Attacking for the Sole Reason that Someone is Offline is Dishonorable Play

[Canto]

I believe this issue is important, and so am starting a separate thread from the "reset land control areas" thread that it originated in.

I believe that to attack towers for the primary reason that you know the tower owners are offline and not likely to come online soon is at best dishonorable play, and at worst, cheating.

To clarify, it is wrong to place primary strategic importance on the fact that someone is offline when planning an attack; there is nothing "generally" wrong, however, with attacking people who are offline.

For example, an attack at 9AM GMT on a Monday morning would be wrong if the attacker purposefully picked that time because it expected that few defenders would be logged on to defend.

If NW evolves into a game that requires you to maintain some constant connection with the game to avoid losing items/ground in the game due to dishonorable tactics, then I will find another game, and I suspect many feel the same way.

What are others' thoughts on this?

[______________Thromp]

Nice thought, but this isn't a court of law and we couldn't ever prove the attackers intent. It's not like we could hook everyone up to a lie detector.

Did you attack the opposing base because you just happened to be up and playing at 4 in the morning and thought it would be fun?

-Yes *BZZZZZZZ*

Did you purposely set your alarm to get up and attack at 4 AM because you knew your opponents base would be undefended?

-No *BZZZZZZZ*

You have been found guilty of attacking an opposing base with dishonorable intent and are hereby banned from AO.

Besides, the org gets to choose what time their towers are attackable. A time the greatest number of your members are online is a wise choice.

[___________Nightwish]

Lol sorry, but I guess you oughta make sure, you can defend a base you have built...

If it is dishonorable or whatever does not matter.. You place your controller by some time and you gotta make sure, you can defend it..

It is the same with all those whiners, building bases in a ql they dont have ppl in to defend it...

Just build the damn thing when you CAN be online.

[Coldstrike]

Controllers go 25% at the exact same time every day, and it lasts for the exact same time every day. It is simply a matter of timing the placement at the right time so that the 25% falls into the prime time for most of your guild. Sounds easy, but I guess it's not always that easy to do.

Being a game played all over the world, in pretty much every time zone, a portion of the players are always going to be asleep. And people can not really go around keeping track of who is sleeping and who is not just to be considered fair. One must simply assume that the owners of a base placed it to have the 25% in their prime time, and if not then tough luck.

I do however think that a mechanism that allows the owners of a base to change the gas schedule would be good. To avoid it being too exploitable, it would have to move the gas change closer in time rather than pushing it back. And also possibly have a delay of a day or two so that it doesn't let people escape an already planned attack by changing the gas schedule. But chances of a system like this ever being implemented is close to none, so just make sure you place the towers correctly from now on.

[Warboc]

Originally posted by Sanskrit

I believe that to attack towers for the primary reason that you know the tower owners are offline and not likely to come online soon is at best dishonorable play, and at worst, cheating.

Hmm... in modern warfare, most offensives are done at night when the enemy is more likely to be asleep and such. War in game is no different. In war, you take every strategic advantage you can get I suppose.

[iloveposting]

Bah warboc you cant relate a GAME to REAL LIFE the time on RK is way different and well :P you dont have to wait for certain times to attack. Oh no sorry we cant bomb *country* they are in 100%

[Nenous]

MY FRIENDS WILL KILL U!

[Kuro]

Here everyone. This is an arguement from another thread. The point where Sanskrit ticked me off is where he makes the accusation that timing an attack for when defenders are not online is cheating and exploiting.

Very long argument made short: he has an 'Honor Code' for playing games. I do not, so long as my actions are within the rules of the game.

Am I a honorless dog? By Sanskrit's definition, yes I am. But I can live with that

Am I a cheater or an exploiter? No, I am not. And I cannot live with being called such because I don't follow someone else's 'Honor Code'

Even if I did follow Sanskrit's 'Honor Code', do I think it's possible to adhere to it in land control fights? No, I do not. The 'Persistant' nature of the AO world, the variations in schedules forced by the 'Massively Multiplayer' nature of the game, and the 'Persistant Object' nature of controller towers (they exist 24/7 until destroyed) will always create a window of opportunity for attacks of this nature.

[Sheffy]

Wow, get over it.

Someone plays the game differently than you do, Sanskrit. It'll never be considered illegal, cheating, or an exploit by Funcom because of the simple reasons already posted in this thread.

A base's "vulnerable" time window is up to the guild which owns it. If they aren't online to defend it, that's their fault due to their poor planning.

Pretty simple.

[Jaesic]

I disagree that this is cheating or an exploit (but do think its a rather dirty technique)... either way, I'd like to point out that its one more reason why we're all gonna end up in a couple giant guilds. If there are only twenty people in a guild trying to hold a base, it would be fairly likely that at least 1 day in 7, not enough of them are going to be online to defend the base... or get enough outsiders to want to help them... and people using this technique will take their base.

Only a guild large enough to have sufficient people online every single day of the week has the slightest chance of keeping territory... and thats a sad state of affairs. I already shifted from being non-org affiliated so I could be involved (and get some value for the money I spent)... looks like there might have to be more changes in my near future.

Jaesic
172 NT (rk2)

[Canto]

1) This is not a war but a wargame; purposefully taking advantage of a time when you know your opponent is not at the gaming table is what I am talking about.

2) Gas is not that "simple." Regardless of the size of the org or the gas schedule there will be times when it is possible to plan an attack with the specific intent of attacking when the opponent is not playing.

3) No FC will not make it an exploit to do this, but they will most likely change the way gas works once some customers get riled over this.

4) It is not a matter of playing the game differently, but of taking unfair advantage of the time when your opponent is NOT playing.

5) Whether or not you can "prove" someone's motive for scheduling an attack at a certain time is irrelevant.

6) Jaesic comes closest to my point of view when he says it is "dirty" play. This is my position and until someone comes up with a convincing argument that it is not dirty play that I agree with, I will continue to hold my present opinion.

7) I suspect that many people do feel pangs of consciousness when they resort to these kinds of tactics which explains alot of the defensiveness exhibited here.

[skybert]

Originally posted by Sheffy
Wow, get over it.

Someone plays the game differently than you do, Sanskrit. It'll never be considered illegal, cheating, or an exploit by Funcom because of the simple reasons already posted in this thread.

A base's "vulnerable" time window is up to the guild which owns it. If they aren't online to defend it, that's their fault due to their poor planning.

Pretty simple.

what about shield disrupters?
Won't those items bring the towers to 25% gas, and attackable? Or are those items in newbie backyards just useless?

Or do you need to use the disrupter-thingies while the gas allready is 25%?

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jaesic
I disagree that this is cheating or an exploit (but do think its a rather dirty technique)... either way, I'd like to point out that its one more reason why we're all gonna end up in a couple giant guilds. If there are only twenty people in a guild trying to hold a base, it would be fairly likely that at least 1 day in 7, not enough of them are going to be online to defend the base... or get enough outsiders to want to help them... and people using this technique will take their base.

Only a guild large enough to have sufficient people online every single day of the week has the slightest chance of keeping territory... and thats a sad state of affairs. I already shifted from being non-org affiliated so I could be involved (and get some value for the money I spent)... looks like there might have to be more changes in my near future.

Jaesic
172 NT (rk2)

If things are implemented corrrectly and expediently, the thing you're afraid of could be the catalyst for something even better. Land control is going to force changes in the underlying org infrastructure, like it or not. But done properly, orgs can maintain their identity while simulaneously turning the 2 (or 3, depending on who you talk to) factions into real factions.

As things stand, with no formal alliance system between orgs, then you're prolly correct. MegaOrgs are prolly the only solution to the defense problem. That or Funcom watering bases down so much they remove any fun associated with them. But alliances for mutual protection of each other assets would allow the individual orgs to maintain their identity, yet receive the protection of a MegaOrg. And the inter-org politics such a system would create would also provide substance to the game.

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


If things are implemented corrrectly and expediently, the thing you're afraid of could be the catalyst for something even better. Land control is going to force changes in the underlying org infrastructure, like it or not. But done properly, orgs can maintain their identity while simulaneously turning the 2 (or 3, depending on who you talk to) factions into real factions.

As things stand, with no formal alliance system between orgs, then you're prolly correct. MegaOrgs are prolly the only solution to the defense problem. That or Funcom watering bases down so much they remove any fun associated with them. But alliances for mutual protection of each other assets would allow the individual orgs to maintain their identity, yet receive the protection of a MegaOrg. And the inter-org politics such a system would create would also provide substance to the game.

Agreed... and the level of cooperation by factions has already improved over the pre-NW days.

Still, there are plenty of orgs that are base-less suffering pretty significant difference in power levels purely because orgs on the other side (or even their own side in some cases) aren't afraid to resort to working the system to their benefit. Ultimately, there isn't enough land to go around... which will force consolidation (already has). Knowing that people can attack you when you're weak simply by checking your org roster and a buddy list is only going to encourage that. I guess it really comes down to a question of whether its good or bad that many small guilds will be absorbed.

We could save FC the effort and just reform into a handful of guilds on each side so each group has all 5 base types and everyone gets max bonuses...



Jaesic
172 NT (rk2)

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sanskrit
1) This is not a war but a wargame; purposefully taking advantage of a time when you know your opponent is not at the gaming table is what I am talking about.

2) Gas is not that "simple." Regardless of the size of the org or the gas schedule there will be times when it is possible to plan an attack with the specific intent of attacking when the opponent is not playing.

3) No FC will not make it an exploit to do this, but they will most likely change the way gas works once some customers get riled over this.

4) It is not a matter of playing the game differently, but of taking unfair advantage of the time when your opponent is NOT playing.

5) Whether or not you can "prove" someone's motive for scheduling an attack at a certain time is irrelevant.

6) Jaesic comes closest to my point of view when he says it is "dirty" play. This is my position and until someone comes up with a convincing argument that it is not dirty play that I agree with, I will continue to hold my present opinion.

7) I suspect that many people do feel pangs of consciousness when they resort to these kinds of tactics which explains alot of the defensiveness exhibited here.

ROFL...I'm going to let you off the hook now, Sanskrit. May you find support for your 'Honor Code' where you may.

What I will say is it IS a game. Nothing more. And as such, it is not deserving of such weighty topics as 'Honor' and 'Morality'. In a game I can be as ruthless, devious and all around as Evil as I desire, free to do as I please as the rules allow.

You're actually taking this far more seriously than I do which is why I am free to sack, pillage and plunder with a clear conscious while you are sleeping. And you are not able to do so in return.

And in Real Life, depending on the situation, I am this ruthless, devious and all around Evil in the actions I decide are justified. My Moral Compass points to "Whatever It Takes", given justification. But I'm, usually, a great ally to have...If you can stomach the mayhem

P.S.
No, I'm no criminal nor am I a lawyer.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jaesic


Agreed... and the level of cooperation by factions has already improved over the pre-NW days.

Still, there are plenty of orgs that are base-less suffering pretty significant difference in power levels purely because orgs on the other side (or even their own side in some cases) aren't afraid to resort to working the system to their benefit. Ultimately, there isn't enough land to go around... which will force consolidation (already has). Knowing that people can attack you when you're weak simply by checking your org roster and a buddy list is only going to encourage that. I guess it really comes down to a question of whether its good or bad that many small guilds will be absorbed.

We could save FC the effort and just reform into a handful of guilds on each side so each group has all 5 base types and everyone gets max bonuses...



Jaesic
172 NT (rk2)

Well I opposed the whole 'absorbtion' solution. I like my identity. Which is why I push for an alliance system that allows people to maintain their org's identity.

But the consolidation overall is a good thing, imo. Pre-Notum Wars, the lack of shared goals pretty much relegated being Clan or Omni to "Who has better supermarkets?". The situation still isn't what I'd like it to be. But with orgs allying themselves for protection and attack, the situation is improving. The org leaders channel is starting to have more of a purpose than the silly "My plasmaburner is bigger than yours" junk that went on a lot before

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

You're actually taking this far more seriously than I do which is why I am free to sack, pillage and plunder with a clear conscious while you are sleeping. And you are not able to do so in return.

And in Real Life, depending on the situation, I am this ruthless, devious and all around Evil in the actions I decide are justified. My morale compass points to "Whatever It Takes", given justification. But I'm, usually a great ally to have...If you can stomach the mayhem

Fortunately, this is a game... so no one is likely to hold you accountable.

As to real life... you can believe the "ends justifies the means" as much as you like... but ultimately, someone or something will call you on it.

Most of the other things I'd like to say to this I won't... you won't believe them even if you do understand them... and I'll come across sounding like an even more pompous jerk than I already have.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jaesic


Fortunately, this is a game... so no one is likely to hold you accountable.

As to real life... you can believe the "ends justifies the means" as much as you like... but ultimately, someone or something will call you on it.

Most of the other things I'd like to say to this I won't... you won't believe them even if you do understand them... and I'll come across sounding like an even more pompous jerk than I already have.

My boss and I were having a 'discussion' a couple days ago. We happened to be having it in front of a lot of people at the time. He asked me if I remembered what he said the last time we had a similiar discussion (his exact words were "I don't care what you think if my mind is already made up"). I responded yes I remembered. So he asked why we were having that conversation? My reply:

"Because I'm ignoring you"

Later that day, after we had both cooled off, I apologized to him in front of the same group of people for my rude statement...without him prompting me or threatening to fire me for gross insubordination.

I have no problems being held accountable for my actions. That's my Honor Code. And yes, the ends do justify the means if the alternative ends are bad enough.

But again, this is a game and really not deserving of questioning people's morality and honor over what happens to a few bits and bytes....

[_____________Losobal]

I do see the potential exploiting that could occur if you introduce a system to push forward the gas cycle. A defender could take advantage of timing. Where attackers may play to attack when defenders aren't online, a defender could cycle the gas forward to make the tower vulnerable during a time attackers aren't online.

Ah well

[Snuble]

You can only attack when the tower is 25%, and its a 5 hour window. So when you get attacked, its the defenders problem if they don't have enough people online. Period.

It would perhaps be more interesting if the defender could choose when the tower went to 25%.

We can start by assuming that every mine need to bleed off some presure from time to time. That causes 25% reduction to the gas level of the tower. Lets say you need to bleed every controller for 5 hours every 24 hours to keep it from blowing up (too much pressure == BOOOOM). To let a guild have some downtime (weekends,mondays whatever), make it 10 hours every 72 hours. /tower bleed will start a 5 hour 25% cycle.

That will make things more difficult for the attacker. So to balance it up, /tower bleed sends a message to the tower channel *XXX's tower in XXX is now bleeding*.

Now the defender can adjust the 25% to their own play window, and there is always someone willing to attack.