"Fair" Review for NW at Gamespot

**Detonate** · Dec 18th, 2002, 15:24:22

Originally posted by Cyani
My guild lost our bases to the likes of guilds Legion, Mayhem, First Order, Renesaince, Band of Brothers, Pheonix Consortium RHD etc..

Oh come on now. Did you have to name First Order by name?

It would have been less letters to say Craff Vorp than First Order. Since those are the only 2 members of my org that were there when you lost your base.

**Nenous** · Dec 18th, 2002, 17:48:57

Originally posted by Jynne[B]
2 - Camp Tarasque for extended periods of time for loot, probably for months, in fact, to make up a portion of the equipment gap.

Originally posted by Divinecross
Equipment does make huge difference as one person of same profession will have near twice as much hp due equipment and varies other twinking items.

Jynne stated that it's Tarasque that creates the equipment gap. I stated that there is no equipment gap created by Tarasque.

HP? Smugglers Den, and last time I checked, you can waltz in there anytime and go get yourself some uba armor. The mobs are waiting for you.

Other twinking items? Like the ones from uniques that we killed yesterday with just 4 people? Seriously. Not every unique in the game requires a full blown parade. Do some research.

THERE IS NO GAP CREATED BY TARASQUE.

Full body gear for my soldier:
Decranum MKII - SD
Albrecht Tank - mission
Dodga Quest Pads - quest
x2 Kaehler Sleeves - unique
TL6 Projectile Bracer - unique
TL6 Elements Bracer (i think, might be the other one protecting unorthodox damage types) - unique
TL6 Ring of Luck - Defensive - mission
Either an energy ring (mob drop) or the soldier ring - unique
TIM Scope - unique

2 Kaehler sleeves add +72 attack rating.
2 Bracers provide a bit of reflection vs. Manex and Sol Fires
1 Soldier Ring I wear because it adds treatment and lets me use these emergency treatment labs that I have that are just a bit out of range that I COULD put IP into to get.
1 TIM scope that any band of level 110s could win most of the time.

So there you have it, +72 attack rating, some 7% reflection, and a TIM scope as a result of uniques.

The gap exists because of laziness, not uniques. Get your people outfitted with MKII armor, albrechts and Dodga pads.

!

**Jynne** · Dec 18th, 2002, 17:59:08

You are omitting the GPH though, and for healers and nukers, at least, it does make more than a negligible difference. I guess there really isn't much off Tara for a soldier, but we aren't all soldiers

Tarasque alone doesn't create an immense equipment gap, and I didn't note SD because, as you said, it's a whole other ballgame where you'll eventually outfit any number of people through persistence.

But, to put it simply: An org whose members had been working on acquiring the best gear in the game (at that time) for several months, will have an advantage that cannot be matched overnight.

**cellestron** · Dec 18th, 2002, 18:13:01

Actually, in addition to the points Jynne mentioned, there are some other flaws that will prevent smaller orgs from competing.

The biggest drawback right now for the small guilds is getting to the battle. In my (limited) experience with NW so far, it is evident why the big guys attack these smaller orgs......there is simply no way for them to mount any kind of defense in time.

Our one attempt at building a 150+ tower was destroyed by Omni-tek the day after it was built. And while not a "top tier" guild, we are pretty close. We were able to bring 20+ high level guild members into the battle within minutes and still got slaughtered. The problem? Our base was in Upper Stret East Bank. Only 4 people outside of our guild were even able to get there in time to be of any help.

The big guilds know that only guild members can go through the tower grid exit, so if your guild only has 50-100 people in it total, they know, even if you have a million friends, if the big guild attacks quick you are done for............and as the larger guilds get even larger, this is only going to get worse.

Who wants to attack Storm or CAS when the know that 50+ people can appear out of the tower, when they can attack Whisper's Edge, Unity of the rose, scions,or the MD or any other smaller guild and know that maybe 10 will be able to make it, and that thier allies will spend a good 5-10 minutes just trying to get there. In EVERY case where I have come to the defense of another clan...the attack was either repulsed or the tower destroyed before I even got there.

So even if medium to small guilds are able to build a tower, they better make dammed sure it is close to a whompa or grid exit if they want any hope of keeping it.

I truly believe that until this issue is addressed by FC in some way (guilds need ways to bring in allies quick.....and no, beacon warp is not the answer), the large guilds will continue to get larger as they acquire more towers and people, and the small guilds will continue to lose out.

Right now, tower battles are either even or slightly favor the attacker(if they are organized). This philosophy is wrong. They should favor the defender....heavily, and until they do there is really no use to bother with towers unless you are a member of a 300+ person guild.

**Nenous** · Dec 18th, 2002, 18:46:36

Alright then, I give up trying to provide solutions.

You are Afghanistan trying to defend yourselves from the United States. Outmanned, outgunned, outexperienced, outresourced.

You have zero chance. None. Zilch. Nada. Not in your wildest dreams could you withstand an attack from the best Omni will bring at you. So pack your **** up, skippy.

Stop thinking about building your own towers. You will at best, be a supporting force, if any, for the rest of your org's existance.
You want the benefits of a smaller organization without the downsides - well wake up, it's not going to happen. You want to be buddy buddy with everyone in your org, then go to the Happy Rebel and drink tea out of teacups for the rest of your AO life. Talk about your real lives and ask each other how your families and work are.

Hang around grid terminals and whompas, offering buffs for tips. Blitzing QL174 items for 358k, and standing around in the box room every now and then. Because that's all you have to look forward to.

Keep beating off the positive and you're asking for the negative. =P

**cellestron** · Dec 18th, 2002, 19:05:00

Originally posted by Nen Nen
Alright then, I give up trying to provide solutions.

You are Afghanistan trying to defend yourselves from the United States. Outmanned, outgunned, outexperienced, outresourced.

You have zero chance. None. Zilch. Nada. Not in your wildest dreams could you withstand an attack from the best Omni will bring at you. So pack your **** up, skippy.

Stop thinking about building your own towers. You will at best, be a supporting force, if any, for the rest of your org's existance.
You want the benefits of a smaller organization without the downsides - well wake up, it's not going to happen. You want to be buddy buddy with everyone in your org, then go to the Happy Rebel and drink tea out of teacups for the rest of your AO life. Talk about your real lives and ask each other how your families and work are.

Hang around grid terminals and whompas, offering buffs for tips. Blitzing QL174 items for 358k, and standing around in the box room every now and then. Because that's all you have to look forward to.

Keep beating off the positive and you're asking for the negative. =P

Actually, I have no idea what you are talking about. BDS has 200+ members, many are high level and well equipped. If we do not stand a better than average chance of repulsing an attack, no matter how strong it is, then there is something seriously wrong with the system.

It sounds to me like you think FC owes the larger guilds something when it comes to towers. Well they don't. If you have the money to buy a tower, then you should be able to reasonably protect it.

Also keep in mind...only the DEFENDER is guild specific. The attackers can easily be made up of several guilds. The defending force, initially, cannot. This is a HUGE advantage, and quite frankly, one that is being exploited to death right now.

**Nenous** · Dec 18th, 2002, 19:24:25

Buzzer.

Also keep in mind...only the DEFENDER is guild specific. The attackers can easily be made up of several guilds. The defending force, initially, cannot. This is a HUGE advantage, and quite frankly, one that is being exploited to death right now.

Wrong.

The attackers plan their attack based upon the time your gas switches. You have the same option of gathering people based upon the time your gas switches. Stop being reactive and be proactive.

Plant a few moles to find out who and when they're attacking.

They are coordinating. YOU COORDINATE. This is not some XBOX game that doesn't require you to get off your ass. People asked for war - and they f'n got it.

And for the record, I used to be a member of the Rebels and I didn't and still do not believe FC owes the Rebels a tower base. We analyzed ourselves and recognized that in our state, building a NW base was not feasible. We didn't *****, we lived with it. And many participate in NW by assisting other organizations.

**Jynne** · Dec 18th, 2002, 19:29:06

Originally posted by Nen Nen
Alright then, I give up trying to provide solutions.

You are Afghanistan trying to defend yourselves from the United States. Outmanned, outgunned, outexperienced, outresourced.

You have zero chance. None. Zilch. Nada. Not in your wildest dreams could you withstand an attack from the best Omni will bring at you. So pack your **** up, skippy.

Stop thinking about building your own towers. You will at best, be a supporting force, if any, for the rest of your org's existance.
You want the benefits of a smaller organization without the downsides - well wake up, it's not going to happen. You want to be buddy buddy with everyone in your org, then go to the Happy Rebel and drink tea out of teacups for the rest of your AO life. Talk about your real lives and ask each other how your families and work are.

Hang around grid terminals and whompas, offering buffs for tips. Blitzing QL174 items for 358k, and standing around in the box room every now and then. Because that's all you have to look forward to.

Keep beating off the positive and you're asking for the negative. =P

This is, essentially, what I predict is going to happen, Nenous. Of course we're trying to do what we can to avoid it. I actually view equipment as the smallest and most easily overcome obstacle.

But I still don't see creating a 'collective' in the way you suggest as a highly realistic option. And the real obstacle is the obstacle of motivation, not of mechanics.

The members of smaller/middle guilds who are interested in playing for power, will want to leave for a power guild when they've advanced sufficiently in level to do so. Really, this is the way it has always worked - when someone gets uber enough and feels held back by their current org, they leave (after agonizing about it for a while, perhaps) for a bigger one.

These people would somehow have to be motivated not to leave, and to fight frequently and against strong opponents in order to maintain a weaker and less beneficial base than they could have as part of a different organization. In other words, you have to motivate them to make a real 'in-game sacrifice' of their time and effort in order to fight for smaller bonuses than they feel they should have, and the fighting takes them away from personal advancement in the meantime.

The people who play for socializing or who play casually, on the other hand, won't care, or won't be able, to work hard and fight hard for towers that, in their view, offer them fairly unimportant(though nice) statistical benefits. These people would have to be somehow motivated to engage in pvp (which is generally something they despise on principle) for the sake of statistical benefits that don't really matter to them.

Tensions between people of these two essentially polarized viewpoints on are a lot more likely to result in organizations splitting up, than their banding together.

**cellestron** · Dec 18th, 2002, 20:14:56

Originally posted by Nen Nen
Buzzer.

Wrong.

The attackers plan their attack based upon the time your gas switches. You have the same option of gathering people based upon the time your gas switches. Stop being reactive and be proactive.

And how, exactly, are you supposed to convince a group to wait around for an attack that *maybe* will happen.

Try it with the friends of your guild, seriously, tell me how many are willing to sit at your tower for 3-4 hours.

Planting moles is not reliable, and to even consider that as a way to successfully mount a defense is bullcrap. Not all of us have hours of spare time to camp enemy guild chat channels.

Furthermore, I will NOT stop being reactive. Defense of a tower is exactly that.....a reaction to an attack. I am not suggesting that things be brought to the point to where a well thought out attack is easily stopped, but as it stands now there is almost little or no planning required to take down towers of a small to medium guild.

As far as "YOU COORDINATE" goes, that is EXACTLY my point......there is no way for defenders to coordinate outside of their own guild.

**cellestron** · Dec 18th, 2002, 20:18:24

oh yeah...as far as your comments about the Rebels go, we totally came to a similar conclusion. It's sad that we had to, as both guilds, based on their numbers, should have no problems participating.

btw, I take it you are no longer with the Rebels. Guess you moved on to a larger guild?..........................

**Nenous** · Dec 18th, 2002, 21:59:31

I was under the impression that the gas fluctuation did not open for 3-4 hours. I thought the window was much much smaller. It only stays open if the base is under attack? Perhaps I am wrong

I would sit at my own base to defend, or an allies base to defend, if the service was returned. And this is why I stated my point about a mole. A mole can discover who they're planning to attack, so that your defenses are not wasted on parties that will never arrive.

And no, I am no longer Advisor to the Rebels. They were my passion, the reason that I continued to play this game. But I feed off of an org-first, self-second mentality that was simply no longer being practiced by the majority of Rebels. And on top of that, many Rebels were more concerned about public opinion than strengthening the organization.

My ideals no longer coincided with the ideals of the organization.
Not sure what leads you to believe I went to a larger org and for any specific reason? I am guildless at the moment and have not pursued any new orgs.

Nenous

**_____________Rebbeca** · Dec 18th, 2002, 22:18:13

Bases are 25% for 5 hours, then 5% for 1 hour. After that they go 100% for 18hr.

Babysitting your base for 6hrs out of the day sucks plain and simple.

**Nenous** · Dec 18th, 2002, 22:21:49

Mmm, then I retract my statement about proactive defense and continue to support the fact that you're SOL now. =D

**Jynne** · Dec 18th, 2002, 22:28:24

Originally posted by Rebbeca
Bases are 25% for 5 hours, then 5% for 1 hour. After that they go 100% for 18hr.

Babysitting your base for 6hrs out of the day sucks plain and simple.

Holy sweet Mother of Jesus.

Rebbeca and I agree entirely on something. Quick, someone - take a screenshot

**_____________Rebbeca** · Dec 18th, 2002, 22:37:17

lol I also liked your idea about a one time reset of the gas on your base to allow you to pick when it goes 25%.. but don't worry, still don't agree with you about healing in 25% zones

**Jynne** · Dec 18th, 2002, 22:48:22

Originally posted by Rebbeca
lol I also liked your idea about a one time reset of the gas on your base to allow you to pick when it goes 25%.. but don't worry, still don't agree with you about healing in 25% zones

That's fine... though I think I've been highly misunderstood on this issue by people thinking I want it removed for the purpose of beating around newbies, which is completely untrue. I want it removed and replaced with something that isn't just stupid, and that does accomplish its goals. Take the following examples:

I've already been in a battle, by the by, where a level ~120 Clanner was being shot by a level ~150 Omni. I could attack the Omni, and did - but I couldn't heal the Clanner he was shooting, and she died. I wasn't trying to heal her against someone who couldn't attack me instead, or against someone who (according the PvP bracket) wasn't "my size." My comrade was in my target's PvP range, but not in mine.

Divinecross posted about a situation where she was fighting a level 170 Omni, who got help in the form of a heal pet and chain-layers from level 140s that she couldn't do anything about. They were in her target's PvP range, but not in hers.

Oh, and if it came to it, I could heal someone who was level 135 while they fought someone who was level 134, and the 134 couldn't attack me. That's a hypothetical example, granted, but it does illustrate how the system doesn't actually accomplish the goal of preventing "the untouchable healer/helper" screwing with battles, but (as in the above examples) does put people at a disadvantage on the notum wars battlefields as a result of leveling.

Doctors especially - I'm a more useful healer to a mixed-leveled battle group at level 170, than a level 200 doctor is - but it does go for everyone, and it will work against both high level and low level people.

**_____________Rebbeca** · Dec 18th, 2002, 22:57:48

Yep I am quiet aware of your arguement.. the only solution I see is to lower the free for all range down somewhat. But do you really want the big high level orgs dominating even more of NW?

**Nenous** · Dec 18th, 2002, 23:10:00

Not sure if anyone has tried this or not but here goes concerning the doc issue:

Doesn't everyone in a team inherit the PvP range of the highest player? I assume that if a 200 doctor teamed with a level 25 enforcer, that the doctor could heal the enforcer in a LC area.

So if you want to help your teammates who are not in your PvP range, why don't you team with them to bring them up in range?

This way...
1) You can heal everyone in your team
2) Anyone that can attack your team, can also attack the doctor.
3) Your team can attack anyone that is attacking their doctor.

I don't know about you, but this DOES make sense to me.

**cellestron** · Dec 18th, 2002, 23:10:44

Originally posted by Nen Nen
Mmm, then I retract my statement about proactive defense and continue to support the fact that you're SOL now. =D

heh ok, I think we can agree on that.

**Jynne** · Dec 18th, 2002, 23:35:47

Originally posted by Rebbeca
Yep I am quiet aware of your arguement.. the only solution I see is to lower the free for all range down somewhat. But do you really want the big high level orgs dominating even more of NW?

That's partly the problem I brought up earlier, Rebbeca - the big high level orgs will essentially dominate NW for QL 150+, if not ql 100+, regardless of what limits are applied to healing or attacking.

I like the idea of tagging rules or limits to the QL of the notum field, or maybe the controller, rather than to any individual players' levels, as I brought up in the now-locked thread. I'm not entirely sure how to make it work - my idea was to have it so that if the area being fought over could support QL 150 or higher towers, there are no rules on attacking or on helping. Otherwise, use limits.

Another idea is to allow free-for-all combat within the following parameters: low end of the PvP range for the area is equal to the low end of the pvp range for the lowest level tower you can build there, while the high end of the PvP range is equal to the high end of the highest level tower that can be built there. So if you're in a level 100-150 area, people who are level 80 to level 186 (I think) can fight without restriction, while people who aren't between those levels can't fight at all, or can only fight inside their PvP range.

It'd take some more thought I'm not willing to put into it while I'm getting ready to leave the office, but my main point remains that the level limits for fighting in an LC area should probably relate to the level of the LC area itself, should be broad enough to let a wide cross-section of people participate, and should result in the absolute minimum of "Action failed because the target (or their highest level teammate) was outside of your PvP bracket" messages.

So, to be fuzzy, "something like that" is probably the most 'workable' way to ensure more-or-less fair fights without excessively encumbering, exploitable, annoying, and illogical rules. And if low level people don't want to get flattened by higher level combatants, it's as easy as staying out of the higher level areas during a battle.

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