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Thread: "Fair" Review for NW at Gamespot

  1. #41
    I can't believe you are still bickering about that healing issue.

    Because it's a non-issue. In you above example all the other clanner had to do was team with someone 150.

    Not even you. ANYONE 150.

    A little preperation goes a long way.

    I bring my wife, a level 100 doc with me on 150+ tower raids all the time. I just team with her, and she can heal anyone up to level 200. But at the same time, she can be attacked by anyone up to level 200.

    In addition to having my wife in the team, I also make sure that I have someone 150 in my team on a 150 tower raid, so that I can recieve heals from a level 200 Omni doc.

    If that person wants to be healed by someone outside of his PVP bracket, he need to open himself up for attack by people outside of his PVP bracket. It's 100% as simple as that.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  2. #42
    Detonate, try reading before you start flaming. Don't you ever get tired of being a clueless troll? I'll try informing you one last time before I write you off as a short-bus student.

    THIS CHANGE DOESN'T PREVENT THE 'UNTOUCHABLE HELPER' PROBLEM. People who are outside my PVP range can still help targets who are inside my PVP range, and I can still help people that are in my PvP range, while I am outside the range of their attacker. Get it yet? It doesn't fix the problem!

    Now, to directly refute your "Oh, just team up" statement:

    DEFENDERS CANNOT PREPARE TEAMS BEFOREHAND. Only the owner guild can grid to their tower, other people arrive there one at a time in yalmahas and don't have any chance to team up - because, hello stupid, you can't join a team while you or someone in the team has any aggro. So even if the owner guild teams up before gridding in - which will take them time they won't have, if the base they're trying to save is under ql 200 - all their friends still won't have teams.

    So what - the defense should sacrifice 1/4 to 1/2 of their base in order to have time to figure out and assemble the best team structures for exploiting the rules? Did you get dropped on your head a lot as a baby?
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  3. #43
    BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

    I just figured it out. You have absolutely no clue how to PVP.

    BWAHAHAHAA!!!!!

    If you are defender, and you guys aren't teaming up. You're an idiot!!!

    BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

    No wonder why you keep loosing your bases.

    BWAHAHAHA!!!
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  4. #44
    People get into whatever team they can and then try, you know, to save their base. They don't sit around saying, "Okay I need a level whatever here so we can exploit the pvp brackets to our biggest advantage. Oh, ignore those three turrets exploding, we need to get these exploits right."

    If that is how these battles are going to be decided, and if that is how PvP is "supposed to be" - then screw it, gimme back my $20 for NW and for all I care you can have every base on the planet.

    Woohoo, battle of the overcomplicated-rules-exploiters!

    EDIT: PS - if you have your guild sitting around your towers teamed up in full exploit array already for the six hours that your base is vulnerable...

    BWAHAHAHAHHAHA!! You're an idiot! But I bet you're really, really good at windows solitaire!
    Last edited by Jynne; Dec 19th, 2002 at 17:04:21.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  5. #45
    Yes, you do form teams while you base is blowing up. That is exactly what you do.

    Lemme guess, you also charge into battle completely self buffed?

    Yes? No?

    So walk me through what happens when you first get the message that your base is being attacked.

    PS. Saying that teaming with people outside of your PVP brackets is an exploit is idiotic to say the least. It is a high risk with advantages and disadvantages that are apparent to all.

    If I am level 100 and I team with a level 200. I can no longer fight anyone except people 150-200. This RISK, far out weighs the advantage of being able to recieve heals from a level 200 doc.

    It is up to YOU and anyone else in the raid to decide which is more important, and which is most beneficial.
    Last edited by Detonate; Dec 19th, 2002 at 17:19:25.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  6. #46
    Generally speaking the people who can get there fastest, do, for the following three reasons:

    1 - Make sure it's not a fake or mistake attack.

    2 - Get an idea of who and what is attacking and if we need to get outside help. (In many locations if you don't ask for help right away, the battle might be over before help arrives).

    3 - Annoy, harrass, and slow down attackers if possible. Obviously committing suicide against a huge force is discouraged here. But if a trader can land a few drains, or I can get in a palsy, or a fixer an area snare... you get the idea.

    The rest of us grid in and team up around the controller, pass out the buffs that we can cast, and then go to it. Often at least a few of us will be in a team from playing, so that helps. If we do have to get outside help, we try to get them in teams during lulls, if there are any and they don't team up on their own initiative. This is higher priority, of course, during the 5% period.

    Basically, we do the best we can given the limitations of the transit to controller and the fact that people are going to be arriving at different times. I've said it before, I'll say it again - attackers have the advantage of knowing the time and the place, which translates into having an advantage in terms of buffs, numbers, and 'perfect teams.'

    When we go to help other guilds, we try to go as a team, regroup around their controller or at the edge of the battlefield depending on the situation, and wait to enter the battle until the whole team is there.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  7. #47
    Ok, now let me tell you what we do. And it's been very succesful.

    First of all, we know when our base goes 25%. We do not sit around our base for 6 hours, but we do keep in mind that an attack may come, and for that reason keep on our guard.

    i.e. if my base is 25% and I'm NOT doing anything, I may keep myself buffed, as well as bug other people for RRFE, Essence, etc...

    If I want to play my alt, I'll make sure and keep my main logged out near a grid terminal. Same if I'm playing my main, I'll fully buff my alt, and log him at a grid terminal.

    So then [org towers] Clan whatever just declared war on First Order. yadda yadda

    I say in guild chat, everyone log on to the omni raids bots, I announce in leader chat that our base is under attack, and we MAY need help. Come to Clon**** if you are available.

    My whole org knows to first drop what they are doing and grid to Clon****.

    There we form teams based on the level of the base we are defending and who is available to help.

    We WAIT there, while I base is being blown up to get at least 2 teams together. If possible we get an engineer warp team together to warp in defenders from other orgs.

    Our teams then grid to our base.

    If the forces are large and not what we expected and have already taken down a good portion of the base. i.e. while standing at the controller we are in PVP range...

    We then move outside of the PVP zone, and keep announcing on Omni Raids bot that we are Meeting west of Land Control area, at roughly XXXX,XXXX in Zone.

    We wait there, yes again, while our towers are being destroyed, until we can match the forces that we are facing. We continute to get buffs and reform teams to best serve the situation. If it's a 150 base, and we are facing 150+ attackers, we do make sure our < 150 defenders have 1 150 in their team.

    Once we can match the attacks, we then move in and attack, while keeping communication open on the Omni Raids chat bot. I know clanners have one of these as well.

    So far the only base we have lost has been the one in Broken Shores.

    This was for several reasons.

    (1) We put up a base right next to the clan wompas.
    (2) Surrounded by clan bases
    (3) It was before the heal "nerf" as you like to call it, and we were unable to scrounge together enough high level healers, as the attackers brought, and we could not kill any of the level 70-100 attackers because of this.

    Had this been after the heal "nerf" we never would have lost this base. In order for those attackers to recieve heals, they would have had to group with the high level people, putting them outside the range to attack the towers.



    It takes a good amount of time to take down a control tower. You have time to prepare.

    When we are attacking a base, the easiest ones to take our from the people that start gridding in 1 by 1, 2 minutes after we start the attack.

    The battles we loose are always the ones where the defenders show up when we have the Control Tower down to about 1/2 health.

    Get with Clan Apocolypse or the Mockers, they know how to defend a base.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  8. #48
    I guess to make a really simple guide to defending a base, the rule of thumb is:

    If you can't match the attacking force, you are going to loose anyway.

    It's best for you to sit outside the PVP area, until you have enough defenders to match or over run the attacking force.

    If your controller is about to blow up, and you have 2 teams, and are facing 6 teams. Run in there and die, sure. But you weren't going to win anyways.

    If you are sitting outside the pvp zone, again 2 team, facing 6 teams. And they are only 1/2 way through your defenses, you HAVE to sit and wait there for more people to come. If you run in there and die, and then 3 more teams show up. You are now 3 teams, against 6, instead of 5 teams, against 6.

    I'm not trying to make you look stupid, I know you already know this. But it doesn't sound like you practice this method from your posts, where you say you don't have time to prepare. You do!

    I can't stress that enough. You do have time to prepare.

    And even if you are 2 teams against 6, and they blow up your controller, and you know that 3 more teams are enroute.

    Let them take it. They will place a new control tower, but it will still be 25%. What for your buddies to show up. Charge in there, place a shield disabler on the controller so they can't place more towers, and go on the offensive. Become attackers, and take your base back.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  9. #49
    Interesting tactic... you're not really "defending" in my opinion... you are forming an attack force to hit back, instead.

    Doesn't waiting cost you a lot of credits though? Sure, credits grow on mission blitzes, but... you get the idea. Does your guild bank pay for the lost personal towers? If not... are your members happy with rebuilding all the time?

    And, lastly, you aren't going to ever convince me where a system that will let me attack someone who's level 140, but won't let me attack the level 130 healing him; or that likewise will let me attack a level 150, but won't let me heal his level 120 target, is a good system

    Or at very least, FC should post the way these rules and brackets work in the launcher so everyone understands why I have to just say "Sorry " when they're screaming, "Heal heal for the love of God Doc heal!" And then, from reclaim, "You suck!"
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  10. #50
    I pay for any attack towers and control towers. Members pay for their own buffing/debuffing towers.

    We've only been attacked maybe 3-4 times... So nobody has got cranky yet.

    I think most people understand that personal towers are a risk. The biggest rick is loosing the control tower. We make very good use of the /org contract and loosing a QL150 base is QL300 worth of org advantages that go bye bye in addition to their personal towers.

    And, lastly, you aren't going to ever convince me where a system that will let me attack someone who's level 140, but won't let me attack the level 130 healing him;
    I know I won't be changing your mind. That is one thing we can agree on.

    This is also a very different example than you've previously presented.

    In this situation you are talking about being able to attack someone, but not being able to attack the LOWER level healer.

    Unfortunatley that can't be solved with teaming, but it also can't be solved with lowering the PVP brackets either.
    or that likewise will let me attack a level 150, but won't let me heal his level 120 target, is a good system
    I still find this fair, because it really up to that level 120 target to prepare his or herself for the enemies that he/she will be facing.

    If there ARE docs his level, he should be good to go. If there are NO docs his level, he needs to make the decision on what's more important, high level heals, or facing high level attackers.
    Last edited by Detonate; Dec 19th, 2002 at 18:19:21.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

  11. #51
    Well, my point's always been that they put in a system that a lot of people don't understand, and sometimes might not be able to figure out on the fly... that has the negative effects of shrinking the utility of a healer as they level, making it more difficult for people to help and heal lower level guildmates, costing defenders time and towers, screwing pet users up royally (and I didn't see that coming at all), and still didn't solve the actual problem.

    The actual problem being based less on the power or level of the person doing the helping, but rather, their immunity to being attacked.

    What FC did was just a hacked-in, shut-them-up band-aid. It took care of the level 200 healing the level 10, yes - it took care of the obvious and egregious abuse. But there are other ways to do that which wouldn't have caused such ugly side effects around level 150 for healers.

    As long as the 'attack bracketing' is tied to the level of people or teams, there are going to be 'untouchable helper' situations. My suggestion has, all along, been to tie it to the level of the land control area instead. That will solve the untouchable helper problem by making it so that you can only affect the battle for the towers if you're in the 'right range' for the area. If you aren't in the right range for the area, you can't help people who are - the upper and lower range for the area are 'hard caps.'

    Sure it means that a level 81 won't be able to attack a level 80 in some cases... but I don't see a fairer way to do it. If we let the ranges overlap based on the individual, there will always be untouchable helpers.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  12. #52
    Originally posted by Detonate
    I guess to make a really simple guide to defending a base, the rule of thumb is:

    If you can't match the attacking force, you are going to loose anyway.

    It's best for you to sit outside the PVP area, until you have enough defenders to match or over run the attacking force.

    If your controller is about to blow up, and you have 2 teams, and are facing 6 teams. Run in there and die, sure. But you weren't going to win anyways.

    If you are sitting outside the pvp zone, again 2 team, facing 6 teams. And they are only 1/2 way through your defenses, you HAVE to sit and wait there for more people to come. If you run in there and die, and then 3 more teams show up. You are now 3 teams, against 6, instead of 5 teams, against 6.

    I'm not trying to make you look stupid, I know you already know this. But it doesn't sound like you practice this method from your posts, where you say you don't have time to prepare. You do!

    I can't stress that enough. You do have time to prepare.

    And even if you are 2 teams against 6, and they blow up your controller, and you know that 3 more teams are enroute.

    Let them take it. They will place a new control tower, but it will still be 25%. What for your buddies to show up. Charge in there, place a shield disabler on the controller so they can't place more towers, and go on the offensive. Become attackers, and take your base back.


    Actually your statements are true only for the very high ql(200-250) towers. Anything less will be blasted into dust before a defending force can even hope to prepare.

    I've seen ql150 towers go in less than 5 minutes.
    Demarcus "Cellestron" Lindner
    Agent, ~Mjlonir~

  13. #53
    LMAO, Detonate. That article linked from your sig is hilarious!

    Hahahahaha
    k- This message has been reviewed by intrusive goons searching for "evil-doers".

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