Discussion: Aimshot & Sneak Attack modifications. Post your thoughts

[Sheffy]

Do you think we could stop asking for nerfs? If Aimed/Sneak are nerfed, it would mean thousands of people would have to, yet again, change weapons because of a huge change in game mechanics. And we all know how much Funcom cares about giving us IPR points when they make such changes.

When will it end..

[p00finger]

Well...well...well...

What a tasty little post! Odian102, I agree with your original post 90%. I'm gonna leave it at that simply 'cuz I'm too tired to go into any detail.

I love the way a simple "discussion" turns into a wet soapbox for the wannabe Intelligencia to stroke their egos and throw around their uninformed assumptions. Probably due to not enough attention as a child or perhaps simple overcompensation for a lack in...well...nevermind.

Get therapy.

Edit: Not directed at Odian102.

[Wildwal]

we haven't really had a good nerf in a while, so sure, why not

[Sheffy]

nerf adventurers.

[______________Hodaka]

The fact is, you sound like a child wanting something from the store. You bring up a topic, no one is interested, and then you just keep beating the dead horse. I only said a few things on IRC, and none of them were to tell you to STFU.. However, plenty of other people were tired of you beating it into the ground.

IF I go PVP, and IF I pick on someone yellowish green, and IF I get a decent AS and a couple of crits, and IF the person cannot heal or doesn't someone healing them, I MIGHT win a PVP battle. I spend a lot of time on my equipment. I don't go to stupid lengths, but at level85, I can equip a ql184 X-3 and with full buffs I'm not OE.. Yet, the other day I fought in a tower battle and won 6 fights and lost more than I could count. I was even forced to go buy more healthkits because I used so many up at reclaim. There are a lot of IF's there, and I'm usually whispering sweet nothings to the reclaim terminal pretty quickly..

If anything, I vote that they raise the damage of AS. I can heal once in a fight with a stim, but have no other heals. We got gimped on health, yet funcom won't let us do what we're good at: A quick sniper kill and run away.. They have done everything they can to prolong PVP, thus hurting the agent the most..

Of course 3 agents on 1 person is going to rock. 3 of any class on one person is going to send them to reclaim. In fact, most of the rest will be able to set off multiple specials, whereas I have an AS about once every 80seconds or so.. and the worst thing is, in PVM, I have to conceal to take an AS. Somehow I can't aim my rifle otherwise.. go figure.. Yet, no other profession must do anything else but click a key to set off their specials.. I think that's pretty lame..

Now, I hope you're happy. I've "discussed" what no one seems to care to discuss, even after you beat the horse to death and beat him again for good measure..

Originally posted by Odian102
Hodaka

thks i needed that.

not everyone agrees with you. In my eyes, thats what Irc and the forums is all about "discussion". You might agree or disagree as long is we are talking about the subject and not attacking the person.

Since, you bring it up. I dont understand why the moderator in the IRC chat would allow comments that personally attack people. like comments: STFU. Even though they didnt spell it out. the message is the same. the intent is the same. Or comments like "go away". All personal attacks.

FYI: The moderator allowed this to happen to the point where I tried to defend myself by saying, "This as a joke, This is the main problem with the ao forums as while" No one can have a discussion without people screaming "nerf, no nerf or STFU".

the comment got me banned from the AO IRC channel.

But the personal attacks that lead up to my comment was ignored-ie STFU or Go Away.

I guess its ok to tell someone to "STFU" as long as you dont have to spell it out.

[Tiggy]

I think im with Hodaka on this one.. in PvP I get one use of my one and only special every 80 or so seconds, I would be pretty pissed off if I had to conceal in the middle of a battle in order to fire it off as I don’t always like to initiate combat with an AS. So after I have started fighting someone you are suggesting I go into sneak to then AS them… naaaa silly idea, would never work, people would be winging like mad as its impossible to go into sneak if you are in combat. I am not willing to have my one and only special crippled in that way.

If you really feel AS needs to be more strongly linked to conceal, then your conceal skill should work in the background in PvP and act as a limiter for the damage multipliers that AS uses… ie if you want to do 10k AS’s then you will need to get your conceal up to 750+ along with your AS. But that would nerf every AS user who wasn’t an agent so I can’t see that being implemented.

I do agree with the principal that agents should be the ones who are best with AS but this will never be the case with the current selection of weapons, implants and the game system itself, as you pointed out the AS recharge on the Ithaca is well fast by comparison to an X-3 it also has a flingshot special too, which gives you two fast recharging specials to my one slow one… perhaps a better solution would be to change the AS recharge on the ithica to 3+ and drop the AS recharge on the x-3 to 1.2 but then all the traders would start using X-3’s instead of Ithaca’s (just like doc’s and NT’s do currently). Unfortunately I would then be left in a place where I was trying to fight an x-3 equipped opponent who was also throwing out devastating nano attacks (nukes, divests, doc debuffs etc) on top of 40% AS’s and good high average damage, so that too is a bad idea.... hang on a sec, its like that already.

Tiggy

[___________carlsberg]

I say No to this idea has only 3 ip reset points left

[______________Jennii]

My thoughts are this.

Fix it so you do NOT have to conceal to do an Aimed Shot.

It's not a sneak shot... it's an Aimed shot, which can also be called a "well placed shot".

I do PVP and also PVM. Some of the UBER mobs that FC has introduced into the game (i'm talking about lvl 300+ mobs) take quite a bit of planning, as well as many people and a lot of time. SOmetimes 30 minutes or more.

1) It is very difficult to use the one and only special some of us have using the rifle. You must constantly un-attack, run out of range, conceal, then move into range, and sometimes that does'nt even work... All the while, Soldiers are fling shot, bursting, and FA,... enforcers get allof thier specials, as well as everyone else. It is very dificult to take an Aimed Shot.

2) For having to conceal to take an aimed shot... That means it's supposed to be a sneaky shot that the mob does not know is coming, there fore really doesn't have a good chance of evading...
Yet...
a) Aimed Shot does not always do uber damage. Sometimes i get lucky and get a 10k. Sometimes i do a 2k. sometimes its right in the middle
b) Seeing that I am sneaking.. and I am supposed to be aiming... It seems like it should do more damage than less damage most of the time. Especially if my attack rating is high. I have seen AS's of 2-3k with an Attack Rating of 1500ish. That's pretty pathetic.

Fix AS to work where you don't have to conceal to use it.... And while your fixing stuff... Nerf that damn Grid Armor already. It's to uber. The only saving grace i have against GA is my AS.

[p00finger]

Let me get this straight, considering openning post. Basically this is what I get out of it.

Under Odian102's suggestion:

AimedShot in PvP becomes Flingshot under the current system. (The Ithaca will go Fling, Fling...instead of AS, Fling.) Unless you pass the concealment checks and are sneaking. Then you have a possibility of getting a higher damage multiplier when performing an AimedShot. High concealment + high AS skill + sneaking = higher than crit AimedShot.

Sounds to me like this would make Agents the masters of AimedShot and if anyone would feel pain...it would be Ithaca users. (At least those without adequate Concealment skill.) That being said, the only class who can crit with an Ithaca, equal to the Crit of an X-3 wielding Agent, is a wrangled up Trader. Thus, only Ithaca Traders would feel any pain from this.

Well...since Agents are supposed to be the masters of AimedShot, it sounds like a good idea to me!!!

Oh, and yes, Agents are supposed to be the masters of AimedShot. We have green AS skill and the best AS buffs in the game. Plus, 99.9% of AS weapons are Rifles. To argue otherwise is an exercise in futility. So don't bother.

[_______________Goode]

Originally posted by Halfnelson

I love the way a simple "discussion" turns into a wet soapbox for the wannabe Intelligencia to stroke their egos and throw around their uninformed assumptions. Probably due to not enough attention as a child or perhaps simple overcompensation for a lack in...well...nevermind.

Get therapy.

I have to disagree with you here a bit. What this 'discussion' entails is a major change in the game dynamics. That wasn't addressed in the original post at all. Despite the original posters intent, this is asking for a nerf. Perhaps with a small bit of compensation, but a nerf none the less. And considering that he has taken it to IRC and started several posts in the forums, I would even go as far as questioning his intent. After reading the first post...you have to assume that there would be flames. I did. One of the reasons why I kept reading. I do like the burden of proof arguement...still not addressed. I see no reason so far why AS and SA need to be nerfed, only an assertion that it should be tied to Concealment. The trader scenario I felt was adequately rebuked yet no response from that either. If I was a judge, I'd have to side with the defendant on this one...

[p00finger]

Originally posted by Goode


I have to disagree with you here a bit. What this 'discussion' entails is a major change in the game dynamics. That wasn't addressed in the original post at all. Despite the original posters intent, this is asking for a nerf. Perhaps with a small bit of compensation, but a nerf none the less. And considering that he has taken it to IRC and started several posts in the forums, I would even go as far as questioning his intent. After reading the first post...you have to assume that there would be flames. I did. One of the reasons why I kept reading. I do like the burden of proof arguement...still not addressed. I see no reason so far why AS and SA need to be nerfed, only an assertion that it should be tied to Concealment. The trader scenario I felt was adequately rebuked yet no response from that either. If I was a judge, I'd have to side with the defendant on this one...

Goode post! Hehe...sorry...not much of a pun.

I see your point entirely. But, since the original poster's first line is Plz post good arguements, discussion, and/or points. No comments like "Nerf, No Nerf, and/or STFU" comments. I feel his intent is a simple discussion outside of "Nerfdom". A discussion of the game dynamic itself...which, like everything else, should be questioned.

I no nothing of the IRC fandango so I'm merely basing my comments on the content of this thread. It seems to have run away from the topic and turned into a comparison of ego's and who took a debate class in highschool and who didn't.

Regardless of who payed attention during the Lincoln v. Douglas lecture, the question of AS/SA dynamic is still popular among the playerbase. All nerfing aside...what's wrong with a nice discussion?

[______________Hodaka]

I think it comes down to intent.. no matter what the post said, the original post was meant as a way to get people to consider a nerf... all you have to do is read it to see that.. someone had a hidden agenda..

There was no "let's discuss specials in general".. it was specifically aimed at AS (no pun intended).. Thus, the poster had a reason for posting this particular subject.. most likely from losing a PVP battle or two..

[_______________Goode]

Originally posted by Halfnelson

I no nothing of the IRC fandango so I'm merely basing my comments on the content of this thread. It seems to have run away from the topic and turned into a comparison of ego's and who took a debate class in highschool and who didn't.

Regardless of who payed attention during the Lincoln v. Douglas lecture, the question of AS/SA dynamic is still popular among the playerbase. All nerfing aside...what's wrong with a nice discussion?

/me was a highschool master debator... 12 years ago.

Not meaning to stroke my ego and flaunt my debating abilities (or lack thereof), but you have to ask yourself why this discussion is justified. And in doing so, you have to realize the implications it will have on game dynamics. And to extend this a bit further, any time there is a change of this magnitude, it often leads (as always) to unforseen consequences. This for me is enough reason for not changing it.

And all nerfing aside (which until now has never been the case)...the problem with this discussion is that it's been held numerous times in a variety of formats and most that flame at this point are simply tired of debating it.

[odian102]

Hi,

Sorry for not posting, but this post didnt turnout like I wanted it too.

Last night, I thought it would be best to let the thread die.

but after login in this afternoon and reading the posts. I thought of giving it one more try.

Intention:
(good) this post was not generated as a nerf cry. If you assume otherwise its a waste of your time to post here and a waste of my time. To be honest, I generated this post based on discussions I have had with agents. Some think concealment should be linked to aimshot. Some assume that perception has nothing to do with concelment. While others assume that its Funcoms enabiliy to make up there mind and mid-stream in the process of developing the concept, they change there minds. This is way we have some many different rules that conflict in PvM vs PvP.

So a few days ago at work (bored), I started looking at how funcom designed the game from beta-till-now with the infuses on concealment and its role on Aimshot. Gave me something to do. Several things kept coming up:
- Agents seemed to be the focus of Aimshot.
- Funcom seemed to tie Aimshot to concealment so it appears they are focusing on Agents using it.
-99% of the weapons agents have are Aimshot oriented.
-Funcom wanted the damage to be huge, but didnt want it to be a "point click" process or "a given" special. Im assuming that is way Aimshot has such a high damage output. Aimshot is a special that requires a perception check. PvM
-agents start getting aimshot buffs and concealment buffs. No other profession is getting them.


Then funcom seems to change focus in mid-stream. Funcom seems to start focusing on PvP. the pattern becomes fuzzy. We start having 2 roles. one for PvM and one for PvP. Funcom starts adjusting everything: Crit, damage, weapon requirement, and removing items like: pistols, scopes.

Now, I have know idea where funcom is going. The playing field has some many different rules.

So, at this point, I was inconclusive on determining the rules of Aimshot.

So, I desided to open up the discussion on the boards. To get others view points.

WHAT I DID INCORRECTLY: Is tie my opinion into my post. The post should have stated an open discussion about concealment and Aimshot. Period.
I then should have posted a followup thread on my idea about it. But I didnt. I posted them together. this really missed this whole thread up.

"You live and learn" - some times the hard way

=======================================

So, I would still like to know what your ideas on the subjuct of concealment and specials.

Note: I know it doesnt really matter. The dev. will determine it for us. but its fun to talk about it.

[p00finger]

Originally posted by Goode


/me was a highschool master debator... 12 years ago.

Not meaning to stroke my ego and flaunt my debating abilities...

I was by no means directing my last post to you, Goode. Rather at others who feel a need to regurgitate textbook jargon continually and offer zero original thought.

As to:

why this discussion is justified. And in doing so, you have to realize the implications it will have on game dynamics. And to extend this a bit further, any time there is a change of this magnitude, it often leads (as always) to unforseen consequences. This for me is enough reason for not changing it.

Hmm...why not talk about it? I'll tell you one thing. I'm not sure it's justified to censor yourself out of fear of "unforseen consequences". IMHO

[_______________Goode]

Heh...dont break it if it ain't broke.

j/k...

I understand the reasoning behind it being tied to conceal... I just don't agree with it.

[odian102]

Now, back to explaining more about my idea.

One of the main focuses on my idea was based on the discussions i have had with players that use aimshot in pvm. The complaint was having to always sneak or run into a room real fast to have a chance on using a special. This was compouned when you were fighting a mob that had high perception which didnt allow u to execute the special. this basically ment that you had to sneak or run super fast into a room to be effective in your group. The alternative was to just seat back and fire normal shots.

So, with that in mind, I came up with an idea that allowed u to use as the aimshot like a fling shot when not concealed. (halfnelson comment). But when you felt like laying some mob out. you could conceal and do a hidden aimshot that did super damage.

Now, I expained the idea to pvp. to see how it would work. It seemed to be perfect. It increased the agents ability to be number one in aimshot. It increased the ability of the adventure by allowing him to effectively use his perception buffs. It didnt stop any profession from using aimshot.

but.............

So, I looked at me "a trader" and determined I could live with it. It had enough positives in the idea, then negitives and added to the game complexity.

what I didnt take into effect is just because I can live with it, doesnt mean that others can live with it. Or consider it a big fat nerf.

So, this is just one idea. Im sure we can come up with better ideas. or not. lol lol lol lol

my 2 cents.

[______________Hodaka]

For some reason I find it hard to believe that someone would take it upon themselves to try and get game mechanics changed for a profession they're not in because they "talked to some agents" (unless of course they want a profession nerfed). I can see entering a conversation in progress in support or against a subject, but not starting a thread suggesting we discuss nerfs/changes to AS. If you know agents that want this, maybe they should be the ones posting such threads..

Everyone is free to spend IP how they please.. if that means others can AS, then they spent their IP the way they wanted and not by some set of rules for their class.. I know many agents that went pure shotgun skill.. not very good for roleplaying, but it was their choice..

IMHO, if they want to make the agent the king of AS, they can increase the damage while concealed and not touch it otherwise. Then they can give us an agent only rifle that's better than the X-3, so that we won't see every other profession running around wearing them..(ql200 longshot is joke) Make us true snipers.. hidden kills followed by sneaking away or running for our lives if discovered...

If this was what you were suggesting, then most of us have completely misunderstood your post. Instead, your suggestion seemed to say "leave concealed AS damage alone, but decrease unconcealed". That's a very, very different idea..

If you're saying the opposite, like I proposed, then I apologize for the misunderstanding..

[odian102]

Hodaka

Sorry Hodaka, I suggested the other. the one you hate. lol

but, I would like to hear more on your alternate idea. Sounds like a posibility. Would like you to expaned on the idea. PvM and PvP.
Keep in focus Balance.

A hidden sneak attack that does great damage and then a retreat. would there be a perception check on the retreat? What would be the break down on it. Example: if the target has a 750 perception and you have less then an 1000. The target sees you and you are uncovered. What would be the penalty if your uncovered?

I like the idea of using concealment for something besides. going invisable.

explain more

[______________Hodaka]

First, let me say that I don't trust funcom to not screw anything up, so I'd rather things be left alone.. however... if it was a perfect world with no chance for them screwing it up, this is what I'd like to see:

Concealment should not be tied to aimed shot as a requirement, only as a bonus.. that goes for PVP and PVM.

AS should continue to behave as it does when I'm not concealed. I can still Aim my gun.. sometimes I'll get lucky and get a good crit, othertimes it won't be so good.. That's exactly as it is now. If I'm concealed, I should have large and dependable damage. This would probably mean an AS would have a higher damage cap when concealed vs the current ones. None of this crossing my fingers and praying that a series of crits happens or dying..

I'd like to conceal and take a sniper shot. Conceal would only break if some type of perception roll beat my conceal roll (I'm not sure how it should be weighted).

If I continue to shoot (either at that target if for some reason I didn't kill them, or at a new target), the weighting of the perception roll gets increased, also increasing my chances of detection. If I assassinate someone and sneak off. I can reconceal elsewhere (maybe after a specific time) and all weighted counts would be zero again and I could work on my next assassination. This would be a very slow and deliberate process. My job is to assassinate key elements, not take on the whole dang army..

The better I can conceal, the less chance of discovery. The better my AS skill, the less likely I'll mess up my shot..

For those who want to run in and attack like a soldier, then they simply don't use conceal. They don't have to worry about being caught because they're in plain view. Things work as before. Those who are patient and want to play a sniper would have to live with timers and perception vs conceal checks.

This is much like real snipers. They can take 1, 2, maybe 3 shots to kill people and then they give away their location. If they're smart, they planned a retreat. If not, they fight back in plain view and pray for help or that they can win the fight. If they don't, they die..


I know I don't have all the answers and I'm sure there are differing opinions.. but I look at other sniper games and real snipers and see a vast difference to the game we're playing now..

If they're going to let us choose paths, then some people could choose to be infiltrators instead.. however, FC would actually have to add some elements to the game to support that. Sneak in and place charges on the towers, steal secrets, etc. More like a James Bond character.. gadgets with small weaponry.. or a ninja like character..combination agent/MA..

Enough of my ramblings.. my ideas I'm sure have holes and like I said, I don't trust FC to get it right.. but this is how I dream of playing the game.. I don't pretend to represent anyone or to have discussed my ideas with anyone else.. they're just how I thought an agent would be played when I bought the game..