Discussion: Aimshot & Sneak Attack modifications. Post your thoughts

[odian102]

Rules: Plz post good arguements, discussion, and/or points. No comments like "Nerf, No Nerf, and/or STFU" comments.

Right now, Aimshot and Sneak attack are inbalanced. These specials were intended to be tied into concelment. In Pvp, there is no concelment check which makes the special appear inbalanced. Example: I will use myself. lvl 187 trader. I can max out evades, max out aimshot, max out nano resistance. I can equip a +13-15% scope and go full defensive. I will then use an ithaca which has Aimshot. Under this setup, most of my opponents normal shots will miss me, most of my opponents offensive nanos will be countered. Aimshot recycles super fast and there is no way for my opponent to counter the special.

The ithaca is not the problem. Its aimshot was never intended from the start to be a special that can be executed at anytime -like fling, burst, full auto). that is why aimshot has a high multiplier when successfully executed.

The following example is based on Aimshot but can also apply to Sneak attack.

==========================================
Wuzuppp's opinion on specials that require concelment.

1) One rule to rule them all.(pvm/pvp). Both Aimshot and sneakattack are specials that were intend to be used in conjunction with concelment.

2) Full Auto was never intended to be used with concelment. And as such is based on the players attack rating to increase the multiplier - which gives certain professions an advantage with FA. Aimshot and SneakAttack multipliers are mostly effected by how many points you have in that skill and not in your attack rating. this allows very little difference in some professions having an advantage in increasing the mult. Full auto also requires a long reload. Note: For the reasons listed above Full Auto will not be part of this discussion.-FYI, its not a special tied into concelment.

3) The following is an example of how to adjust both this concelment based specials.

example: one rule for both pvm and pvp.

There should be one rule in PvM and PvP in regard to specials that are tied into concelment. I would propose that aimshot be adjusted in the following manner.
In PvM, If you are not hidden you should be able to complete an aimshot with a reduced mult. chance. If you are hidden, then the current mult. calculations apply. This allows every class to use Aimshot in pvm but if you want to increase your multiplier you have to invest in concelement. This also gives some professions an enharent advantage in specials that require concelment- such as the agent. Which is should. Right now the agent has very little advantage over other classes in Aimshot.
In PvP, The same system applies, If you are not hidden you should be able to complete an aimshot with a reduced mult. chance. If you are hidden, then the currect multiplier calculations apply. So, If you want to increase your multiplier you have to apply points into concelment. This also gives specific classes advantages in increasing the multiplier on Aimshot-ie, the agent. Which is should be. This adjustment also includes a balancing system: Perception. Now perception actually mean something in PvP. By increasing perception, you make it harder for the opponent to increase his multiplier by getting an aimshot off while hidden. But you cant stop the opponent from using aimshot. The agent has an increased chance of a hidden aimshot but the adventure has an increased chance of not beening attacked with a hidden aimshot. This makes the adventures perception buffs viable now. My proposed system has checks and balances in it. If you want to protect yourself from aimshot you can increase your perception vs. If you want to increase your multiplier with aimshot, you have to increase your concelment.

This system is a "win-win" setup. It gives you the ability to increase your multiplier and allows you to defend against high multipliers.

-my 2 cents.

Note: Im not suggesting a nerf or no nerf. Im just opening up a discussion about specails that are tied to concelement.

Plz, post your thoughts, I would really like to know what you think.

[Grupert]

It's fine as it is. Now go away.

[odian102]

Is this the best discussion I can get, "It's fine as it is. Now go away."

WoW, sure glad i put some thought into this thread. lol


Ok Grupert, I will follow up with: how is it fine? Dont go away!

[Morthoseth]

I agree with you 100%. =)

[odian102]

Its a fair system that adds to the game. the key is checks and balances.

[_______________Fryli]

AS got nothing to do with conseal, in PvM you can hit npc's that dont see you even when ur not consealed.
Conseal was prolly linked to AS because there was a time where AS was pretty uber... and conseal was kinda to limitate a lot of as in PvM. AS was nerfed in 12,6 if i not much wrong.

I understand why you wanna link SA to conseal, it's hard to do a sneak attack on someone who looks at you... but lifting a rifle or pistol aiming trough a scope is not that hard, the only limitation as i see it is that u have to actually stand still when aiming. It should be hard to get of an AS when someone hits you in close combat, but if you got some distance to your target it should be pretty easy.

Perception... yea, should chack agains SA... because someone is sneeking up on you consealed... but that guy who you spoted aiming at you with a rifle still got you targeted even tho he is not consealed.

[Grupert]

Want AS tied to conceal? Fine, then it should do 100% damage like it used to. Don't like that? Then anything else would be a nerf.
Your a trader it seems. What happened? Some agent handed you your ass on a plater?

[odian102]

Fryli,

My idea only links the high multipler to concealment. not the ability to execute an Aimshot. in my proposed idea, anyone can AS at anytime. the idea behind getting a high multipler is that your oppenent is unaware of you and you are taking your time to shoot. Its also balances the issues with perception.

Grupert,

Once again. It seems you cant discuss an issue without destroying your idea with comments like: "Some agent handed you your ass on a plater?"

Its not about me. or even the trader profession. Like I said, a trader with an ithaca at full defense is about as good as u get. Im looking at improving the game not destroying it.

[Grupert]

Originally posted by Odian102
Fryli,

My idea only links the high multipler to concealment. not the ability to execute an Aimshot. in my proposed idea, anyone can AS at anytime. the idea behind getting a high multipler is that your oppenent is unaware of you and you are taking your time to shoot. Its also balances the issues with perception.

Grupert,

Once again. It seems you cant discuss an issue without destroying your idea with comments like: "Some agent handed you your ass on a plater?"

Its not about me. or even the trader profession. Like I said, a trader with an ithaca at full defense is about as good as u get. Im looking at improving the game not destroying it.

It's a nerf no matter how you look at it. And I would wager that 99% of all agents would be against it. Propose a USEFUL idea, like increase that damage % to something greater than 40%. Until you do, go away, and take your nerfs with you.

[decklen]

Haven't you seen those nanos that absorb specials? How awesome is our aimed shot if the whole thing is absorbed.. Some of those nanos absorb up to 5 specials. There goes your burst, full auto, aimed shot, fling... All useless.

The point is, if you can't see me, I can aimed shot.. As I should be able to do. Perception in PVP should be fixed rather than changing the way Aimed shot works.. It should work just like it does in PVM. Unlike Traders, for Agents that aimed shot is really all we have going for us.. Without that we're toast. Maybe funcom shouldn't have put Aimed shot on all of those other weapons... To avoid the problem you mentioned, they should just take aimed shot off all weapons, and make all rifles with Aimed Shot agent only.. Hows that?

[Canto]

Originally posted by Odian102
Is this the best discussion I can get, "It's fine as it is. Now go away."
WoW, sure glad i put some thought into this thread. lol
Ok Grupert, I will follow up with: how is it fine? Dont go away!

This has been hashed out in these forums in very easy to find threads. Use the search to find those threads.

Yes, you are asking that AS and Sneak Attack be nerfed. Face up to that, and btw, your cross post to the Agent forum makes you no less of a nerf-crier. Live with it. I myself believe in some nerfs.

NO, your original nerf post does not warrant an intelligent reply. I'm giving you one so that you can edit your original post accordingly ( I doubt you will do much editing though).

Why don't you deserve an intelligent reply? There are several reasons:

1) WHY are AS and SA unbalanced in PvP? The burden to show that they are is ON YOU, not the status quo, btw. Because you say so? You offer not one scrap of legitimate reasoning that PvP is unbalanced because of these specials.

2) Stating that something "can" happen such and such a way is not the same as offering good quantitative reasons for a MASSIVE NERF TO ALL RANGED WEAPON USERS. I don't care what profession you play. My gut inclination is that as a Trader the only thing you have to fear on the battleground "IS" AS.

Trying to assert that as a Trader, an Ithaca is your primary battlefield weapon is laughable. "Well I have in this hand one weapon that can get a nice but kind of random AS every 15-20 seconds and in the other hand I have the most brutal and unbalanced nano in the game which basically puts any player it hits OUT OF COMMISSION ENTIRELY for 3-5 minutes. Hey, let's nerf the AS on the Ithaca!" ROFL.

3) Who said that AS was never "intended" to be executed at any given time? WHO? Who said that AS requires a scope? All the term "aimed shot" implies is skill in aiming, nothing more. Who said that a sneak attack must be from concealment and not a "dirty" attack like a knife in the shoe? NOBODY. And don't trot out something some temp wrote into a manual somewhere as the hallowed "Word of FunCom" like it is from the framers of the Constitution.

4) My max AS is 10,000; my soldier friend's max FA is 10,000. What the hell is the difference that means my aimed shot should be nerfed and FA left as it is?

5) One rule to rule them all? Conceal is not necessary in PvM to get an AS and if anything should be changed, it should be PvM, not PvP. And though it sounds somewhat logical, what the hell does "One rule to rule them all" supposed to mean? Admittedly it sounds like "One ring to rule them all," and thus has some air of legitimacy , but PvM and PvP have diverged irrevocably in terms of rules applying equally to both such that claiming legitimacy for a nerf by saying that PvP and PvM should be consistent is just plain contrary to the way the game is developing.

6) Go ahead and use your Ithaca and 15% scope at full defense in PvP now, I have never tried an Ithaca but suspect that at full defense and a 15% scope, no attainable amount of init will get you to 1:1, and relying on 14-16% crit on a non 1:1 weapon to get the job done (assuming MOP AND TTS) is a very risky proposition indeed.

7) Nerfers like you love to tie AS in with Sneak Attack because of the word "sneak" implying concealment when the two have nothing to do with one another, and let's be real, this is why you even mention it, you could care a hoot about Sneak Attack and neither could I so let's toss it out. Justify a nerf to AS only please. No definitions of "sneak" cross-applied to AS, thanks.

7) Preemption of the "realism" argument. Any pleas to nerf AS based on realism in AO are ludicrous on their face and really deserve no response, intelligent or otherwise. REAL sniper rifles would kill a 600 pound barbarian with a club from half a mile away TODAY, not in 30,000 years. REAL aimed shots would have the potential to kill anything in ONE SHOT in AO PvP, so don't go down the "realism" road either.

What does that leave you with? Thought so.

[decklen]

Word. If you hit somebody with a 50 cal sniper you'll be scraping their brains off the rocks.. No matter how much armor they are wearing. You could shoot through the engine block of a truck with that sunuva*****...

[odian102]

Wow. I feel like im being attacked for an idea. lol

I opened this thread with the key word: discussion.

I never used nerf or not nerf in my comments about my proposed ideas.

You assume that my alternate objective is to nerf Aim shoot. Which it isnt.

Its interesting and amazing that the trend in the forums is "attack, attack, defend" type of discussion.

Sanskrit, you have made some good points, but I had to way through the personal attacks and anger to get to them. I do think some of your ideas are correct. but I still believe AS and sneak attack is still tied to concealement. I wish funcom would make a statement on if it is or not. That would clear up alot if confusion about the issue. Right know you can make an arguement for Aimshot/concealement if you look at PVM and you can make an arguement against aimshot/concealment in PvP if you just look at it.
see my point.

Both sides of the coin are assuming thier right on the issue.
In pvm, Funcom is boldly saying "aimshot is tied to concelment/mobs presents of you."
In pvp, funcom is saying the opposite.

But what sways me in believing that aimshot is tied to concelment is the nanos funcom put into the game before mass pvp. The agents concealment nanos which allows the to use aimshot in pvm, the ability not to use aimshot if the mob detects your presense, the adventures perception buffs. If you look at the nanos it implies a "check and balance system" . See my point.

I cant honestly tell you what Funcom has determined the role of Aimshot is. Funcom has changed the role of the game several times and continuely changes the roles based on what they think is necessary. Which is fine.

The only reason I posted this thread was to get other view points on this issue and to get other insight that I might not have concederd.

-my 2 cents.

[Cohhen]

"3) Who said that AS was never "intended" to be executed at any given time? WHO? Who said that AS requires a scope? All the term "aimed shot" implies is skill in aiming, nothing more. Who said that a sneak attack must be from concealment and not a "dirty" attack like a knife in the shoe? NOBODY. And don't trot out something some temp wrote into a manual somewhere as the hallowed "Word of FunCom" like it is from the framers of the Constitution. "

I don't know if any fc employee ever actually said it....that's not necessary though. STUPID AS THAT MAY BE FC obviously intended AS to be a surprise attack , at least for PvM (either need to be quick or have high conceal and sneak) and my personal guess is that they can't get the code right for pvp; I agree though that it's "stupid" to link AS with conceal

sorry can't help myself but I see sneak attack as the classical knife in the back; assasins style (kinda would explain it's high damage potential beeing higher than a normal hit)

"4) My max AS is 10,000; my soldier friend's max FA is 10,000. What the hell is the difference that means my aimed shot should be nerfed and FA left as it is? "

recharge time maybe? and prolly the fact that FA can be REALLY crappy against high evades/full def

"7) Preemption of the "realism" argument. Any pleas to nerf AS based on realism in AO are ludicrous on their face and really deserve no response, intelligent or otherwise. REAL sniper rifles would kill a 600 pound barbarian with a club from half a mile away TODAY, not in 30,000 years. REAL aimed shots would have the potential to kill anything in ONE SHOT in AO PvP, so don't go down the "realism" road either."

so what? a real katana could behead you in one hit too

[agentgimpy]

You sounding pretty good until this;

In PvP, The same system applies, If you are not hidden you should be able to complete an aimshot with a reduced mult. chance. If you are hidden, then the currect multiplier calculations apply. So, If you want to increase your multiplier you have to apply points into concelment

With the 40% cap even a reduced AS should still hit the cap, so what would be the difference?

FYI - AS and the amount of damage it does is directly tied to the number of points you have in AS(increases the chance for a crit AS), or so it used to be. With the way some people get off 10k aimed shots(Non-Agent) without investing more than the base requirement in AS is beyond me.

If concealment were ever tied to AS in PvP then the cap on it and it alone should be raised beyond 40%, and I'm not talking 42%...I mean 60-70% because after that your concealment is broken and you are out of specials*. I would settle for a lower non-concealed AS in pvp if it meant I had the chance to drop 60-70% of a Docs health and possibly get in a good second shot before he did a CH.


Finaly, if this were ever to happen, then all guns with AS as a special* on them should have a serious concealment requirement on them as well.

* Problem with specials is many guns have AS along with other specials or req's that are dark blue to Agents(who were supposed to be AS masters) and making AS any stonger would make those guns more usefull and powerfull to the wrong classes, and making AS any weaker would gimp Agents. They can't remove or change the gun requirements that are already in the game... it would not be fair to anybody.

So, as I would love to see an Agent only gun that has great crits and reg damage, I don't believe items should be limited this way, for if you wanted to raise dark blue skills to equip an item, then you should have that option. I believe that a pure AS gun should be created that is close to the X-3, but higher in base damage, and has in addition to a higher AS requirement, a substantial concealment requirement, so anyone could equipe it if they wanted to go that route.

Also, with my AS maxed I should be landing the big aimed shots far more often then I am. 70% of the time I hit the min damage.

Besides all this....I am happy enough with it as is.

...thats my 2 cents..




P.S. You ARE fishing for a nerf!

[odian102]

AgentGimpy

the following is a good point:
"With the 40% cap even a reduced AS should still hit the cap, so what would be the difference? "

Well, this post started out as a discusion. what your opinion. I would like to here it. From what I can tell its raise the 40% cap on hidden AS. I think that is a good idea. It should be a heavy hit. What is your view on the damage cap on a non-hidden AS. If we are going to raise the bar on a hidden AS. then we should lower the bar on a non-hidden AS.

[______________Hodaka]

Wasn't it enought that everyone told you to go away on the AO IRC chat.. now you have to bring the lameness here?

[Canto]

Originally posted by Odian102

I never used nerf or not nerf in my comments about my proposed ideas.

A nerf is a nerf is a nerf. You are suggesting one.

BTW, don't confuse vehemence with anger, and don't use the excuse of "personal attacks" to avoid addressing my points. I have no idea who or what you are as a person, nor do I care. All I know is that you are requesting, with no real reasons, a huge nerf of every ranged character in a game that I play alot.

Originally posted by Odian102

I do think some of your ideas are correct...

and...

I paid you the courtesy of addressing several of the points you "attempted" to make in your original post and in return you have accused me of anger and personal attacks, and though you have paid minor lip service to the points I made, have not addressed ANY of them other than to say that you "still believe that AS is linked to concealment and that you wish FC would say something."

Originally posted by Odian102

I wish funcom would make a statement on if it is or not. That would clear up alot if confusion about the issue. Right know you can make an arguement for Aimshot/concealement if you look at PVM and you can make an arguement against aimshot/concealment in PvP if you just look at it.
see my point.

No, you are not making a coherent point. It is irrelevant what FC says (especially what PR flacks or copywriters say) or doesn't say, the game works as the game works and you are asking for a DESIGN CHANGE (a nerf) to the status quo. Justify it; you have yet to do so and the burden is on you to show that the status quo is unbalanced. "I don't like it" is not good enough. You opened this nerf thread under the guise of a discussion and then offer no meaningful material for discussion, just the same old tripe that has been hashed over time and time again in other threads.

Originally posted by Odian102

Both sides of the coin are assuming thier right on the issue.
In pvm, Funcom is boldly saying "aimshot is tied to concelment/mobs presents of you."
In pvp, funcom is saying the opposite.

For the final time, no one cares what FC "says" it is what the designers "do" that is the game. I can type out reams of inconsistencies between what FC "says" and how the game actually works but will spare us all. Come up with something else; we are done on the "What FC says..." "line of reasoning."

Originally posted by Odian102
But what sways me in believing that aimshot is tied to concelment is the nanos funcom put into the game before mass pvp. The agents concealment nanos which allows the to use aimshot in pvm, the ability not to use aimshot if the mob detects your presense, the adventures perception buffs. If you look at the nanos it implies a "check and balance system" . See my point.

Here again, instead of attempting to address my replies to your original arguments, you rehash the "one rule for PvM and PvP" argument. PvM and PvP rules are rapidly diverging. Get used to it and don't use PvM as a foundation for a huge PvP nerf.

[Canto]

Originally posted by Cohhen
" REAL sniper rifles would kill a 600 pound barbarian with a club from half a mile away TODAY, not in 30,000 years. REAL aimed shots would have the potential to kill anything in ONE SHOT in AO PvP, so don't go down the "realism" road either."

so what? a real katana could behead you in one hit too

Uhh, guy, don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

[odian102]

Hodaka

thks i needed that.

not everyone agrees with you. In my eyes, thats what Irc and the forums is all about "discussion". You might agree or disagree as long is we are talking about the subject and not attacking the person.

Since, you bring it up. I dont understand why the moderator in the IRC chat would allow comments that personally attack people. like comments: STFU. Even though they didnt spell it out. the message is the same. the intent is the same. Or comments like "go away". All personal attacks.

FYI: The moderator allowed this to happen to the point where I tried to defend myself by saying, "This as a joke, This is the main problem with the ao forums as while" No one can have a discussion without people screaming "nerf, no nerf or STFU".

the comment got me banned from the AO IRC channel.

But the personal attacks that lead up to my comment was ignored-ie STFU or Go Away.

I guess its ok to tell someone to "STFU" as long as you dont have to spell it out.