Clan Terrorists - attack on a Neutral Outpost

[_________Steelwraith]

Today "Les Descendants De KA" attacked a neutral outpost in Stret West Bank, belonging to the Neut-Pol organization. There were several Omni-Tek locations nearby, but they chose instead to attack a Neutral outpost.

When questioned, they said they were "Testing the system", which I can only assume means they were examining their own strategic forces for battle readiness against Tower defenses.

So is this what neutrals have become? Firing range fodder for the Clans? This vaunted freedom and independence the Clans claim to fight for means naught when individuals in the Clans go on murderous and vandalistic rampages against Neutral organizations.

You may claim that this organization is not a representative of the "majority" of the Clans. Well, then, why do you allow them to identify with the Clans? Or is this just a way for you to turn a blind eye on what your fellow Clan-mates are doing? It's easier if you allow them to continue their war-crimes than to confront these renegade Clans. Or perhaps you secretly condone their actions - as it leads to more land for the Clans.

If the Clans wish to harbor criminals and murderers, villains and brigands, then they are no better than Daft Criminals. If, however, they choose to take the higher road, and make reparations for the damages these malcontents have made, then perhaps they are the freedom fighters they espouse to be.

Only time will tell. As for the Neutrals - we're used to being the targets of Clan and Omni terrorism. But do not be surprised if the Clans find themselves the victims of Neutral uprisings and assaults. You make your bed, you must lie in it. We will not stand idly by while the Clans pick and prod what few lands we control, and claim innocence - that it was a few "rogue" clans. Prove yourselves something other than the greedy robber barons you currently are, and do what's right.

Your fight is not with us - yet if you force our hand, it will be.

[______________Nelida]

ummm...how do you expect us to "not let them identify with us"?
Just like the Sentinels...I'd LOVE to get rid of them...just don't really see how I do that any more than YOU get rid of Neutral criminals...or are you saying there ARE no neutral criminals? hmmm?

I don't condone their actions any more than I condone ANY group's agressive tendencies. You seem to see the "Clan" tag and therefor blame ANY clanner for a the actions of a few.

Should all of US do the same? I've seen neutral orgs attack clan and omni without provocation...are YOU willing to admit that their actions are YOUR fault? I didn't think so...so I'm not willing to take blame for the actions of a FEW rogue clanners and I'm certain that Omni such as Kithrak are not willing to take responsibility for a few rogue Omni. Are YOU going to reimburse Clan and Omni for the actions of rogue Neutrals? Careful...I submit you live in a house made of no less glass than the rest of us.

Jeesh...is there something about this that you can't see?

When I can get involved I do...sometime back members of a certain Clan guild attacked a few neutrals in a certian 0% bar...I jumped to their defense. My fellow clanners gunned me down even though I was unarmed and in civilian clothes. I came back with my Clan guildmates and we took them off at the knees for attacking our Neutral friends...without provocation.

Of course all YOU seem to see is the tag "Clan"...not individual names or organizations...just the tag "Clan".

*sigh* With attitudes like that we are unlikely to ever get past our problems.

[_________Steelwraith]

When I refer to the "Clans", I refer to what each organization that goes by Clan holds in common with all the others. Namely, their fight for independence and freedom against Omni-Tek. At least, that's how they put it, right?

Where does the fight for independence and personal freedom include killing those who've chosen to be independent?

That is what I refer to when I talk about the "Clans". Those organizations that attack neutrals and the ICC need to realize that they, in fact, are going against what it is to be Clan...at least how this Neutral understands your beliefs.

As for how...if the Clan's cannot organize some form of cohesiveness...then what's their purpose? Are they not fighting for the same goal? Or is each group really fighting for personal control once they defeat Omni-Tek? Do the Clans really not communicate whatsoever?

I realize there are Clans that are peaceable, and do not attack Neutral organizations, personel, nor property. They are also eager to defend our facilities against Omni-Tek incursion. Now the question is - do they turn a blind eye when another Clan makes attacks on Neutrals? Do they mount political pressure against the aggressors, or do they bask in the extra advantages the notum mining operations give them?

I'm not blaming every Clanner for what happened - to do so would be a gross generalization and inappropriate. What I am doing is asking them what they will do regarding this event. Like I said, will they turn a blind eye, and go about their daily lives, thus condoning the organizations behaviour, or will they speak out against this terroristic act?

( )

[Kyrstina]

I think, in some cases, we are asking a bit too much here, as far as everyone not getting us involved. This is a war, and last I saw, most neutrals don't fall under the category of "unarmed civilians" either. I think that having a positive relationship with both Clan and OT can be benifitial in the long run, but expecting them to turn a blind eye to us is not.

Let's face it. Right now, the power struggle for Rubi-Ka has shifted into high gear, and right now, profits are going to be motivating most people. You can't win a war if you can't fund it, right? And how many times in history has civilian or even neutral land been taken over for the "good" of the conflict? This isn't anything new, people. This is the way war works.

Now, am I saying that it should just be all-out violence? No. But I'm seeing countless posts here about how "these people did this" and "they shouldn't attack us, we're neuts", and it's just plain naive. Yes, it's nice to be out of the main battle, and not have to deal with that, but to expect us to not be indirectly involved isn't realistic.

Don't get me wrong either. I do work for peace on this planet, a peace where both Clan and OT can live here and be civil and learn to share. But that is the future. This is now. Now is war. So stop complaining about it, accept it, and move on. If you're gonna go out and start extracting revenge because one side attacked you, you might as well have signed an application form for the other when you did so.

[______________Nelida]

I don't care who you are...if you can't figure out who your enemy is then you have a real problem. The Clan group you mentioned fall into that category as do any Neutrals who decide to exact revenge against any convenient Clan and not the SPECIFIC group that was the agressor.

You keep going back to Clan this, Neutral that, Omni then, Clan now...blah blah blah.

ALL you had to do was mention the name of the ORG that attacked the Neutral facility. It was YOU that made it into a 'faction' issue...where there really was NO need to.

Many of keep track of those individuals and orgs that fall outside what we consider civilized behavoir norms and refuse to do business with them, defend them or help them in any way.

[Silinary]

Don't be fooled by your own propaganda.

Many neutrals would like nothing more then to stay our of the conflict and enjoy peacefull lives. For the most part Omni-tek has done this that I've seen and left neutral land alone, except once or twice. Repeatedly certain Clan orginizations attack neutral lands. He mentioned the clan org that did it above. What he didn't mention is the other aggressive clans that have attaked such as the Dominatrix Society of Tir, the Red tigers, Opposing Force, and I can't seem to remember the others. Some were issolated incidents and have been forgivin. Others were sustaind aggression through some self-rightiousness that was missplaced.

I would have to say that if neutral lands were left alone, clan and omni would have no risk from the neutral sector... but neutral lands arn't left alone. The reason this is a problem is because there are clan guild like opposing force with a recent announcement that they will back up all clan actions, including those of the highly aggressive route. Neutral respond when provoked. Not once have I seen neutrals attack a clan or omni target with out some provocation before hand. Keep this in mind when you hear of a neutral attack. What did someone do to provoke them. There is usually a good answer.

The one exception I must make is with merc guilds. If they are paid they will carry out their job... but keep in mind, if the opposing side pays more, those mercs will likly trade side. It's not personal, its buisness.

Silinar~

[Vixentrox]

Elite Operations seems to make regular unprovoked attacks. I belive Desert Winds also made an attack to..clean up some mining pollution..or something to that effect.

[Silinary]

Please list these "unprovoked attacks" elite ops has made, for I know of none that were unprovoked.

[___________Lady Kali]

Yes I second that request.

There is only one misinterpreted event that I know of which might be related to this, Vix. Please make sure you have evidence before you accuse our guild. We've been getting a lot of unwarrented accusations recently, and I for one would like to set the record straight on a lot of things. In addition, if you (or anyone else) have any direct questions for our guild, please let me know.

Morale Officer
Elite Operations

[Vixentrox]

From a Clan leader's point of view....coming on-world and seeing Elite Operations make various attacks on Clan mines...makes it SEEM that they are uprovoked. How can we tell? This is an issue I have been trying to explain on another thread. Elite Operations is now percieved by pretty much all the Clan leaders as an aggressive and criminal organization. There is no way to tell who fired the first shots anymore. It's a game of he said she said. Elite Operations is largerly responsible...rightly or wrongly, for many of the Clan leaders wanting to stamp out ALL Neutral bases. It's Elite Operations reputation that has caused very few Clan leaders to speak out for Neutral rights any more. You have an image problem and it has sabotaged mine and other moderete leaders efforts to get our fellow Clan leaders to leave the Neutrals alone. I am not sure what the solution is here. Can there be one? Perhaps you getting into dialouge with those you have percieved offending you?

[___________Lady Kali]

Start by listing dates, names and places. I cannot account for heresay Vix. I would be happy to answer any questions that you may have but you need to be more specific in order for me to help you.

Tell me the dates, times and locations of the accused unprovoked attacks on clan mining towers and I will gladly confirm or deny or clarify EO's involvment for the record; provided that I am allowed time to consult with my leaders I can also provide official EO statements to you.

I am perfectly willing to talk with you Vix, but it seems many would sooner prejudge our guild than ask us for our side of the story or see any evidence we have to back our claims. And so far our image problem has been largely due to rumors and heresay, with several guilds jumping to conclusions without making proper inquiries.

[Vixentrox]

Heh...you made my point. I don't keep a log of all tower attacks. I am not available on-world 24/7 neither is any other guild leader except maybe Boglwe (bless her pink shorts). We are forced to observe from the moment we (myself and other guild leaders) get on-world. That is where the conclusions are drawn from. I know you have been attacked by Clan organizations. I argued against such attacks. There have been rumors going around that Omni is PAYING your guild to make attacks on Clan mines. It's not just me you have to convince Elite Operations. My guild is not aggressive. It's THE OTHER guilds you need to convince. Perhaps getting on board with the mining coalition is a start.

[Kyrstina]

I agree on this. I haven't heard much of EOs supposed "actions" but I've heard the reputation of a "bad influence for neuts" and "criminals" voiced more than once.

I also agree with Vix that, at this point, it doesn't really matter who fired first or who's to blame. The point is that the thought and images in people's minds are there, and that is what needs to be corrected.

I believe it has been mentioned that EO is a merc guild, but I would suggest meeting with other guilds, both Clan and Neutral, and making your intentions known. Also, it might help to be a bit charitable and help some guilds out in defending their land.

I don't want to say that I agreee or disagree with the labeling you guys have received, but the important thing is to fix it. As we all know, most people on-world are pretty understanding at times, and a little formality and a little humility can go a long way...

<self-promoting shpeal>
... and if you would like a third party neutral to the situation to help with the talks, just let me know, and I'd be more than willing to help how I can.
</self-promoting shpeal>

[Silinary]

EO has not attacked other clan towers though. That seems to be the misrepresentation, but since I've been in EO, which is before the notum wars, EO has not attacked any others, only defended.

EO took land that was open and un-occupied. We did not take it by force, but we do defend it with force.

EO has lost a tower to clan aggression, but that tower stays clan and has not be retaliated on, with exception to the day it was taken. I can not promise this will remain so.

EO willingly helps and protects other neutral towers. Do we help defend omni or clan? only if they are friends, or pay.

I must say all the recent rumors about how EO is a bad influence seems to revolve around two issues. The mission to kill steel, which you may, or may not agree, was provoked. He had killed neutral citizens uncaringly and with disreguard. He was asking for a neutral org to kill him. Consider that for a moment. Neutrals retaliate. We are not pacifists. We mind our buisness, unless intruded upon. Many say they don't agree with the sentinals and dont' identify them, but they are also against the killing of steel. Heh... many call us fence sitters, but what would you call that? Hypocricy? I'm sorry if its a sensitive subject.

Secondly, seems to be an issue when we were called to defend a neutral tower. Apparently omni had attacked so the neutrals defending the tower called in clan and neutral to help. EO was one of the ones called in. When EO got there we didnt' knwo clan were called in to help and one of the members hit tab and attack. He apologized afterwards and even let the one clan person that he killed kill him to hopfully right the wrong. Unfortanatly the clan person was so insulted that she was killed by accedent that she went on a personal mission to destroy EO's reputation. You get the lies, the controversy begins. We get antagonized. All because this person couldnt' suck up their pride for one moment and realize it was a mistake. An apology was given, but not accepted. Finally with the release of notum wars and the ability of neutrals able to initiate attack do we realize how hard it can be to what the tab-target, something we neutrals have been very vocal about in the past... and one simple mistake turns to this.

Look at the people that give you the info, are they creditable? As you say you take on a view from the point you log on, you accept your side's word over any others. Be open-minded. A closed mind is an easily controlable mind. Don't fall prey to this.

Kali and I are here to set the record strait because we are sick of the slanderous remarks against neutrals and EO in perticular. You say you arn't on all the time so you can't produce proof that the actions happened, but yet, you blindly accept the clan side. Ask yourself wether this truly did happen. You may be suprised at what you find to be the truth.

[___________Lady Kali]

Kyrstina and Vix,

Not all of the clans who accuse us of wrongdoing choose to come forward, instead they spread rumors and perpetuate misunderstandings. How do I know who to contact for the sake of diplomacy when I have no way of knowing who accuses my guild? I will clarify what I can but that is the most I can do as I have no control over what people choose to believe. I can only hope that there are some who are more inclined to reason rather than be swayed by popular opinion and rumor.

EO is a merc guild. This is public information. There is no confusion on this issue, the fact is there for anyone who decides to look.

To quote Krys:
"I believe it has been mentioned that EO is a merc guild, but I would suggest meeting with other guilds, both Clan and Neutral, and making your intentions known. Also, it might help to be a bit charitable and help some guilds out in defending their land."

That's been done Krys, we have represented our beliefs in neutral meetings. EO has been around for a long time and most neutral guilds are aware of our mercenary classification far as I know. The information is available to any who ask. And as for tower defense, we are always willing to aid in the defense of neutral towers. We have already done so on numerous occasions, and shall continue to fight vigilantly.

[___________Lady Kali]

Also, Krys, I would be happy to work with you should we need a third party to mediate.

[Kyrstina]

I don't mean to accuse. That was not my intention. These situations are the right way, but I think of myself, right now anyway, very out-of-the-loop as far as politics and guild affairs go, and these are just the things I've heard. I wanted it to be more of a "this is what's being said" and I hadn't heard of your efforts until now, so for me this does change things.
And yes, I agree that a lot of this has to do with the raid on Tir. That got a lot of press, and for a lot of Clansmen I've talked to, even though the takeover of Tir could be seen as an attack on Neutrals, the attack on Tir was not seen as retaliation, but as an attack on the Clan capital. I'm also not saying that most people agree with the new leadership there, but I think that is how it has gotten slanted that way.
And thank you for your consideration of my offer, Lady Kali. It will always stand open for any present or future event which may occur.

[_________shaquaneeva]

EO has never to my knowage been payed to make an attack on any other mine. clan or omni. the most recent event in which we were paid was the attack on comander steel, the same commander that stands outside of the south gate of Tir killing neuts. many clanners were there and helped us fight (( i have screen shots)) as the sentinal presence is one that has been condemed by the CoA and many other indivisual clans.

have we come to the defence to other neut mines? yes often!
were there times that we have wanted to make a retalitory attack on those who have attaked us? like lions den, red tigers, Dom Society of Tir, etc... yes !

have we ? no. not yet, but if we do it will be against those who have attcked us first, we have more than enough direct enemys to deal with . we like to make an orginised effort and over take targets we are sure we can take on. no one has shown us the credits nor made an effort (to my knowlage ) to make such a move. an attack of any sort on a controller must be approved by guild advisors. we move with purpose, not mindless aggression.

chances are that with all the attacks on us, (by mostly clan guilds) we may have the impression of being overly agressive because people arent taking the time to to see who's attacking who in the tower reports. nearly every time our gasses drop, someone attacks us.

we attack the omni notum cannons in cloyon**** , we kill commander steel, someone even many clanners dispise. and instead of a positive image amoung the clans, people paint the image of us being aginst the clans or even roumors of being payed by omni? we mercs do live by a code of honor. if someones says we get payd by said group to do said job and we did do said job. we own up to it. we are mercs, we work for the highst bidder. and your going to have enemys in this bid even though you relly should have beef with the peeps who hire us.

but just like ladykali has already posted. back up your posts with specific examples. i would like to see even one.

as far as the mining coalition, i was sent by our leader sumokan to represent EO to them and gather their intentions.((i have screenshots of meeting with them in newland on the 7th of dec)) benjycrat knows me, yarko of IR was there, nelida of whispers edge along with reps from free trade alience, and law socity of RK. and i told benjycrat to send me a tell as soon as solid basis for the coalitions rules are set so i can submit a more formal proprosition to sumo. but so far, i have recived nothing. sumo is all for it, we have no beef with any guild that is non agressive towards us and it would mean nothing but gains for us.

i dont mind EO haveing a reputation, we earn it. but i don't like have a rep that we diden't earn but was put together by insufficent observations and asumptions.

[_________shaquaneeva]

((sorry to repeat what was already said, i take a little bit longer to type then i thought, and some posts had gone up in the mean time, i was looking through my screenshots to make sure i had the proff incase someone called on me to show it and didn't want to say something i couldn't back up.))

[___________Lady Kali]

No worries Krys, I didn't think you were accusing and I apologize if my answer to your points might have seemed terse. I was trying to be as concise as possible, I'm sorry if the tone seemed harsh. If you're a bit "out-of-the-loop" that's understandable, I realize you were only trying to offer a solution with the best of intentions.

As you can see we are quite willing to clarify any issues that come to light.

We do accept that being mercenaries we don't fall into people's good graces so easily, but as for slander and rumor we're not going to stand for it. If anyone has a valid complaint against our guild I would hope they will contact us to resolve any disputes. Any guild member who violates our code of conduct will be dealt with appropriately.