Attention Healers in Notum Wars...

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Miir
Do you think the designers intend for level 110-125 teams to be the perfect wrecking crews for QL 150 bases?

Precisely.
Have you ever seen a group of 200s attack a 150 base?
It's little more than a speedbump to them.

And yet orgs with a lot of level 200s are supposed to own and defend level 150 bases because they can't have more than one controller in a given QL range.

Do you think it was the designers intent to have a 150 base attacked by level 110-125s and defended by 110-125s being helaed by 200s?

I think the answer is obvious.

Base QL isn't like item QL. I don't think the answer is nearly as obvious as you do.

[_______________Hypos]

Let me emphasize this, as no one seems to be paying attention:

posted by Jynne

At level 167 I don't want to be healing level 75s at a QL 50 tower battle. That's cheesey, yes. It's boring.

We're not saying that there was no problem here. We're not saying that it did not need to be addressed.

What we're saying is that this solution was ill thought out and untested. It introduces as many problems as it solves. We need to find a better solution. Those of you who would be interested in a substantive discussion on the matter, please refer to the closed thread Proposed design: If you can't be attacked, you can't assist with buffs and healing so that you can be up to date on what other options were already proposed.

[________________Miir]

Take 2 steps back, take a deep breath and realise that you're answering your own questions.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jynne
An exploit is the use of a game mechanic in ways unintended by the designers to acquire an advantage one otherwise should not have had. Do you think the designers intend for level 110-125 teams to be the perfect wrecking crews for QL 150 bases? This system has basically made it so. I'd love for the high level component of my org, me included, to have to defend a QL 150 base. What I want, is to realistically be able to, without invariably losing it to a bunch of level 125 or lower twinks because I can't attack them, and can't heal or buff or otherwise support the people who can.

Again whether your actions skew the balance because you like causing people greif or your actions skew the balance because you want to support your organization fully, it doesn't change the fact you're skewing the balance. Your actions, noble they maybe be, are almost as bad an an intentional griefer. The only difference being he's doing the damage on purpose and you're doing it accidently.

Originally posted by Jynne
Edit - But NW was advertised as having a place for orgs with small numbers of players, and orgs in the middle as far as their levels go. Before this change that place was very, very small; now I can't help but think that the niche promised to orgs like mine has been removed. It seems like I paid $20 for nothing but a headache.

I believe that this promise is still availible, even with the current change. But the catch is it's now the responsibility of the organization to balance out the levels in their org. Funcom can't recruit for your organization. Only you can. Orgs that are top or bottom heavy have no choice if they want to participate AND survive.

The other half of the equation lay in what I called the MetaOrganization. I'm not stupid enough to think an average level organization can recruit enough high level members to hold off organizations like Storm. But through an alliance system that allows organizations to band together for mutual protection of their investments, they can have a fair shot at it. That is Funcom's responsibility to the game: to bring in a formal Alliance system that allows organizations to maintain their individual identities while pooling their resources to become greater than the individual pieces.

You want something to do? Push for that instead. The pressure you're putting on everyone right now would be of far better use there than complaining and threatening to quit. People eventually tune that stuff out.

[_____________Rebbeca]

Originally posted by Hypos
I was not commenting on your guild at all, Rebecca. In the portion of my statement, that you quoted, I was saying that we did not form our guild trying to take advantage of the rule set. We formed it for social reasons. Your quote, "Everybody makes a choice in what org they will be in, you have made yours and now you must live with it." says that since I chose my guild I should be silent and accept anything that happens without complaint. It's the equivalent of someone saying that crats never should have been able to complain about pet problems or their nanos that were broken from launch or their problems in the PvP area. It's simply a more wordy way of writing STFU.

Well this is quickly becoming a neverending arguement so I must say.. you got me there But there is no way FC can balace these rule changes for every org. I see this as hurting the least amount of people with it.

Your first post in this thread showed that you didn't take this topic seriously. It was a light hearted attempt to express disagreement without adding any real content. Your second post basically said "It's helpful for one thing, so I don't care if you're screwed over." Your third post, which I quoted, was just completely callous and emphasized your disregard for the negative effects of this change.

It's helpful for a great number of people. Can you not see that? Do you honestly like high level healers healing really low levels? All non healers have been hampered by pvp limits in the past, now healers are effected. Sorry that I like to joke around some.

At no point was Jynne saying she wanted to go gank some level 10 chars; but you refused to see that there's anything else here. I understand completely the problems with docs getting involved with low level combat. There was a very large thread on the topic here: Proposed design: If you can't be attacked, you can't assist with buffs and healing. If you'd like more detail on the pluses and minuses of this change, as well as the various alternatives that were suggested, please feel free to review it.

Maybe Jynne has no intentions to abuse the rules, but others do. Until FC comes up with the perfect solution that makes everybody happy, this is what we are stuck with. I'd rather see the free for all range be moved back to 100-125 anyway. I'm sorry I don't sugar coat my thoughts. If I offend people, it's not intentional... but now it seems like I have a fan

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


Again whether your actions skew the balance because you like causing people greif or your actions skew the balance because you want to support your organization fully, it doesn't change the fact you're skewing the balance. Your actions, noble they maybe be, are almost as bad an an intentional griefer. The only difference being he's doing the damage on purpose and you're doing it accidently.

Please Kuroshio explain to me exactly WHAT is so VERY WRONG with a level 170 player having a level 150 base?! I don't see it, I really don't. Please explain to me why I can't expect to be able to defend QL 150 towers belonging to my guild. Explain to me why PvP brackets that allow people to attack QL 150 bases while players that are just 10 levels higher than the base are prevented from defending it, are a good thing? Why?

I believe that this promise is still availible, even with the current change. But the catch is it's now the responsibility of the organization to balance out the levels in their org. Funcom can't recruit for your organization. Only you can. Orgs that are top or bottom heavy have no choice if they want to participate AND survive.

And we were all led to believe otherwise through every avenue available to Funcom. Now, call me a fool for believing it, because do I ever feel like one, but don't say I'm wrong to complain as a customer when the product I paid for does not perform as advertised.

The other half of the equation lay in what I called the MetaOrganization. I'm not stupid enough to think an average level organization can recruit enough high level members to hold off organizations like Storm. But through an alliance system that allows organizations to band together for mutual protection of their investments, they can have a fair shot at it. That is Funcom's responsibility to the game: to bring in a formal Alliance system that allows organizations to maintain their individual identities while pooling their resources to become greater than the individual pieces.

You want something to do? Push for that instead. The pressure you're putting on everyone right now would be of far better use there than complaining and threatening to quit. People eventually tune that stuff out.

I have put out ideas for alliance systems several times. I don't believe Funcom will listen to it any more than they listened to practically everyone who commented on this system in the now-closed, previously-sticky thread saying it would squeeze mid level guilds out of the game.

So, at this point I can't say I have very much faith in Funcom, but I'm a disgruntled consumer who expects the service she is paying for to actually improve. I'm a customer who expects the product she's paid for to behave in the manner it was promised to.

I'd love to see lower level guilds protected from higher level interference. But there are ways to do it that don't include the negative effects of the change they did implement. And I suggested several in the other thread.

But the limiting system that Cz promised wouldn't go live until after Christmas, went in two weeks early after only one day on test. And it's yet another broken system to go with yet another broken promise. This is more like the straw the breaks the camel's back, than an isolated incident that I just can't stand.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jynne
Please Kuroshio explain to me exactly WHAT is so VERY WRONG with a level 170 player having a level 150 base?! I don't see it, I really don't. Please explain to me why I can't expect to be able to defend QL 150 towers belonging to my guild. Explain to me why PvP brackets that allow people to attack QL 150 bases while players that are just 10 levels higher than the base are prevented from defending it, are a good thing? Why?

The lower levels characters want protection from the higher level characters. That runs counter to the higher level characters wanting to protect their lower level investments (be they characters or bases). Unfortunately this is a situation where it can't be both ways.

Yes, there are gaps between the PvP attacking range and the PvP 'defending' range. But again there are more people not affected by those gaps than there are people affected by them.

Originally posted by Jynne

And we were all led to believe otherwise through every avenue available to Funcom. Now, call me a fool for believing it, because do I ever feel like one, but don't say I'm wrong to complain as a customer when the product I paid for does not perform as advertised.

Funcom can't help it if your organization is top heavy or bottom heavy to adequately support a base on the extreme ends of your org's average level. But that's not stopping you from trying. Nor is it stopping you from recruiting people so you can adequately defend them. The only thing that is stopping you is yourself.

Originally posted by Jynne
[i]
I have put out ideas for alliance systems several times. I don't believe Funcom will listen to it any more than they listened to practically everyone who commented on this system in the now-closed, previously-sticky thread saying it would squeeze mid level guilds out of the game.

So, at this point I can't say I have very much faith in Funcom, but I'm a disgruntled consumer who expects the service she is paying for to actually improve. I'm a customer who expects the product she's paid for to behave in the manner it was promised to.

I'd love to see lower level guilds protected from higher level interference. But there are ways to do it that don't include the negative effects of the change they did implement. And I suggested several in the other thread.

But the limiting system that Cz promised wouldn't go live until after Christmas, went in two weeks early after only one day on test. And it's yet another broken system to go with yet another broken promise. This is more like the straw the breaks the camel's back, than an isolated incident that I just can't stand.

So you pitched the idea for an alliance system. That's good. Then you go ranting how little faith you have in Funcom, how much everything they do sucks, and how you're gonna quit if you don't get your way NOW. That's bad. That's my 10 year old cousin on a bad day, in fact ('Princess Simone' is the primary reason I don't have kids ). You're not satisfied with any solution they offer. You fail to acknowledge that you, personally, might have to make a sacrifice so that others can enjoy the game. And you refuse to give them any time to create a better solution. You're wasting so much effort in complaining about everything that anyone that reads a good idea from you is likely to skip over it because you fall right back into 'Disgruntled Customer' mode. I did and I get a perverse pleasure out of arguing with you so I generally read almost everything you post. At least until I get my fill of 'Disgruntled Customer' and the people that invariably follow.

But seriously now...Short of going with completely unrestricted PvP, what solution is availible RIGHT NOW that would satisfy the number of people that were complaining about outside buffs ruining PvP (remember: this has been a long term complaint even before the Notum Wars) and would satisfy you? Honestly, there isn't one. Everything I've seen proposed prolly requires coding completely new features.

I know an alliance system is needed. That much became blatantly obvious the first time I was in a mission and got a message that my org's towers were under attack. But at the same time I realize in order to do an alliance system correctly, they need time to program it correctly. But taking that time wasn't an option given the pressure to release the Notum Wars for the holiday season AND the resulting pressure put on them by the people facing near invulnerable opponents through the actions of outside healers. In hindsight, we should have been able to see this change coming from around the corner

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Rebecca

It's helpful for a great number of people. Can you not see that? Do you honestly like high level healers healing really low levels? All non healers have been hampered by pvp limits in the past, now healers are effected.

Of course I can see value for lowbies in letting them determine their own fates. But this change doesn't come close to doing what you're assuming it does. Here's a partial list of nanos that can unbalance low level PvP: heals, RRFE, MoP, Failing Impregnability, Dr Hack 'n Quack, GSF, Mochams, PNH, Pit Lizard form. This change removes one of those from the equation. The others can all be cast outside the LC area and carried in. This change was simply a heal nerf that does not accomplish it's designated goal. And that's before getting into the concept of equipment and implants. Again, if you want a thorough rundown of the pluses and minuses, please see the thread Proposed design: If you can't be attacked, you can't assist with buffs and healing. It covers this stuff in a level of detail neither you nor I would want to get into here.

Perhaps I wrote this in invisible electrons last time. Here is is again:

posted by Hypos

We're not saying that there was no problem here. We're not saying that it did not need to be addressed.

What we're saying is that this solution was ill thought out and untested. It introduces as many problems as it solves. We need to find a better solution.

posted by Rebecca

Sorry that I like to joke around some.

I took it too hard. I honestly am thinking that parking my char may be the best thing I could do for my guild. I'm downright bummed over that. I just wasn't in the mood for the attitude in your posts and it got under my collar more than I like to let things do that.

[Brutal Truuth]

I realy realy hate to interject here Kuroshio , but this comment :

what solution is availible RIGHT NOW that would satisfy the number of people that were complaining about outside buffs ruining PvP (remember: this has been a long term complaint even before the Notum Wars) and would satisfy you?

realy bugs me wanna know why ?





















Because The "nerf" they implemented Only effects Land control areas. It does not effect Camelot , Will of force , MMD or any other "True" PvP area. Maybe If FC was consistant in their implementation then maybe we would have no ground to stand on in this argument

In these areas I cant PvP 130's , im bound by my PvP bracket. But i sure as hell can heal that 130 if need be If your going to throw a nerf in on outside buffs then start with where they came from , not with where it is now

[Brutal Truuth]

as a matter of fact , lets just make All Buffs Team only . That is the basic message FC has been sending us all along anyways .... team based

Imaginary Patch notes

All Nanos ( buff , heal , wrangle , ransack, Dot, HoT, Temp HP, RRFE, Treatment , HE/jobes, Harmonic , NCU, Grid, Essance, TTS, UA, Rapid Palsy, root, Nuke, etc etc etc ) have now become Team only


What a glorious Future we have , all team Based with everyone weilding Leetdolls or Pillows ... No crits / heals / dots/ debuffs ... everyone wearing GA4 and casting NS2 and then TMS'ing for good measure .

[Jynne]

Kuroshio, you dodged this issue I'm talking about: Is quality level 150 too low of a base for a level 170 player to expect to be able to fight at?

I had some faith in Funcom before they started going back to 12.6 techniques - installing patches full of serious and known bugs, installing patches on a friday, installing patches that fix things by breaking others, or, as now, installing patches with only one day on the test server! They can't have actually tested this system out. And that what this thread is about. Not that this is bad idea, but that it's a bad implementation of that idea.

The whole point of this thread, if you've actually read it, wasn't to say that high level people shouldn't be kept from interfering inlow level battles. It's to show with actual numbers and analysis how the current pvp level brackets are broken with the 'free for all' point at level 150.

Boy, this whole flame war could have been avoided if people would try reading things before they started flaming them.

[_____________Rebbeca]

Originally posted by Jynne

Boy, this whole flame war could have been avoided if people would try reading things before they started flaming them.

oops

Well my thought on QL 150 tower battles is that I don't see any sort of problems going on with a horde of lvl 100-125 people storming in and taking a base while immune to the defenders attacks. 150s right now are getting taken over by hordes of high level people. There are very few orgs that are able to defend themselves from these kinds of attacks without outside help. Others may have had different experiences, but that's what I've seen so far.

Lowering the free for all range would be a start I think.

[________________Sent]

Originally posted by Azzazzimon

Like I said, I agree that it sucks for us, but we can have pretty good PvP usually, the lowbie tower PvP is totally ruined by high lvls healing, and now if a lvl 130 want to help he need to team to a high lvl to get healing, else he will have to fight in his lvl range without high lvl healing.

Low level PvP is the domain of lowlevel twinks with highlevel players supporting them no matter how you slice it. The normal "new" player doesn't stand a chance. There is no real lowlevel PvP experience for that reason Funcom shouldn't even bother trying to create one. Lowlevel players can't even survive on their own a trip into the enemy zone, inorder to stage an attack. What is the point of something like a ql20 base?

PvP needs to be open, levels 1 through 200. If anyone that's under level 100 has a problem with it, they can level up. It's not exactly hard anymore. If a highlevel ORG wants to expose all their bases to attack, or an individual wants a PvP flag then let them take down a ql10 base. The checks and balances were already in place, if they are not good enough, make them more severe. It's not like a true group of level 10's will ever reach an enemy base to stage a fight.

If Funcom wants to create a "true" lowlevel PvP experience then it needs to be a seperate zone, a "holo world" with checks on the QL of weapons, armor, implants, misc items, currently running buffs etc ... not just the level of the character.

As it is, these "limits" just create a world of stupid ... TAB, Q, TAB, Q, TAB, Q ... wtf!!! this sucks!

Know what I mean?

[_______________Hypos]

I think what'll happen here is some level 175ish types are gonna build some QL150 towers. Then some level 125ish types will tear it down and the 175ish won't be able to do anything. They'll build their own QL150 and then the 175ish will tear it down and the 125ish won't be able to do anything about it.

Basically, we'll have lots of towers being killed. At least in the under QL200 ranges.

[shadowgod]

i'm not adding anything to this flame fest, but after blowing 20 minutes reading most of this stuff.. i find it quite funny.

and as one of the people who called for this fix, i did enjoy the rants by people calling this a nerf.

now, you people calling it a nerf, i'll tell you something.. i know you wont care.. but i like to type sometimes...

every tower battle i have been in, there has always been a level 100+ doc standing beside one or two level 50-70 people (roughly my pvp range) healing them. me? i have no lvl 100+ doc friends to help me, but i was lucky to have a few others of my faction with me in my pvp range.. and it was nearly impossible for us to kill the enemy with that doc with them. the only way we were able to kill them is if there was lag with their healing and we got all our hits in before the heal took effect. this is what we call no fun and total BS (no, i'm not talking about broken shores).

yes, this was a quick fix. a quick fix that worked. there are still things being ironed out that we did not discover during our beta testing, this is software for yea... go figure.

the thing you must then do is form alliances. there do need to be alliance commands to help those who form them communicate when they're needed. as example, my guild owns a QL21 tower. me being level 63, i have no chance of being able to defend it. but this doesnt matter... for i've got alliances with other guilds and they will come help defend my tower when i need it. because they know, and they have seen me out defending other towers. most the time i dont wait to be asked to help, i see a tower being attacked and i go jump in.

Notum Wars is suppose to be about Wars, not small little private battles. Wars involve creating alliances and helping each other out.

i do plan on restructuring my guild soon as well, so we can defend our towers ourself better. as i really dont have anyone in the range that can defend such a level tower. times change, you have to adapt.

i'm very pleased of the fix.. how ever quick-n-dirty it was. now once the teamming "exploit" (maybe its a bug, i consider it an exploit) is fixed, tower battles will be fun for me and people my level again.

ok, your flame fest may continue!

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Brutal Truuth
I realy realy hate to interject here Kuroshio , but this comment :

realy bugs me wanna know why ?

Because The "nerf" they implemented Only effects Land control areas. It does not effect Camelot , Will of force , MMD or any other "True" PvP area. Maybe If FC was consistant in their implementation then maybe we would have no ground to stand on in this argument

In these areas I cant PvP 130's , im bound by my PvP bracket. But i sure as hell can heal that 130 if need be If your going to throw a nerf in on outside buffs then start with where they came from , not with where it is now

Dying in Camelot won't cost me or my org millions in credits. Losing a fight in WTF won't remove bonuses for my organization.

And you damn sure couldn't drag my cold dead body to Meetmedere, let alone getting me to go there while still breathing.

While the buff/heal situation may have been tolerable for the 2HO and MMD title collectors, it is wholly unacceptable for orgs pouring millions in credits into these investments. So from that perspective alone, the ingame one that completely ignores the people that paid $20 to setup towers, an org stand more to lose than people in Camelot, MMD, 2HO, 4 Holes, or any other location where the only thing on the line is a title. So don't expect me to cry you a river if those places got affected. A title doesn't carry anywhere near the weight my org invests in a base.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jynne
Kuroshio, you dodged this issue I'm talking about: Is quality level 150 too low of a base for a level 170 player to expect to be able to fight at?

I had some faith in Funcom before they started going back to 12.6 techniques - installing patches full of serious and known bugs, installing patches on a friday, installing patches that fix things by breaking others, or, as now, installing patches with only one day on the test server! They can't have actually tested this system out. And that what this thread is about. Not that this is bad idea, but that it's a bad implementation of that idea.

The whole point of this thread, if you've actually read it, wasn't to say that high level people shouldn't be kept from interfering inlow level battles. It's to show with actual numbers and analysis how the current pvp level brackets are broken with the 'free for all' point at level 150.

Boy, this whole flame war could have been avoided if people would try reading things before they started flaming them.

Jynne, what you fail to realize is I know there are some gaps in the PvP ranges. It's impossible not to have those gaps without sacrificing one side or the other. You ended up on the side that got sacrificed, the healers and buffers.

I imagine the reason being was you have other options that a person level 120 does not have. The level 120 attack has only has one choice when faced with you healing another level 120 character: continue attacking the person you're keeping fully healed or leave in disgust. You, on the other hand, have a whole different class of towers and group of people to fully support. Granted, it might get your ass shot off for doing so. But that's the risk you gotta take

[_____________Nalissa]

haha

Azz likes it because his entire guild is within PvP range of each other..
Others like it because they are low level and again they are within PvP range..
Some like it because they are too foolish to see some of the negative ramifications..

People are so narrow minded. The main problem with this game is it is ruled by people with very little experience in the game. The FC staff falls under this category, as do the loudest mouths in the forum.

Here's my point of view: Im within range of all my guild's healers. I'm also not concerned as i never had any inclination to heal lowbies other than in BY1 and i damn sure will have a good laugh now when the lowbie guilds are getting raped via some exploit of this or other. In fact, if an obvious exploit rears it's head that is more of a loophole than a bug exploit I will probably use it if I for some reason need to.

However, it is a foolish rule. Ckoke on it kiddies. That's what you get for being so narrow minded.

[Brutal Truuth]

A title doesn't carry anywhere near the weight my org invests in a base.

YES ! w00t , finaly getting somewhere.

What you are basicaly telling me though is that because im level 172 that i cant have a ql 150 controler. That if i do have a ql 150 controler that i cant possibly defend it when the time comes. Where is the justice in the fact that i cant defend my Base ? Are you saying the 20$ i spent on my NW isnt the same as yours ? That I dont have the right to Defend my base ? That my ingame credits arnt the same as yours ?

In a game where there are very limited areas to control with even fewer ql 200 land control areas , I am forced to place a ql 150 CT. Where is the justification of a level 120 coming in and destroying all that i have worked for , all the time and credits i spent to build it, just to sit there idle and watch them destroy it while i can do nothing about it . Explain to me that .

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


Jynne, what you fail to realize is I know there are some gaps in the PvP ranges. It's impossible not to have those gaps without sacrificing one side or the other. You ended up on the side that got sacrificed, the healers and buffers.

I'm sorry if I don't accept the notion of sacrificing any portion of the player base for the sake of a screwed up quick-fix. God forbid Funcom take more than one day to test over the system and try to implement something that isn't broken... not even for all healers, just for high level healers who aren't in high-level-oriented organizations. And after stating that they'd test and tweak it until after Christmas.

And the buffers didn't get sacrificed, only healers. You can buff up a level 2 with RRFE and Hack'n'Quack if they had the NCU for it and send them into a tower battle and they'd "ownzor" the whole place by themselves. I guess the defense team's buffers got sacrificed to the extent that they'll have to team up with their newbies before buffing them, but in the end, it was only heals. Oh, and pet users got screwed too, because they can't buff or heal their higher-level pets in a LC zone now.

Nerf engis!

I imagine the reason being was you have other options that a person level 120 does not have. The level 120 attack has only has one choice when faced with you healing another level 120 character: continue attacking the person you're keeping fully healed or leave in disgust. You, on the other hand, have a whole different class of towers and group of people to fully support. Granted, it might get your ass shot off for doing so. But that's the risk you gotta take

The highest level base my organization can reasonably expect to have is QL 150. QL 150 is not low level. It can be attacked by level 200 players. I accept that if it is, much of it will be destroyed even if we win the battle. But either way, I'll at least be able to fight them.

What is unacceptable is seeing it destroyed by people I can't do anything about because of artificial PvP limitations that everyone pointed out since NW beta were broken. Is that really so hard for you to fathom?

It's broken. There is no justification for not fixing it when the fix is quite possibly as simple as moving the pvp cap down from 150 to 125.