Attention Healers in Notum Wars...

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Azzazzimon
I don't really see the problem, if you are lower lvl and want to help the higher lvl, just team, if you are higher lvl and want to interupt low lvl PvP, you can't.

Sounds great to me if it works that way.

But I can only team with 5 other people at a time.

[________________Miir]

You're making it sound like the only thing doctors do in mass PvP is heal lower level players

[_______________Hypos]

It is a strange situation. I may very well park my doc now. Further leveling will only result in gimping my ability to heal my guild mates.

posted by Rebecca

Everybody makes a choice in what org they will be in, you have made yours and now you must live with it.

Rebecca, I joined this guild because it's where my friends are. This guild is not kept together because we run around and own everything. We don't. We're together because we like each other. Game mechanics should not force us apart.

The thing that keeps me in this game is not the uber camping or the doing the same mission over and over again or even the many trips to reclaim I've been able to make trying to help defend people's towers. I'm here because I made some friends.

posted by Jynne

Lastly, I'm not flaming/angry with you, Rebbeca, I'm just really disappointed in Funcom.

You're a better person than I, Jynne. I find myself wishing Rebecca was on RK2 so I could create a "Do No Team With" list just to put her name on it.

posted by Miir

You're making it sound like the only thing doctors do in mass PvP is heal lower level players

All this thread was saying, Miir, is that a doc gimps his ability to help his guild by levelling past 150. The doc himself becomes slightly more powerful, but at the cost of becoming a less useful guild member.

[edit] fixed a typo

[________________Miir]

a doc gimps his ability to help his guild by levelling past 150. The doc himself becomes slightly more powerful, but at the cost of becoming a less useful guild member.

Slightly more powerful?
:O

If a doc levels past 150 they become slightly less effective at healing lower level players in Tower Raids... that's it.

The same goes for every other profession if they level past 150.
The soldier/enforcer can't attack the lower level playerrs attacking the base.
The NTs can't nuke and blind the lower level players.
The Fixers cant snare and root the lower level players.


Every other profession is bound by the level restrictions in the PvP ruleset, why shouldn't doctors?

[_____________Zalteff]

My first post.. wow.

Well, I'm a level 10 Meta-physicist, and I've been looking at some of the awesome buffs I get over QL 150.. And I can agree with Jynne's point from the other post she referenced to. If you cannot attack someone in your PVP range, so be it. However, the healing/buffing cap in PvP should take into effect the span that occurs when you have say, a level 120 enforcer and a level 180 doc both fighting a level 150 soldier. The common link in there should be the level of the mob they're attacking. If you are both within the PVP range of your target, and are teamed in the same fight, you should be able to heal each other. I think the level of your opponent should be the common link between the caps of healing during PvP. Just my two cents, and what I hope is a useful introduction to this forum.

Regards,
Zalteff

Level 10 Meta-Physicist (Rimor)
Blades of Honor

[_____________Rebbeca]

Originally posted by Hypos
Rebecca, I joined this guild because it's where my friends are. This guild is not kept together because we run around and own everything. We don't. We're together because we like each other. Game mechanics should not force us apart.

I do not lead any uber guild at all. We are a group of friends geared towards higher levels. Sorry but if you have no clue about me or my guild, you have no right to judge me. If I wanted uber loot and to camp all day, I'd leave my org in a second.

[Brutal Truuth]

Azz : i want you to think about the situations that are put infront of us .

You can have only 1 speficic type ql tower . which means (for the higher uber guilds) 250 / 200 / 150 . Now with the new PvP rules , if you place that 150 tower you are open to be attacked by people lvl 120 - 200 . Now say a group of 120 - 130 people come to attack your base. How will you defend it ? You ( as a lvl 200 Ma) cant attack these lowbies , which means you cant defend your base. It forces you to find people who are below level 163. Now for guilds who have "sister" guilds full of alts who fall in this range , it can be easy (unless there are only a few who fall in that pvp range) ..... But what about those who dont have a "sister" guild ? who dont have alts , who cant find ql 200+ land to control ?

This does make people leave their smaller guilds for the larger ones. While i know this dosnt bother you , you realy should consider those of us who cant get a ql 200 area and have to settle for a 150. ( but wait , now we cant defend it )

[Kuro]

The problem goes deeper than people really give it credit for. Unfortunately, that leaves room for people like Jynne to essentially say "Screw everyone else. I want to play my way".

The root of the problem is protecting the lower level guilds from the high level guild interference. So long as that takes place, there's going to be problems for the mixed orgs.

PvP level limits were put in place to prevent high level Individuals from ganking low level individuals. Since the rule applied to only the Individual, orgs grew to have a mixture of levels. The PvP rules didn't apply to most of the things they did. That changed with the Notum Wars.

Now PvP involves the entire organization. And the Individual PvP rules don't fit for Organizational PvP. Organizations with a mixture of levels didn't blend those levels very well, so some orgs are top heavy and some are bottom heavy. Which leaves the people in the middle and on the extreme opposite ends upset because they can't participate.

Jynne wants to be able to help her org regardless of level. That's admirable and that's what an org member should want to do. I'm not going to accuse Jynne of being the type of person that would take advantage of being able to do so. But I will accuse Jynne of ignoring that there are people who will specifically go out of their way to take advantage of such a system, making others as miserable as she is under the new system.

Solution-wise, there's not much that I can think of. The only way to allow people like Jynne the freedom they wants is to make it extremely undesirable for them to assist lower levels, while still leaving them the option. Things like making them PvP enabled for a couple hours AND instant aggro from all NPCs, including guards. Though I think the death looping would drive them insane

In the end, I'm afraid one of 3 things is going to happen

1. Funcom will implement something along the lines of the 'MetaOrganization'. Where through supporting alliances and coalitions, a member of an organization can assist their org's goals. So while people like Jynne can only interact with a few people in her organization, she can assist a larger number of people her organization is allied with.
2. The organizations are either going to reshape themselves, with lower level members going to organizations more suited to their level and gaming pace.
3. Organizations will refuse to participate.

While some people want to believe a whole bunch of people will take their toys and go home, I doubt #3 is very likely. People are enjoying themselves from what I've seen, both here and ingame. So sorry Jynne, I don't think you're representative of the playerbase.

What I think will happen is a mixture of #1 and #2 in the end. Some organizations will reshape themselves. Not through a conscious effort on the org's part. But made at the individual level. Org members will leave their current org, go solo for a bit maybe, and then join a new org closer to themselves. #1 is inevitable, though how much Funcom actually implements is still in the dark.

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Brutal Truuth
Azz : i want you to think about the situations that are put infront of us .

You can have only 1 speficic type ql tower . which means (for the higher uber guilds) 250 / 200 / 150 . Now with the new PvP rules , if you place that 150 tower you are open to be attacked by people lvl 120 - 200 . Now say a group of 120 - 130 people come to attack your base. How will you defend it ? You ( as a lvl 200 Ma) cant attack these lowbies , which means you cant defend your base. It forces you to find people who are below level 163. Now for guilds who have "sister" guilds full of alts who fall in this range , it can be easy (unless there are only a few who fall in that pvp range) ..... But what about those who dont have a "sister" guild ? who dont have alts , who cant find ql 200+ land to control ?

This does make people leave their smaller guilds for the larger ones. While i know this dosnt bother you , you realy should consider those of us who cant get a ql 200 area and have to settle for a 150. ( but wait , now we cant defend it )

Erin, you not even talking about same thing here, we also have a ql 150 base that we would have prob to defend if lvl 120-130 people attacked it, but what does that have to do with healing?


I don't like the lvl 150 cap in PvP, I think it's too high and would like a lvl 100 cap or max lvl 125, I would also like that all that attack your base are open for attack, even if lower lvl.

But now we have this cap and I think it's great that the cap is on healing too because right now higher lvl healers ruin alot for low lvl tower PvP and those guilds that are low lvl have no chance to hold land because other guilds are coming with high lvl people healing the attackers.

It sucks for me and you protecting our ql 150 bases, but I think it's great for low lvl tower PvP.

[_____________Rebbeca]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
The problem goes deeper than people really give it credit for. Unfortunately, that leaves room for people like Jynne to essentially say "Screw everyone else. I want to play my way".

The root of the problem is protecting the lower level guilds from the high level guild interference. So long as that takes place, there's going to be problems for the mixed orgs.

PvP level limits were put in place to prevent high level Individuals from ganking low level individuals. Since the rule applied to only the Individual, orgs grew to have a mixture of levels. The PvP rules didn't apply to most of the things they did. That changed with the Notum Wars.

Now PvP involves the entire organization. And the Individual PvP rules don't fit for Organizational PvP. Organizations with a mixture of levels didn't blend those levels very well, so some orgs are top heavy and some are bottom heavy. Which leaves the people in the middle and on the extreme opposite ends upset because they can't participate.

Jynne wants to be able to help her org regardless of level. That's admirable and that's what an org member should want to do. I'm not going to accuse Jynne of being the type of person that would take advantage of being able to do so. But I will accuse Jynne of ignoring that there are people who will specifically go out of their way to take advantage of such a system, making others as miserable as she is under the new system.

Solution-wise, there's not much that I can think of. The only way to allow people like Jynne the freedom they wants is to make it extremely undesirable for them to assist lower levels, while still leaving them the option. Things like making them PvP enabled for a couple hours AND instant aggro from all NPCs, including guards. Though I think the death looping would drive them insane

In the end, I'm afraid one of 3 things is going to happen

1. Funcom will implement something along the lines of the 'MetaOrganization'. Where through supporting alliances and coalitions, a member of an organization can assist their org's goals. So while people like Jynne can only interact with a few people in her organization, she can assist a larger number of people her organization is allied with.
2. The organizations are either going to reshape themselves, with lower level members going to organizations more suited to their level and gaming pace.
3. Organizations will refuse to participate.

While some people want to believe a whole bunch of people will take their toys and go home, I doubt #3 is very likely. People are enjoying themselves from what I've seen, both here and ingame. So sorry Jynne, I don't think you're representative of the playerbase.

What I think will happen is a mixture of #1 and #2 in the end. Some organizations will reshape themselves. Not through a conscious effort on the org's part. But made at the individual level. Org members will leave their current org, go solo for a bit maybe, and then join a new org closer to themselves. #1 is inevitable, though how much Funcom actually implements is still in the dark.

I agree with this completely.. I just didn't say it as well. Whether you like it our not, the org you chose impacts how the game plays out for you. I made my choice and everyone else should as well.

[Detonate]

Hmmmmmmmm, Azzazzimon seems way to smart to be a clanner.

[Jynne]

Kuroshio - I'm not ignoring that people were exploiting the old system. It's just that the new system makes the problems worse, not better, and has the added effect of harming people who want to play honestly.

People intent on exploiting the rules at the low end will still be able to, though it might take them a little more effort to figure it out now. But now they can exploit the rules at the high end by attacking a level 150 base with level 110-125 characters, and mooning and making fun of anyone over level 160 who comes to defend it and finds that not only can they not engage the attackers, they also can't buff or heal any of their guildmates who can.

Now yes, I do want to help my own org out regardless of level. I think as a matter of philosophy everyone should. But I also realize that keeping high level people out of low level battles is a good idea for game design. But this system doesn't accomplish its goals in a satisfactory manner, and introduces additional problems and puts stress on organizations. And those problems and stresses disproportionately fall onto one single profession's shoulders.

But I guess that Funcom doesn't care what happens to any given organization.

I'd swallow all of this a lot easier if I could get a refund for notum wars, or at least ask about the possibility without CZ trying to heckle the notion of it. I've paid for the product "Notum Wars" and I am not getting what was advertised.

EDIT: PS - I realize I'm not representative of the player base, but I pay the same per month, and unless and until I decide to cancel my account, I do have expectations as a consumer.

[Brutal Truuth]

Originally posted by Azzazzimon


Erin, you not even talking about same thing here, we also have a ql 150 base that we would have prob to defend if lvl 120-130 people attacked it, but what does that have to do with healing?


.

The problem lyes in the Fact that the one person you have in ur guild that can attack these toons cant be assisted by others outside the PvP range.

My 150 base gets attacked by 120-130 group and i call in a few 130 toons , am i able to heal them for helping me protect my base ? or do i sit there Idle because of the "nerf" and watch them die ? That is the point of my post.

I agree it sucks , but daamnit it means i cant place my 150 tower and defend it reliably. If i could atleast heal the people defending my base in that PvP range then i wouldnt be biatching.

No easy answer to it all , but it realy realy bites that im helpless in a situation like that.

[Brutal Truuth]

Originally posted by Jynne

I'd swallow all of this a lot easier if I could get a refund for notum wars, or at least ask about the possibility without CZ trying to heckle the notion of it. I've paid for the product "Notum Wars" and I am not getting what was advertised.

Yup. Sign me up on a refund also . PvP in controled areas is worthless and the towers and limited areas are pointless. A pure waste of 20$ for me. (not to mention i could never afford a stilleto nor ever equipt it )

[Jynne]

Finally, as I throw my hands up in disgust...

I think people are getting the wrong idea from what I've said here.

At level 167 I don't want to be healing level 75s at a QL 50 tower battle. That's cheesey, yes. It's boring.

I want to be healing people who are level 100, or even 125, at a QL 150 tower battle. And now I can't, and the more I level, the fewer levels worth of people... people who are high enough level to be in a QL 150 battle... I am allowed to heal.

Low level battles are one thing. Taken in isolation this change is great for them.

But the change wasn't isolated to low level areas and low level battles. I'm talking about how this change adversely affects mid and mid-high level organizations, in mid to mid-high level areas.

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Brutal Truuth


The problem lyes in the Fact that the one person you have in ur guild that can attack these toons cant be assisted by others outside the PvP range.

My 150 base gets attacked by 120-130 group and i call in a few 130 toons , am i able to heal them for helping me protect my base ? or do i sit there Idle because of the "nerf" and watch them die ? That is the point of my post.

I agree it sucks , but daamnit it means i cant place my 150 tower and defend it reliably. If i could atleast heal the people defending my base in that PvP range then i wouldnt be biatching.

No easy answer to it all , but it realy realy bites that im helpless in a situation like that.

Like I said, I agree that it sucks for us, but we can have pretty good PvP usually, the lowbie tower PvP is totally ruined by high lvls healing, and now if a lvl 130 want to help he need to team to a high lvl to get healing, else he will have to fight in his lvl range without high lvl healing.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jynne
Kuroshio - I'm not ignoring that people were exploiting the old system. It's just that the new system makes the problems worse, not better, and has the added effect of harming people who want to play honestly.

People intent on exploiting the rules at the low end will still be able to, though it might take them a little more effort to figure it out now. But now they can exploit the rules at the high end by attacking a level 150 base with level 110-125 characters, and mooning and making fun of anyone over level 160 who comes to defend it and finds that not only can they not engage the attackers, they also can't buff or heal any of their guildmates who can.

Now yes, I do want to help my own org out regardless of level. I think as a matter of philosophy everyone should. But I also realize that keeping high level people out of low level battles is a good idea for game design. But this system doesn't accomplish its goals in a satisfactory manner, and introduces additional problems and puts stress on organizations. And those problems and stresses disproportionately fall onto one single profession's shoulders.

But I guess that Funcom doesn't care what happens to any given organization.

I'd swallow all of this a lot easier if I could get a refund for notum wars, or at least ask about the possibility without CZ trying to heckle the notion of it. I've paid for the product "Notum Wars" and I am not getting what was advertised.

EDIT: PS - I realize I'm not representative of the player base, but I pay the same per month, and unless and until I decide to cancel my account, I do have expectations as a consumer.

At what point does your expectations as a customer stop taking precedent over the expectations of another customer? Or 2 customers? or 200 customers? That's what the entire point it that you're not acknowledging.

Yes, the change falls squarely on the doctor profession. Yes, these changes will affect organizations. But the catch in the situation is that there are probably more people and more organizations that need some type of protection from the high level interference than there are people negatively affected by the change AND unwilling to accept the damage they were doing.

And I'd be cautious using the word 'exploit'. Because despite your good intentions wanting to help all your org members, you're just as bad as someone intentionally attempting to make people miserable. The intentions here don't matter. What matters are the results: lower level characters and smaller organizations are frustrated by high level interference.

In this case, where no matter what you do is going to piss off people, you take the choice that pisses off the least amount of people. You're among the least amount of people, Jynne. Would it piss me off if I was a Doctor in a multi level organization? Dunno. I refuse to play a doctor. But chances are, given the type of person I am, I would be seriously reevaluating my Org status. Perhaps even talking to the org leadership about the possibility of sponsoring an org under my leadership, more in tune with my level.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


At what point does your expectations as a customer stop taking precedent over the expectations of another customer? Or 2 customers? or 200 customers? That's what the entire point it that you're not acknowledging.

Yes, the change falls squarely on the doctor profession. Yes, these changes will affect organizations. But the catch in the situation is that there are probably more people and more organizations that need some type of protection from the high level interference than there are people negatively affected by the change AND unwilling to accept the damage they were doing.

Maybe so. And I'm fairly sure my $12/month won't be missed when I come eventually to the point where I'm cancelling my account because the way I want to play doesn't fit in with the notions of the designers and my ability, or more specifically, my desire to adapt has run out. It happens. I wouldn't mind adapting to a decent system. But I'm getting really, really tired of scatter-shot implementations no matter how good the intentions behind the changes are. I've never said that protecting low level orgs from high level ones wasn't a noble idea. I've only ever said that the way they are doing it just creates a new problem for the people who are mid-level, and in mid-level orgs.

And I'd be cautious using the word 'exploit'. Because despite your good intentions wanting to help all your org members, you're just as bad as someone intentionally attempting to make people miserable. The intentions here don't matter. What matters are the results: lower level characters and smaller organizations are frustrated by high level interference.

An exploit is the use of a game mechanic in ways unintended by the designers to acquire an advantage one otherwise should not have had. Do you think the designers intend for level 110-125 teams to be the perfect wrecking crews for QL 150 bases? This system has basically made it so. I'd love for the high level component of my org, me included, to have to defend a QL 150 base. What I want, is to realistically be able to, without invariably losing it to a bunch of level 125 or lower twinks because I can't attack them, and can't heal or buff or otherwise support the people who can.

In this case, where no matter what you do is going to piss off people, you take the choice that pisses off the least amount of people. You're among the least amount of people, Jynne. Would it piss me off if I was a Doctor in a multi level organization? Dunno. I refuse to play a doctor. But chances are, given the type of person I am, I would be seriously reevaluating my Org status. Perhaps even talking to the org leadership about the possibility of sponsoring an org under my leadership, more in tune with my level.

Well, being the sort of person I am, I'll quit AO entirely before I leave my org over Notum Wars. Maybe it's cutting off my nose to spite my face, but I'd rather have no base at all, and be with my friends, than have a bunch of absolutely uber QL 250 towers with all sorts of great personal modifiers on them.

Edit - But NW was advertised as having a place for orgs with small numbers of players, and orgs in the middle as far as their levels go. Before this change that place was very, very small; now I can't help but think that the niche promised to orgs like mine has been removed. It seems like I paid $20 for nothing but a headache.

[________________Miir]

Do you think the designers intend for level 110-125 teams to be the perfect wrecking crews for QL 150 bases?

Precisely.
Have you ever seen a group of 200s attack a 150 base?
It's little more than a speedbump to them.


Do you think it was the designers intent to have a 150 base attacked by level 110-125s and defended by 110-125s being helaed by 200s?

I think the answer is obvious.


NW was advertised as having a place for orgs with small numbers of players, and orgs in the middle as far as their levels go. Before this change that place was very, very small; now I can't help but think that the niche promised to orgs like mine has been removed. It seems like I paid $20 for nothing but a headache.

Oh good grief!
You're starting to sound like a spoiled little brat.

This change was made so that low-mid level orgs could actually stand a chance against orgs with high level 'invulnerable' healers.

Try to put yourself in someone elses shoes.
How would you feel if your org attacked another tower and got slaughtered by invincible players being healed by high level docs?

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Rebecca

I do not lead any uber guild at all. We are a group of friends geared towards higher levels. Sorry but if you have no clue about me or my guild, you have no right to judge me. If I wanted uber loot and to camp all day, I'd leave my org in a second.

I was not commenting on your guild at all, Rebecca. In the portion of my statement, that you quoted, I was saying that we did not form our guild trying to take advantage of the rule set. We formed it for social reasons. Your quote, "Everybody makes a choice in what org they will be in, you have made yours and now you must live with it." says that since I chose my guild I should be silent and accept anything that happens without complaint. It's the equivalent of someone saying that crats never should have been able to complain about pet problems or their nanos that were broken from launch or their problems in the PvP area. It's simply a more wordy way of writing STFU.

Your first post in this thread showed that you didn't take this topic seriously. It was a light hearted attempt to express disagreement without adding any real content. Your second post basically said "It's helpful for one thing, so I don't care if you're screwed over." Your third post, which I quoted, was just completely callous and emphasized your disregard for the negative effects of this change.

At no point was Jynne saying she wanted to go gank some level 10 chars; but you refused to see that there's anything else here. I understand completely the problems with docs getting involved with low level combat. There was a very large thread on the topic here: Proposed design: If you can't be attacked, you can't assist with buffs and healing. If you'd like more detail on the pluses and minuses of this change, as well as the various alternatives that were suggested, please feel free to review it.