Attention Healers in Notum Wars...

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jynne
I'm sorry if I don't accept the notion of sacrificing any portion of the player base for the sake of a screwed up quick-fix. God forbid Funcom take more than one day to test over the system and try to implement something that isn't broken... not even for all healers, just for high level healers who aren't in high-level-oriented organizations. And after stating that they'd test and tweak it until after Christmas.

I'm still waiting to hear the solution to everyone's problem that doesn't lead to someone raping the lowbies while giving you, the highbie by comparison, the ability to participate. And I'd love to hear how someone can create new functionality in a time frame that satisfies you. It's easy to see that this quick fix was made from existing PvP code, which enabled it to be coded and implemented in short order. As for testing, your complaint isn't about the functionality of the fix. It's about the logic structure of the fix. Tell me, would you want the logic of new functionality to be based on the results of a handful of twinks that haven't seen the inside of the Live dimensions since they went to Test?

I admire the testers and go there on occasion when something is about to affect one of the professions I play. But they are not well suited for testing balance because the logistical differences between the Test Dimension and the Live Dimensions are too great. Heck, Camelot on Test is raided by maybe 10 to 15 people without anything but the mobs attacking them.

Originally posted by Jynne
And the buffers didn't get sacrificed, only healers. You can buff up a level 2 with RRFE and Hack'n'Quack if they had the NCU for it and send them into a tower battle and they'd "ownzor" the whole place by themselves. I guess the defense team's buffers got sacrificed to the extent that they'll have to team up with their newbies before buffing them, but in the end, it was only heals. Oh, and pet users got screwed too, because they can't buff or heal their higher-level pets in a LC zone now.

Nerf engis! The highest level base my organization can reasonably expect to have is QL 150. QL 150 is not low level. It can be attacked by level 200 players. I accept that if it is, much of it will be destroyed even if we win the battle. But either way, I'll at least be able to fight them.

What is unacceptable is seeing it destroyed by people I can't do anything about because of artificial PvP limitations that everyone pointed out since NW beta were broken. Is that really so hard for you to fathom?

It's broken. There is no justification for not fixing it when the fix is quite possibly as simple as moving the pvp cap down from 150 to 125.

So move the PvP cap down from level 150 to level 125 is your solution? You disagree with the placement of the unrestricted PvP cap is what this all boils down to. So get rid of the cap so you can heal your level 125 guild mates and screw the fact that opens the door for the level 200s to gleefully munch on them as well? I'm a Trader and I try to keep my diet healthier than that (babies are fattening ). But not everyone is so health conscious.

Face it, your solution sacrifices people as well. The only difference is, you're not one of those sacrificed so you can be satisfied with it. Either one doesn't really hurt me. I said drop the PvP range in tower combat all together. But I'm suicidal with my characters and don't really care if one of my alts gets vaporized in one shot. But some lowbie on their main might see thinggs another way...

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Brutal Truuth


YES ! w00t , finaly getting somewhere.

What you are basicaly telling me though is that because im level 172 that i cant have a ql 150 controler. That if i do have a ql 150 controler that i cant possibly defend it when the time comes. Where is the justice in the fact that i cant defend my Base ? Are you saying the 20$ i spent on my NW isnt the same as yours ? That I dont have the right to Defend my base ? That my ingame credits arnt the same as yours ?

In a game where there are very limited areas to control with even fewer ql 200 land control areas , I am forced to place a ql 150 CT. Where is the justification of a level 120 coming in and destroying all that i have worked for , all the time and credits i spent to build it, just to sit there idle and watch them destroy it while i can do nothing about it . Explain to me that .

What I'm basically telling you is that you might have to find other ways to support the people that can defend your level 150 base if it comes under attack by people outside your PvP range. Because so long as low level players want protection from high level players and high level players want to protect their investments, the two interest groups will always conflict. There is no middle ground. You're upset because you received the negative effects this time. I won't kid myself that you'd be happy as a clam if something allowed you to defend the QL150 base from anyone but too bad if it meant opening people up to attacks from lvl 200 players as well.

So how do you choose between decisions that both lead to negatively impacting players? Logically I'd look at how many people on both sides got negatively affected and factor how many of those negatively affected would be newer players (versus vets). Then choose accordingly.

Lets see. High level Docs along with, to lesser extents, MAs, Traders, and Adventurers (people with healing capabilities). Versus lower level characters from all 12 professions which include both vets on alts and people on their 'mains'... Hrm... What a choice there. Arguably 4 professions of vet players versus 12 professions of vet/newer players.

The decision is logical. You just don't agree with the choice nor the necessity of it because you got affected.

[Jynne]

Kuroshio, your last reply to my post merely proved beyond doubt you aren't really reading what I write. You're just a troll looking for something to flame and arguing for argumentation's sake. Or you're blinded by rose-lensed fanboi goggles. I don't really care which.

If you consider someone who's level 125 to be a lowbie in need of protection, you need your head examined. It's well over half the levels in the game, and it's fully 2/3 of the non-title-capped levels in the game. You aren't as powerful as a level 150 character, but you aren't an insect either, and if you really are still a newbie at level 125, you deserve the stomping you'll get at a large battle.

So Funcom hacked in a quick fix without testing it, again. It's not the testers' fault, or the test server environment's fault. How can we expect anyone to adequately test any system in only one day? No, it's the fault of the genius who decided to install it two weeks early.

Again, if you read, I said it might be as simple as dropping the unrestricted PvP cap. Most people I've talked to agree that it's too high in the context of QL 150 bases and should be lowered; many of them aren't over level 150, either. Level 125-149 players can have a great impact on level 180+ players in a battle. They aren't a negligible threat. They don't need someone holding their hand.

But in the end this system needed to undergo testing and it didn't. It doesn't matter how much time it takes, functions need to work right before they go in to production. Now we're stuck with a broken system on Live. It doesn't really protect newbies from high level interference (see my above point about RRFE and HOTs, that you conveniently ignored before), it just gives them a "shut-up-already" sucker-pop by papering over the problem. It's a bandaid being put where a tourniquet is needed to be effective.

And the other ways in which it is broken hurts everyone in guilds where all the members aren't in pvp range of each other. Which is, frankly speaking, pretty much everyone who isn't in a 150+ only guild. If that's the logic behind the fix that you're talking about, then hell yes I have a problem with it.

Now try reading this entire post before you click 'quote' and start flaming it. Oh wait, too late. Maybe I should have put this sentence at the top.

[Detonate]

120's can not take out a 150 base. I don't care what you say.

I'm a very well equipped 138 Adv with excellent heals, and lotsa HP.

Went to a 150 raid in DAV last night. When I got there most Omni's were dead, so I figured I didn't fly out there for nothing so I might as well go try and attack someone and get a free trip home to the reclaim.

The 150 towers will not attack me, until I attack anything else clan at the base.

So I trounce in to the PVP zone in range of maybe 3 towers. Do my supah leet(tm) Adventurer alpha strike on this Soldier who cast TMS.

Before I could even land my first heal I was dead.

I went back and scrolled through the damage. Guess what killed me? No, not the soldier. The towers.

I was repeatedly nailed for about 480 points of damage one after another, and the soldier got 3 hits on me for 200ish...

[Jynne]

Try having a team next time, Detonate, and staying out of the firing radius of three turrets at once. Since their range is limited to 40 meters, distance between towers is limited, and range overlap is limited, pretty much every base has a few spots where you can attack the towers without being in range of any other towers but the one you're attacking.

If you have one turret hitting you for 400-500 damage... while five people are hitting the turret and one is healing...

Yes, you can take out a level 150 base.

[Detonate]

That would be a very poorly designed base.
With no defenders.
And no Melee users.

And FYI, I've been in teams before, just not yesterday.

When was the last time you attacked a 150 base at 120?

[Jynne]

They didn't exist when I was 120 I have however fought around them with a level 70ish alt. Yes, I got owned. But then, that's what I expect to happen when I'm fighting at a spot twice my level.

By the way, these aren't necessarily poorly designed bases, it's just the way the building rules are set down, and the way the "notum veins" you can build on aren't simply a consistent polygon. The base has edges, it has spots that towers can't be built on, if nothing else, it has the borders of the land control area and ends there. But basically, every base has seams if you look for them.

If you attack at those seams, you'll probably only be in one turret's firing area, and possibly one guardian's area of effect.

And any base is a lot tougher when there are defenders than when there aren't. A QL 100 base should be able to hold off level 138 adventurers - or level 167 doctors - when there are people defending it who can fight back. The towers aren't just there to look pretty

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jynne
Kuroshio, your last reply to my post merely proved beyond doubt you aren't really reading what I write. You're just a troll looking for something to flame and arguing for argumentation's sake. Or you're blinded by rose-lensed fanboi goggles. I don't really care which.

Jynne, if you call that flaming then you really are my 10 year old cousin 'Princess Simone'. She's about that sensitive when called to the carpet. And while that was a flame, it's a match compared to the flamethrower next to my desk and pet dragon out in the yard

Originally posted by Jynne

If you consider someone who's level 125 to be a lowbie in need of protection, you need your head examined. It's well over half the levels in the game, and it's fully 2/3 of the non-title-capped levels in the game. You aren't as powerful as a level 150 character, but you aren't an insect either, and if you really are still a newbie at level 125, you deserve the stomping you'll get at a large battle.

I don't consider someone level 125 to be an insect compared to a level 160ish player. They're gonna die but not too spectacularly. I do consider a level 125 a fart in a tornado compared to a level 200 who you keep forgetting (or ignoring) would be able to take advantage of lowering the PvP range. And there are some level 200s find nothing more pleasing that making other people's lives miserable. Simply because they're bored.

Originally posted by Jynne
So Funcom hacked in a quick fix without testing it, again. It's not the testers' fault, or the test server environment's fault. How can we expect anyone to adequately test any system in only one day? No, it's the fault of the genius who decided to install it two weeks early.

Again, what was there to test? Your arguement isn't with the functionality of the fix. It's with the logic of the fix. And the test server environment is poorly suited, imo, to test the logic too much. Why?

1. It lacks the sheer number of players that Live does
2. The testers lack the hardcore, vicious mentality shown by players on Live (ask on global for some credits and chances are a tester, not an ARK or a GM, will give you a couple million).
3. The testers sometimes lack the experience of the Live players (while some have earned their levels there and some are high level players from live, some are also boosted players who don't have the experience of people that clawed up to their level).
4. The testers lack PvP experience. How many 20 vs 20 battles do you think have taken place on Test without Funcom or the ARKs there rounding them up for that specific task?

Originally posted by Jynne
Again, if you read, I said it might be as simple as dropping the unrestricted PvP cap. Most people I've talked to agree that it's too high in the context of QL 150 bases and should be lowered; many of them aren't over level 150, either. Level 125-149 players can have a great impact on level 180+ players in a battle. They aren't a negligible threat. They don't need someone holding their hand.

But in the end this system needed to undergo testing and it didn't. It doesn't matter how much time it takes, functions need to work right before they go in to production. Now we're stuck with a broken system on Live. It doesn't really protect newbies from high level interference (see my above point about RRFE and HOTs, that you conveniently ignored before), it just gives them a "shut-up-already" sucker-pop by papering over the problem. It's a bandaid being put where a tourniquet is needed to be effective.

I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge the fact that HoTs and other buffs are bad. But heals are more direct than other nanoprograms in the damage they do. There is a difference between a HoT ticking away and a Doc using heals. The HoT can be overcome by adding more damage. Not much consolation but it's possible. However the only way to overcome someone that is completely repairing any damage you have done, even if you've gotten the person down to 1 hp, is to kill that person during the Doc's recharge/attack. It shouldn't it be required that an entire org attempt to alpha 1 person to death because that person has a doctor throwing heals at them like pennies.

Originally posted by Jynne
And the other ways in which it is broken hurts everyone in guilds where all the members aren't in pvp range of each other. Which is, frankly speaking, pretty much everyone who isn't in a 150+ only guild. If that's the logic behind the fix that you're talking about, then hell yes I have a problem with it.

Now try reading this entire post before you click 'quote' and start flaming it. Oh wait, too late. Maybe I should have put this sentence at the top.

Having to flesh out your org's ranks to fill the areas where it's weak wasn't much of an issue before the Notum Wars. Now it's a bigger issue. To me it was a no-brainer before the Notum Wars was even mentioned. It does a level 30 player no good to be in the org if he has nobody he can team with at his level.

[Lokgen]

Jynne, Kuro and Hypos you've made your point. The only thing left to do is nitpick out of context comments.

Lokgen RK2

Begin nitpicking

20 dollars buys: One half a bag of California green bud or half a tank of petrol or a couple buckets of balls at the driving range or a one (1) grip for my 91 Husky 350 WXE

End nitpicking

[_______________Hypos]

Just in case anyone's actually interested in a discussion on this and not just flaming, I will once again post this link: Proposed design: If you can't be attacked, you can't assist with buffs and healing. 20 pages of discussion there that we'd all be better off not having to duplicate here.

If you're interested in alternatives, several were posted in that thread. My favorites were the towers that could prevent char abilities (such as high QL heals) and the level scaling.

[Lokgen]

Yup, read every post in both threads

Lokgen

[Nenous]

Too many posts for me to read all of them, but from what I have read...

Healing chains are a lot better than what it used to be. There now needs to be an extra doc specifically outside of PvP range.
It makes it that much more difficult to assist a low level PvP base with high level players.

As for the whole level thing, 162s being more useful than higher level doctors. If you're correct about the 162s being able to heal a wider range of players, then you're also stating that 162s are attackable by a wider range of players. Pretty much every single player over 125 can put a bullet in your ass while you're trying to heal other people. One bonus of leveling up is to narrow the range of people that can kill you. That's also a bonus of being 149 or lower, you're cutting away the top of the food chain from killing you.

It plays both ways, it's not a total nerf. If you want to heal the masses, prepare to be killed by the masses. This is what started the thing in the first place. People were healing PvP ranges that could not return fire.

Nenous

[Razzitazz]

Too bad.

A high end doc healing a group of low level players while they take down a base = bad.

A low end doc healing a high level player while they are immune to dying = bad.

And there is tons of stuff such as temp HP/HOT/HP buff/DOT/init debuff that I will be able to cast, that I can't cast now.

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Nen Nen

It plays both ways, it's not a total nerf. If you want to heal the masses, prepare to be killed by the masses.

Exactly the point of this thread. Read the first post, it's advice to docs who haven't yet made the mistake of levelling past 150 to just stay there. We're not asking for immunity, but it would be nice if chars could advance in level without gimping their ability to help their friends.

posted by Piercingevil

A high end doc healing a group of low level players while they take down a base = bad.

Piercingevil, try to get a clue about the threads you post in. Jynne posted this early on and I've already quoted it a couple times:

posted by Jynne

At level 167 I don't want to be healing level 75s at a QL 50 tower battle. That's cheesey, yes. It's boring.

We're not saying the old system was fine. We're saying the new one is messed up.

posted by Piercingevil

And there is tons of stuff such as temp HP/HOT/HP buff/DOT/init debuff that I will be able to cast, that I can't cast now.

Not usre what you're saying here. Might have been poorly worded. If you're saying you can't cast buffs on lowbies in LC areas, that's true. You have to step outside of the LC area to buff them and then let the lowbie walk back in. This change doesn't fix low level combat.

What this change did accomplish, however, is to make docs wonder if they should level past 150. Our heals don't get significantly better after that, but the number of people we can help drops. I want to help my guild. Right now, it looks like levelling acts against that for a doc.