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Thread: Reset all the land control areas

  1. #81
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but time of placement of a tower controls vulnerability times of that tower, correct?

    If so, if you placed it at a time such that your going to be busy when its open, it's your own damn fault.

    And if you take the land over at an inconvenient placement time (i.e. that was when it was open, so you took it), then just place some placeholder stuff, come back later, terminate the towers, place new ones and be prepared to wait those initial few hours to defend.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  2. #82
    Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but time of placement of a tower controls vulnerability times of that tower, correct?

    If so, if you placed it at a time such that your going to be busy when its open, it's your own damn fault.

    And if you take the land over at an inconvenient placement time (i.e. that was when it was open, so you took it), then just place some placeholder stuff, come back later, terminate the towers, place new ones and be prepared to wait those initial few hours to defend.
    Granted, that covers some of the vulnerability, but are you disagreeing or agreeing with my statement that placing primary strategic importance on the fact that the defender will likely be offline during the attack is dishonorable gameplay? It sounds like you are trying to justify such "tactics" by saying that its the defender's fault for not planning their gas allocation properly and thus not dishonorable. If that is what you are saying, I disagree.

    I don't think it is possible to plan gas that is 100% between say 2AM Monday morning and 7PM Monday evening and the same for every day of the week. Therefore, no matter how well planned gas is, there will still be opportunities for dishonorable players to plan an attack to occur purposefully at a time you arent on.

    Again I am not saying that people shouldn't take advantage of every possible strategic maneuver in planning attacks, just that the line between dishonorable and honorable play is drawn between those who attack towers for the very reason that they know the owners aren't logged on and playing the game and those who attack towers according to ANY other strategic plan.

  3. #83
    It's a 24 hour cycle, right? And therefore would be the same every day of the week.

    Except I'm thinking it may be a 25 hour cycle time... which is a bad mechanic, which should be changed. I see no problem with allowing defenders to have a convenient window that stays the same.

    And no, I don't have a problem with attacking when defenders are offline. Of course its dishonourable - but I firmly believe that in simulated warfare, dishonour is to be expected. If the game allows me to do something that gives me an advantage, then I'm going to do it. If the operator of the game truly believes that its wrong, they can change the rules.

    If you want to play honorably, fine, but don't hold me to the same standard. I won't meet it... but I'll have your tower.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  4. #84
    Originally posted by Sanskrit

    You can cheat in ANY game without breaking the written rules.

    Who are you to determine that the "nature" of the NW is that if you can't keep a perpetual link to your computer that you can't play the game effectively and that you should stick to the arena?
    I'm not determining anything. The game itself is. Facts:
    1. Anarchy Online is a Persistant World game, meaning the game continues regardless of whether or not you as a player are logged in.
    2. Anarchy Online is a Massively Multiplayer Online Game, meaning there are large number of players that span several timezones and lifestyles playing the game.


    These 2 facts coupled together means that something will always be happening when someone is not able to login because of Life. So long as PvP was restrained to the individual's choice of participating, the individual retained control over when he was vulnerable to attack. The individual could 'schedule' when he was attacked by the simple fact that he could only be attacked while online...Until the Notum Wars.

    Notum Wars adds another fact into the mix:
    1. Org Controllers and their accessories once placed are Persistant Objects until destroyed, meaning they exist in the game regardless of whether or not the player that set them up is logged in.


    These 3 facts now define the nature of the game. That the game will continue regardless of when a player is logged in. That it is impossible for everyone to be logged in at the same time because their timezones and lifestyles demand their schedule will conflict with another person's. That org Controllers and Accessories, being Persistant Objects, will be vulnerable to attacks by someone who is on a different schedule than their owners. That defined the nature of the game.

    If I plan my attack at a time when I know the majority of the defenders will not be online, am I cheating? No. I am not going to receive a visit from a Funcom GM bearing the message:
    Kuroshio, we have analyzed your pattern of attack against other organizations' assets and found that you are attacking when players are not online to defend those assets. This is considered an Exploit and you are summarily warned for your actions
    If I plan my attack at a time when I know the majority of the defenders will not be online, am I playing honorably? No I am not, by your standards of Honor. Ask me if I care about your standards of Honor. I may be an honorless dog to you, but I am no cheater nor exploiter. And you can read my signature to see what I think of that (though I'm quite sure that this is not what Bruce Lee intended when he wrote those words).

    Originally posted by Sanskrit
    Here's a prediction you can feel free to remind me I was wrong on if I am in 6-8 months; either 1) NW/Land Control/ what have you will evolve to accommodate my philosophy of gameplay very rapidly or 2) you will be very lonely in your attempts to log onto the server of a bankrupt gaming company.
    Here's another prediction that's just as valid as yours because both are based on nothing more than vapor:

    Organizations begin recruiting members across more timezones so their assets don't go unprotected because the majority of their members play in the same timezone. The AO community moves towards a more global community, instead of seeing things as they are now. Such as primarily <insert country/timezone> organizations (there are more than a few).

    Originally posted by Sanskrit

    Tell me once too often, FC, that dishonorable playstyles will allow dishonorable players to take things from me in the game EVEN while I am not playing it. This is not the kind of enjoyment I am PAYING for.

    Your vision of NW will alienate many of AO's most stable customers, the ones with jobs who don't have credit card refusal problems.

    After all these posts, you still will not acknowledge that my position is not "Attacking someone who is offline is cheating" but "Attacking someone for the very reason that they are offline is cheating." I am beginning to think you can't tell the difference which based on your posts, wouldn't surprise me that much.
    Jynne called it right, at least partially, when she used the word "morality". It's an issue of morals. And something I was taught about ethics and morality a long time ago, but you evidently were not:

    Ethics and Morals vary depending on user

    You feel strongly enough about a game to accuse people of cheating if the take advantage of inadequate defenses because people are offline. Rather funny too since you also protest so strongly it is a game. I feel indifferently enough not to give a Hoot Owl's Left Feather if you're at work, sleeping, at your keyboard or AFK in the john. Why? Because it is a game and I see no reason to care whether or not you view my actions in a game as honorable. So long as they are within the rules of the game and defined by the nature of the game, I suggest you start expanding your org's recruitment. Or I suggest you surrender whatever lands you may control now and settle for attacking others as your honor permits.

    My honor permits me to decimate you whenever and where ever you give me the advantage. But the really fun thing I have not mentioned: if you do the same to me, I will not care. Because I knew from the moment land control was announced that investing in controllers should not be taken lightly by any organization. And because it is only a game
    Last edited by Kuroshio; Dec 18th, 2002 at 01:57:58.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  5. #85
    Nope, I checked, its a 24 hour cycle total, so the window times do not shift.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  6. #86
    Oh, yeah, one last thing.

    Your Monopoly analogy fails, Sanskrit

    In Monopoly, the action you described (taking money while the other person is absent from the table) is *outside* the rules of the game.

    By definition, anything I'm capable of doing in Anarchy is either a bug/exploit or within the rules of the game.

    Since you can't reasonably call attacking an org which is offline a bug, nor can you call it an exploit, that means its within the rules.

    You can dislike the rules, but they remain the rules nonetheless.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  7. #87
    Originally posted by Sanskrit
    Nice attempt to divert the issue to whether you are an exploiter or not. A cheater? It depends on the applicable definition of cheating. I'll assert that if you are planning tower attacks on purpose to coincide with times when the least amount of defenders are playing the game, then yes, under many definitions you are a cheater. A dishonorable unsportsmanlike game player for doing such things?
    Err, what?? I'm supposed to make sure the majority of people in the guild I'm about to attack are online before I begin, just so the fight is more "fair" and so I won't be considered a cheater?

    It only makes sense to attack during a guild's downtime, for a number of reasons, many because of certain aspects of the game mechanics we all know and despise, but have to live with.

    What if my guild is primarily located in the USA and a guild we need to attack is European? The "prime time" for our guild members to be online (say, late evening/night) would be when most Euros are asleep. How can you possibly call that cheating? Shouldn't that guild not leave their base unguarded? I don't see military bases unguarded at any time of the day. They plan for bad things to happen.

    Think before you rudely accuse people of foulplay, please.

  8. #88
    Kill the offline ppl..... err... i ment kill the offline towers... err.. nm...just kll the online towers owned by the ppl that are offline...!

  9. #89
    Originally posted by Sheffy


    Err, what?? I'm supposed to make sure the majority of people in the guild I'm about to attack are online before I begin, just so the fight is more "fair" and so I won't be considered a cheater?
    For God sakes, have you read anything I have posted? I think you have and just don't want to come to grips with it. FOR THE LAST TIME:

    If you plan an attack, and place PRIMARY STRATEGIC IMPORTANCE ON THE FACT THAT YOUR OPPONENT IS OFFLINE, you are playing dishonorably, and maybe even cheating.

    This is my position. IT IS SIMPLE. It is not "Make sure your opponent can put up a defense before attacking."

    For example, it is Saturday afternoon, your guild is looking for some group activity. You decide to attack a base, pick a target and attack. Unbeknownst to you, every member of the org you are attacking is in bed asleep or at work at that moment. NO PROBLEM, not even a hint of unsportsmanlike or unfair play. Good Luck and Godspeed in your attack.

    On the other hand. It is December 18; you begin to organize a tower attack to take place on CHRISTMAS DAY at 12PM GMT. You do this because you know that there will be few if any people on in GB and thereabouts and NO ONE at all on in the U.S. This, IMO is at best dishonorable play, and at worst cheating.

    If my opponent in NW thought this was legitimate play, he would soon not have me as an opponent, and I'll bet I'm not the only one who feels this way. I am not interested in playing a game against an opponent who schemes to beat me when I am NOT EVEN PLAYING THE GAME.

    If your response is that to participate in NW is a tacit acceptance that you are in fact playing AO all the time, I say BS, and if it is not changed will take my money elsewhere.

    I believe that FC will make changes to this very soon and if they don't I won't be participating in NW (except as a mercenary) and may not play AO any more.


    Originally posted by Sheffy

    It only makes sense to attack during a guild's downtime, for a number of reasons, many because of certain aspects of the game mechanics we all know and despise, but have to live with.
    What? What are you talking about? If towers are too tough, get that changed, don't resort to scheming to play a one person game. Lag? fix it, or wait for it to be fixed, don't disingenously rely on game mechanics or bugs to justify dirty play.

    Originally posted by Sheffy


    Think before you rudely accuse people of foulplay, please.
    Please attempt to read and understand what I am asserting; it is simple. And stop distorting my position into something you can comfortably assert is wrong. I am becoming convinced that you KNOW the type of tactics I am describing are wrong and just don't want to deal with it.

  10. #90
    Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin

    If you want to play honorably, fine, but don't hold me to the same standard. I won't meet it... but I'll have your tower.
    Well, that statement at least crystallizes the issue. Thanks for your honesty.

    Do you play any game you play like this? Would you sit across a table face to face from me and defend such tactics? I suspect not, and if so, you would not have me as an opponent for long. Is the anonymity of the internet all it takes to strip notions of fair play and honor from people? Pretty scary.

    LOL you will have my tower? You will have a mesh stored on a server. It takes two to tango.

  11. #91

    Mr. Sanskrit

    First, I'd like to emphasize that nowhere in my post did I mention my org or try to act as a representative of my org. YOU chose to question my guild...not me. With that being said, if you were truly the intelligent "moral-superior" you like to portray yourself as, the least you could do is have the common courtesy not to demonstrate childish attempts to implicate others based on one persons opinion.

    Secondly, regarding your response to Jynne. I like they way you took the initiative to point your chubby little Napoleon finger at my in-game character and not my forum avatar. I'm not sure if that would be considered a breach of forum etiquette, but I for one take such things seriously.

    Thirdly, you impress absolutely no one but yourself. I find it quite humorous when people, like you, overcompensate for a lack of self-esteem by forming a superiority complex. I hate to break it to you dude, but you are not special. You are not significant. You should not be revered. Thus far, you should not even be respected. (It's earned, not given.)

    Regarding the current topic. If you haven't figured out by now that this IS a war game, perhaps you need to cancel your account, plop your Zanex-filled ass on the couch, and watch Spongebob Squarepants cartoons. It will probably fulfill the type of mental challenge and moral ruffage you require. "All is fair in love, war, and AO". Also, Sun Tzu would decimate your base while you are at work.

    By the way, referring to my first paragraph, you have relieved all doubt.
    At Midnight, All the Agents...
    Veneman
    Fullnelson
    Halfnelson

    Agents- lilttle slightly insane people who run around and kill you before you know what is going on... and if they dont kill you fast... well, cannon fodder (altho they are good for scouting) -eternalfiend

    The Sock-Hat, it adds 1 to my tempo.

  12. #92
    Originally posted by Sanskrit


    Well, that statement at least crystallizes the issue. Thanks for your honesty.

    Do you play any game you play like this? Would you sit across a table face to face from me and defend such tactics? I suspect not, and if so, you would not have me as an opponent for long. Is the anonymity of the internet all it takes to strip notions of fair play and honor from people? Pretty scary.
    Yippee! If you walk away, it just makes taking the land ->that<- much easier.
    Originally posted by Sanskrit

    LOL you will have my tower? You will have a mesh stored on a server. It takes two to tango.
    Dude, you're missing the point. To use your dance phrase, you're insisting on dancing a tango and will leave in disgust because we're moshing. However we'll still be having fun moshing while you're playing wallflower looking for partners to tango.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  13. #93
    Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
    Oh, yeah, one last thing.

    Your Monopoly analogy fails, Sanskrit

    In Monopoly, the action you described (taking money while the other person is absent from the table) is *outside* the rules of the game.

    By definition, anything I'm capable of doing in Anarchy is either a bug/exploit or within the rules of the game.
    Ahhh it is starting to become clear... where is the list of exploits? Where is the list of bugs? Where is the "rulebook" for AO? We can refer to those things to decide what is fair and unfair/legal and illegal. LOL.

    Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin

    Since you can't reasonably call attacking an org which is offline a bug, nor can you call it an exploit, that means its within the rules.

    You can dislike the rules, but they remain the rules nonetheless.
    And those rules are?

    A: The rules in AO are whatever FC says they are at any given time, and include hidden rules. FC could ban you for having a high post count here. There is no rulebook in AO, just secret knowledge and word of mouth. If there were extensive documentation, I might give more credence to your point, but as there is none, you are on shaky ground.


    My Monopoly rules say nothing about hiding money while someone is out of the room. So if I am caught doing it, who's to say it's illegal? It just is and we accept that. Nice try, the analogy is apt. Same reasoning applies here.

    Here's another couple of tactics, what do you think?

    1) You are an advy. Your tower is attacked and you are outnumbered. you change everyone on your side in the area into a pit lizard. The resulting lag prevents the tower attack from succeeding. Honorable or dishonorable? Cheat or not?

    2) You form an org of members from other orgs for the specific purpose of attacking towers. This meta-org does not own a base and thus attacks with no defensive penalties other than the PvP flag, which is not really a big deal. Honorable or dishonorable? Cheat or not?

    3) You have a controller on land that another org wants. At a ceremony, the org pays you 100 milion credits as you destroy your tower; before the org can place its tower, you replace a new tower so your org now has the tower and the 100 million. Honorable or Dishonorable? Cheat or not?

    I believe all three of these are dishonorable and 1 and 2 are in addition, cheating. Just because you CAN do something in a game doesn't make it ok.

  14. #94
    Originally posted by Sanskrit

    ...
    1) You are an advy. Your tower is attacked and you are outnumbered. you change everyone on your side in the area into a pit lizard. The resulting lag prevents the tower attack from succeeding. Honorable or dishonorable? Cheat or not?
    Exploit. Purposely creating lag to gain an advantage over another player is against the rules. Lag is not accounted for by any ingame mechanics and similiar situations (user generated lag) have been classified exploits previously. Exploits supercede honor/dishonor so the discussion on that point is moot.

    Originally posted by Sanskrit

    2) You form an org of members from other orgs for the specific purpose of attacking towers. This meta-org does not own a base and thus attacks with no defensive penalties other than the PvP flag, which is not really a big deal. Honorable or dishonorable? Cheat or not?
    Neither Dishonorable nor Cheat. Just plain warfare. Denying others land, and the benefits that go with it, is a valid tactic. There is no requirement I'm aware of that say I have to show you a soft underbelly to strike at.

    Originally posted by Sanskrit

    3) You have a controller on land that another org wants. At a ceremony, the org pays you 100 milion credits as you destroy your tower; before the org can place its tower, you replace a new tower so your org now has the tower and the 100 million. Honorable or Dishonorable? Cheat or not?
    Dishonorable? Depends on the person. Cheat? No. Funcom has never interceded between parties claiming to have been scammed to my knowledge. They have only gotten involved when player accounts have been hacked, as that is outside game mechanics. They cannot guarantee the people you choose to deal with are honorable nor could they attempt to enforce honorable acts.

    Originally posted by Sanskrit
    I believe all three of these are dishonorable and 1 and 2 are in addition, cheating. Just because you CAN do something in a game doesn't make it ok.
    The point you're missing is your belief structure does not command anyone's hand here. You used the terms "Cheat" and "Exploit" which Funcom has stated are situations where they will intercede. But you believing that an action does not live up to your honor code does not make others who do not follow your honor code guilty of acts punishable by FC Support Staff. Honor is subjective and therefore cannot be enforced equally nor fairly.
    Last edited by Kuroshio; Dec 18th, 2002 at 18:24:48.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  15. #95
    Originally posted by Halfnelson
    First, I'd like to emphasize that nowhere in my post did I mention my org or try to act as a representative of my org. YOU chose to question my guild...not me.
    I had other reasons for bringing up orgs. Sorry for any confusion.

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    With that being said, if you were truly the intelligent "moral-superior" you like to portray yourself as, the least you could do is have the common courtesy not to demonstrate childish attempts to implicate others based on one persons opinion.
    You are crossing the "personal attack" line, not me. In this paragraph you are calling me conceited and childish. All I ever did was characterize your response to my post as being in the "Kuroshio" camp of taking advantage when you can, "Phred Tzu." Do you disagree? I have as much right as anyone else to have an opinion about the ethical content of actions in the game, and to debate it here. And yes, I still maintain that planning a tower raid for the express reason that the opponent will not be playing the game when you attack is dishonorable play.


    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    Secondly, regarding your response to Jynne. I like they way you took the initiative to point your chubby little Napoleon finger at my in-game character and not my forum avatar. I'm not sure if that would be considered a breach of forum etiquette, but I for one take such things seriously.
    Lighten up, "chubby little Napoleon finger?" LOL. Fine that's kind of funny I guess. Perhaps I was trying to send you a subtle clue. You really think it's a breach of forum etiquette for me to point my chubby Napoleon finger at a name you place IN YOUR SIG?

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    Thirdly, you impress absolutely no one but yourself. I find it quite humorous when people, like you, overcompensate for a lack of self-esteem by forming a superiority complex. I hate to break it to you dude, but you are not special. You are not significant. You should not be revered. Thus far, you should not even be respected. (It's earned, not given.)
    Wow, lots of personal insults here. Perhaps you could help me point my "chubby little Napoleon finger" at evidence of a superiority complex. I post here on the forums at work to blow off steam. It is my right to do so and my opinions are just as valid as yours. If you confuse fierceness or vehemence in argument with a "superiority complex" that's your problem. I'm fine in the self-esteem department, I assure you. I neither ask for nor want your respect, nor could I care less.

    But wait... Yes! now I see your point, what I crave most in life is to be "revered" for my posts here in this forum about a COMPUTER GAME. If people revere me for this I will have surely made a mark in world history... "Sanskrit, revered by all for his posts to the computer game forums."

    Guess what position my "chubby little Napoleon finger" is in now?

    Originally posted by Halfnelson
    perhaps you need to cancel your account, plop your Zanex-filled ass on the couch, and watch Spongebob Squarepants cartoons. It will probably fulfill the type of mental challenge and moral ruffage you require. "All is fair in love, war, and AO". Also, Sun Tzu would decimate your base while you are at work.
    An old girlfriend had a Xanax prescription, tried some for kicks and it put me to sleep.

    Don't own a television, but love cartoons, understand the Spongebob cartoon is good, but not as good as Ren & Stimpy.

    I get lots of moral "ruffage" working on Wall Street, but things have been very slow this year (which explains my high post count and /played hours)

    I appreciate all the hard work you must have put into this "thoughtful reply." Maybe you should kick back and squeeze on the stressball a little, I can hear your teeth grinding through my monitor speaker.

  16. #96

    Thumbs down

    Originally posted by Sanskrit
    I had other reasons for bringing up orgs. Sorry for any confusion.

    Perhaps I was trying to send you a subtle clue. You really think it's a breach of forum etiquette for me to point my chubby Napoleon finger at a name you place IN YOUR SIG?
    Yes, I got your clue and don't appreciate it. And, yes, I know who you are.

    But wait... Yes! now I see your point, what I crave most in life is to be "revered" for my posts here in this forum about a COMPUTER GAME. If people revere me for this I will have surely made a mark in world history... "Sanskrit, revered by all for his posts to the computer game forums."
    Exactly right. Your whole argument is DEAD. 99.9% of the playerbase does not agree with you. The other thread on this topic, that you created, is DEAD. So, obviously you are here to stroke your ego and throw around your Holier-than-thou attitude. Which is carried over in most of your posts.

    Guess what position my "chubby little Napoleon finger" is in now?
    I don't want to know. But, I'm sure you have pics posted on a website somewhere.

    Look, in the end, you have all the right in the world to post what you like in these forums. You already know this. But, when you point your finger at me directly and bring my guild into question...you are going to get a rant in return. I've been in my guild long enough to know that this kind of behavior is unwarrented and not shared among org members.

    So, if you want to continue with your little debate game...be my guest. But, you DO NOT bring my guild into question...new guy.
    At Midnight, All the Agents...
    Veneman
    Fullnelson
    Halfnelson

    Agents- lilttle slightly insane people who run around and kill you before you know what is going on... and if they dont kill you fast... well, cannon fodder (altho they are good for scouting) -eternalfiend

    The Sock-Hat, it adds 1 to my tempo.

  17. #97
    Moralizing over computer games is silly.

    Comparing a computer game to unrestricted warfare is also silly.

    To be non-silly, there following two mechanics probably should be altered/added in the game rules:

    #1 - Scale the amount of time a base is vulnerable for to the QL of the controller that's built there. Lower QL controllers are 25% for less time. Guilds who wish to have shorter windows of vulnerability, can do so by trading off the benefits of higher QL org advantages.

    Result of this being changed? If your base is vulnerable for longer than you want, it's your own fault - build a smaller controller.

    #2 - Introduce some way of 'resetting' a controller's suppression gas cycle 'start-time' after it's been built. This will allow guilds to tweak their controller onto the right gas cycle for them to defend once they've built a new base on the ashes of a recently conquered one. This 'gas cycle reset' could (should?) be one-time-only to prevent it from being exploited.

    Result of this being added? If your base is hit at a time when most of your guild is off-line, it's your own fault - set the timer right.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
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    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  18. #98
    Originally posted by Kuroshio
    [B]
    Exploit. Purposely creating lag to gain an advantage over another player is against the rules. Lag is not accounted for by any ingame mechanics and similiar situations (user generated lag) have been classified exploits previously. Exploits supercede honor/dishonor so the discussion on that point is moot.
    Agree with you. It is an exploit.

    However, you will never be able to prove it to the point of getting FC to take action. It is arguably a legitimate nano with legitimate uses and only a fool would admit they used it to create lag. Hey, it's a great HP/damage buff. So it will not be made illegal. It is an exploit that the victim can do nothing about. So what do you call an exploit that FC will not enforce against? I call it cheating.

    Originally posted by Kuroshio
    [B]
    Neither Dishonorable nor Cheat. Just plain warfare. Denying others land, and the benefits that go with it, is a valid tactic. There is no requirement I'm aware of that say I have to show you a soft underbelly to strike at.
    So to manipulate org affiliations to avoid certain consequences of tower attacks doesn't seem exploitative to you? It sure does to me. Again it could never be proven or dealt with by FC. Only a fool would admit to it. Is it cheating? YES. It would be cheating to create bogus orgs to avoid the tower aggression rules in NW. Both examples 1 and 2 are exploits that are unenforceable against, in essence, cheats.

    Your definition of "cheating" and mine are totally different. IMO, cheating is perfiorming an action in a game that you know is against the rules, be they the rulebook rules or the common sense rules most of us abide by in playing games, or counter to a spirit of fair play.

    Your definition (and Dharin's I'd imagine) are strict rulebook definitions; e.g. "If an action isn't forbidden somewhere in written rules, doing that action isn't cheating."

    The biggest problem I have with positions like yours and Dharin's is WHERE IS THAT BIG RULE BOOK with all the answers. Point me to that really comprehensive source of AO "rules." If we have no well thought out and comprehensive rule sets to rely on, we have to go with our gut to some extent.

    Originally posted by Kuroshio

    The point you're missing is your belief structure does not command anyone's hand here.
    I never said that it did; what it does command is my estimation of the chracter of the people I play games with, or choose to avoid playing games with. In my view, if you would attack my tower for the express reason that I was not online, then you are not likely a worthy or fun gaming opponent. You can agree with me or not, I don't care, but the "discussion" of the issue here has strengthened my opinion.

    The defensiveness that people show over this issue leads me to believe that we all know that this is wrong, yet are looking for ways to "forget" that it is and take advantage of any situation in the game to get advantage. That must be why so very few people have honestly attempted to discuss the issue without perpetual distortion of my position into a position you can easily deal with (You and Sheffy) or personal insults/attacks (Halfnelson)

    Interested to hear what your response to the "Christmas Day" example I posted to Sheffy is. You have been quiet on that one so far.

    Originally posted by Kuroshio

    Honor is subjective and therefore cannot be enforced equally nor fairly.
    I agree with you, and am not seeking any kind of enforcement of my view (although I imagine FC will be making some drastic changes to the NW system with respect to gas, etc). Honor, though is a vote with your feet kind of proposition. If the people you are playing a game fit within your definition of honor, you are in the right game. If not, you move on to another game.
    Last edited by Jutlina; Dec 18th, 2002 at 22:00:40.

  19. #99
    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    Yes, I got your clue and don't appreciate it. And, yes, I know who you are.
    And so you launch into a volley of over the top comments and personal attacks? Nice. You really do need some more time with that stress ball. Your teeth-grinding is getting deafening.

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    Exactly right. Your whole argument is DEAD. 99.9% of the playerbase does not agree with you. The other thread on this topic, that you created, is DEAD.
    I created the other thread to stop the highjacking of this one. This thread has 97 replies and 1507 views. The thread I created has 25 posts and 382 views in about 24 hours. You are wrong.

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    So, obviously you are here to stroke your ego and throw around your Holier-than-thou attitude. Which is carried over in most of your posts.
    I am here 1) because things are very slow at work; a year ago there is no way I would be wasting time like this 2) because IMO (and despite all your ranting to the contrary) this is an important issue in the game. Who are you to try to attribute motives to why I post here?

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    But, when you point your finger at me directly and bring my guild into question...you are going to get a rant in return. I've been in my guild long enough to know that this kind of behavior is unwarrented and not shared among org members.
    I haven't pointed my chubby Napoleon finger at you directly or at "your" guild.

    BTW, It ain't me who is taking himself too seriously.

    Nothing I have said brings "your" org into question and if you want to use that as an excuse for your very inept flaming go right ahead. I don't care.

    Originally posted by Halfnelson

    So, if you want to continue with your little debate game...be my guest. But, you DO NOT bring my guild into question...new guy.
    "Your guild" will be asked to weigh in on this thread and I will abide by what they say.

  20. #100
    Originally posted by Sanskrit
    "Your guild" will be asked to weigh in on this thread and I will abide by what they say.
    I know, I've already got the ball rolling.
    At Midnight, All the Agents...
    Veneman
    Fullnelson
    Halfnelson

    Agents- lilttle slightly insane people who run around and kill you before you know what is going on... and if they dont kill you fast... well, cannon fodder (altho they are good for scouting) -eternalfiend

    The Sock-Hat, it adds 1 to my tempo.

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