Reset all the land control areas

[Snuble]

FFS children... Can we start a discussion please? Perhaps we can work out some nice little ideas, and post them in a new tread when we agree on some stuff that would be nice And then bump it to death

Now, its a shame that the treads that will get answer is headed *WTF Cz Get a griP*. Then he is in there explaining that this is not the way to do it, and a day later there is some other FC dude (or dudette) in there and gives nice answers

I'm sure its a nice idea to discuss who is best a flaming, Jynne or Kuroshio, but constructive?

[Jynne]

Yes Kuro (I can call you Kuro right? We're old friends by now ) - we could go around and around forever.

But I will remain on the position that there are complaints - and indeed whines and rants - that are valid, and that shouldn't be the players' responsibility to 'deal with it' - and that while Sun Tzu was very wise about warfare, he didn't know jack about game design.

My hope is that the Devs read different books than you do, and that they stop wanting AO to be Everquest with guns.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jynne
Yes Kuro (I can call you Kuro right? We're old friends by now ) - we could go around and around forever.

But I will remain on the position that there are complaints - and indeed whines and rants - that are valid, and that shouldn't be the players' responsibility to 'deal with it' - and that while Sun Tzu was very wise about warfare, he didn't know jack about game design.

My hope is that the Devs read different books than you do, and that they stop wanting AO to be Everquest with guns.

Erm...I think they prolly did read the same books as me. Sun Tzu is a mob in the game after all

But I also read Clancy, King, Rice, Bruce Lee (yes, he authored a book), Grisham, Piers Anthony, and Marvel...So there's no worry that I might not be well rounded

[Jynne]

Curses! Foiled again!

Come, Mutley, we must plan our next dastardly trick to play on Snagglepus!

[p00finger]

Originally posted by GreyWind
Ya i agree!!!!! it sucks real bad that FC favours US only!!!

USA...USA...USA...USA!!!

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated!

LOL...j/k

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Snublefot
FFS children... Can we start a discussion please? Perhaps we can work out some nice little ideas, and post them in a new tread when we agree on some stuff that would be nice And then bump it to death

Now, its a shame that the treads that will get answer is headed *WTF Cz Get a griP*. Then he is in there explaining that this is not the way to do it, and a day later there is some other FC dude (or dudette) in there and gives nice answers

I'm sure its a nice idea to discuss who is best a flaming, Jynne or Kuroshio, but constructive?

Snublefot, this thread was prolly lost after the 5th reply. I'd honestly recommend breaking your post about maintanence out into a different thread. Maybe all the good ideas will be in the first 20 posts before someone gets around to flaming you...

Yes, I'm bitter about the forum community. Who wouldn't be when one of the biggest posters is a self-proclaimed troll and formed an army of them

[Canto]

Nice attempt to divert the issue to whether you are an exploiter or not. A cheater? It depends on the applicable definition of cheating. I'll assert that if you are planning tower attacks on purpose to coincide with times when the least amount of defenders are playing the game, then yes, under many definitions you are a cheater. A dishonorable unsportsmanlike game player for doing such things? Most definitely. an exploiter? Who knows, I don't care.

Originally posted by Kuroshio


First you claim you're not saying that people have to attack during certain hours. Then you call me a cheater if I attack you when you're not online, so in order to avoid being a cheater I would have to attack you during certain hours...

Stop the ride...I'm getting dizzy following this logic

You couldn't "follow" logic if it was your nose. I understand the dizziness btw, it results from being caught and called out in an untenable position.

To reiterate:

In an ongoing game, a MMORPG for instance, if you PURPOSEFULLY SCHEDULE and execute an ingame action, materially detrimental to another player, that could normally be defended against, during a time when you know (or are reasonably certain) that the other player will not be online playing the game, and thus unable to defend themself against your action, then you are cheating by some definitions, and, regardless of whether the action you took was "legal" in the game, a dishonorable, unsportsmanlike player by ANY definition.

Now as to your ill-conceived reference to Sun Tzu, someone who breaks in your house and destroys your computer or better yet kills you in your sleep so you CAN'T log on, then signs on to AO and destroys your towers is not a cheater or a criminal but a master strategist in the "World According to Sun Tzu." Are you comfortable with this analogy? No?

The problem with applying the tenets of a military treatise to everyday situations is that the ethics of war are in fact quite different (obviously, but such obviousness seems lost on you and other glib "Sun Tzu quote tossers") from the norms most of us strive towards in everyday life, in our playing of games for instance, and are derived/grounded primarily on highly utilitarian calculations of expediency. The norms we apply in day to day living, on the other hand, are derived/grounded from our mutual desire to lead a pleasant and enjoyable life. Whereas terms like "sportsmanship" and "fair play" really have no place in the calculus of wartime actions, they are very important in every day ethics for we are, for the most part, seeking happiness in a world filled with other people.

Now I am sure you would agree that we are playing a game and not at war regardless of the state of affairs "in" the game. I am not going to show up at your house and destroy your computer. Hopefully you will do me the same courtesy. Thus, because we are playing a game, and seeking mutual enjoyment, our average day to day values, and not wartime calculations of expediency, should apply.

Thus, if we are playing a 24 hour game of 1 on 1 basketball in an arena with a mechanical scorekeeper, you leave the court for a few minutes for a bathroom break, and I shoot several baskets while you are gone, I have committed an act that, though it may be strictly legal (or more likely not dealt with by an enforceable rule), is detrimental to you in the game, and purposefully timed my act so that you cannot defend against it. When you return to the court, and see the extra points in my favor, what is your estimation of me as a player? Not very high, I'd imagine.

You don't care, you answer? Most people do care about playing games with cheaters, dishonorable players and bad sports.

Stop playing the game if you don't like it? I may or may not do that, but it doesn't change the dishonorable nature of the act.

Live with what you are, revel in it, but make no mistake, if you really follow through ingame with the attitudes you post here, you are at best a dishonorable player and at worst a cheat.

This is not a black and white distinction, and as much as it would serve your "reasoning" to be able to claim that my position is that you can't attack me when I am logged off, this is not at all what I am asserting. A child could distinguish between that position and what I am saying, so I hope it clicks for you on this repetition.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sanskrit
Nice attempt to divert the issue to whether you are an exploiter or not. A cheater? It depends on the applicable definition of cheating. I'll assert that if you are planning tower attacks on purpose to coincide with times when the least amount of defenders are playing the game, then yes, under many definitions you are a cheater. A dishonorable unsportsmanlike game player for doing such things? Most definitely. an exploiter? Who knows, I don't care.

You, sir, have no business playing any persistant world game with PvP that involves anything outside of the characters themselves.

By your definition, everyone who doesn't wait for you to get off work or wake up is a cheater. And that's horsecrap. The nature of persistant world gaming and PvP that involves assets other than the character invalidates such a broad definition. It's impossible for everyone that plays the game to be on the same schedule.

Dishonorable? Maybe. But when it comes to people I'm attacking I claim to be a practical man, not a honorable one. Perhaps this quote is more to your liking:

Van Leek: "Hell boy! You shot him in the back!"
Billy Ray Smith: "Well... his back was to me."

Lois Gosset Jr. and Anthony Edwards, El Diablo

Originally posted by Sanskrit
You couldn't "follow" logic if it was your nose. I understand the dizziness btw, it results from being caught and called out in an untenable position.

Go back to the arena, son. You're not old enough to play with the big kids. We'll make you cry every day , every time

[p00finger]

Originally posted by Sanskrit

To reiterate:

In an ongoing game, a MMORPG for instance, if you PURPOSEFULLY SCHEDULE and execute an ingame action, materially detrimental to another player, that could normally be defended against, during a time when you know (or are reasonably certain) that the other player will not be online playing the game, and thus unable to defend themself against your action, then you are cheating by some definitions, and, regardless of whether the action you took was "legal" in the game, a dishonorable, unsportsmanlike player by ANY definition.

Now that's a run-on sentence.

If I knew you, and possibly the bulk of your guild, we're gonna be offline? LOL! I'd be destroying your base without a second thought! Call me a cheater, unsportsmanlike, dishonorable? Fine. You ain't got no base, bubba!! LOL. Then I'd rub your nose in it by placing my Control Tower where your's was.

To quote Sun Tzu's little brother, Phred Tzu. "Don't be caught napping!"

Oh! Oh! How about this:

Bad guy, "You just shot an unarmed man!"

Worse guy, "Well...he should have armed himself."

Sweet dreams...

[Jynne]

"All is fair in love and war."

I'm not really sure where to stand at this point.

On the one hand - this is a PvP situation in a presistent environment with at least some caricature of simulated warfare going on. On the other hand, this is a game that people want to enjoy, and while it's fun to win some and lose some, it's not fun to win none and lose all.

And it's not fun to feel compelled to disband, leave or merge your organization to try and compensate for the game system's faults and foibles.

This is partly why I'd like to see a huge expansion of the 'personal service towers' - with low to no skill requirements. It would give all the people who will be throwing their hands up in disgust because they aren't the war-fighting type, or in a war-fighting org, a reason not to feel cheated of $20.00.

[______________Redman]

Originally posted by Warlock
- and I dont think the zones FC have reserved are going to be enough since the majority of zones seem to be active, but the majority of players didnt get/havent got the booster (based on the fact that most will have pre-ordered from DR)

Reserved??? hmmm dont think the reserved thing was ever confirmed and if you try and ask around in the mIRC chan the ppl there doesnt know if it was confirmed either,,, also when i asked Cz about it he was just like,,,,, not ANWSERING the question...


So i dont think they reserved no nothing so i think they are just going to favor the 25% of thier player base who got it before all others. and **** the rest of us....

or tell us you can always just go kill one,,,,, yea because its REAL easy to kill a lvl 250 controller ,,,,, and what would i want enything lower for??? bahhhhH!HH!H!H!HH!

im defenetly FOR a total tower wipe,,,, they can just return used money to the owners banks and then no hard feeling exept for the ppl that got a controller that they were to slow to get back to...


but just sad it would be the most fair thing and since the distribution is going now and most ppl got NW now,,,, (i think) all i know of enyway..


it would be a nice Christmas present

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Redman

Reserved??? hmmm dont think the reserved thing was ever confirmed and if you try and ask around in the mIRC chan the ppl there doesnt know if it was confirmed either,,, also when i asked Cz about it he was just like,,,,, not ANWSERING the question...


So i dont think they reserved no nothing so i think they are just going to favor the 25% of thier player base who got it before all others. and **** the rest of us....

Oh for the love of Pete...I'm pretty certain that Funcom could make Tir or Omni Entertainment a Land Control area if they want. It's not actual land out there. It's a setting in a config file for the playfield. Or have you forgotten when they've dropped the gas level to 0% in Rome Red or Omni Entertainment?

Originally posted by Redman

or tell us you can always just go kill one,,,,, yea because its REAL easy to kill a lvl 250 controller ,,,,, and what would i want enything lower for??? bahhhhH!HH!H!H!HH!

Given the general consensus that QL250 towers are overpowered and Cz's response to that consensus, what's the point behind this? I'll bet your neighbors know that QL 250 towers are overpowered (prolly through the curses they hear through their walls). I think even Verant knows that QL 250 Controllers are overpowered.

Originally posted by Redman

im defenetly FOR a total tower wipe,,,, they can just return used money to the owners banks and then no hard feeling exept for the ppl that got a controller that they were to slow to get back to...


but just sad it would be the most fair thing and since the distribution is going now and most ppl got NW now,,,, (i think) all i know of enyway..


it would be a nice Christmas present

Screw everyone else so you can have a nice Christmas present? Talk about a statement begging for a "... makes Baby Jesus cry". Cause that's exactly what would have to happen: screw a bunch of people. People that erected towers and lost them prolly wouldn't get reimbursed cause too much time has passed since it happened. People that went out and collected items that can't be bought (turret tradeskill items noteably) probably couldn't get those reimbursed either. Oh, I know. Forget the logfiles, just restore the backup tapes from Thanksgiving over top the player database. That way, everyone goes back to the way it was before the Notum Wars went live...

[Canto]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

By your definition, everyone who doesn't wait for you to get off work or wake up is a cheater. And that's horsecrap. The nature of persistant world gaming and PvP that involves assets other than the character invalidates such a broad definition. It's impossible for everyone that plays the game to be on the same schedule.

I have spelled my position out for you like one would for a little child and still you attempt to distort my position, which is, paraphrased, and for the last time:

Attack bases whenever you like, but if you set out to attack someone when they are offline with one of the primary reasons for your attack being that they are offline and can't defend themself, then you are a dishonorable player and maybe even a cheat.

For example, it would be dishonorable to make a copy of an org's roster, to monitor when the high level members are and aren't on then to attack their towers at a time calculated as when the most people in the org are not playing.

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Dishonorable? Maybe. But when it comes to people I'm attacking I claim to be a practical man, not a honorable one. Perhaps this quote is more to your liking:

I could have guessed that your moral views derive from movies and television.

[Jynne]

Kuroshio vs Sanskrit: Soldier morality vs Chivalric morality.

A soldier seeks, and takes advantage of, every possible advantage in winning in battle. Soldiers are fighting for the interests and often the very survival of their homeland, and so to the soldier, victory is more important than being ethical. Ethics serve small purpose when you are dead in battle.

A Chivalric Knight is someone who fights for glory and reputation above national survival or tangible interests. These are the people who want to 'fight fair' even at a handicap to themselves, because to do otherwise damages their reputation and their reputation is more meaningful than their life.

Neither situation entirely applies to what is, in the end, an online game that people play for enjoyment. I seriously doubt even Sun Tzu enjoyed total warfare, just as I doubt medeviel knights really enjoyed dying with honor any more than they enjoyed dying without.

I don't really consider morality as the primary relevant factor to what's in the end a matter of game design in a computer program. There are certain boundaries of right and wrong that can be debated, but the solution to this 'issue' is to either extend or reduce the number of hours a base is at 25% for, not to declare certain tactics immoral.

[Canto]

Originally posted by Halfnelson


Now that's a run-on sentence.

Actually not, it may be an overlong sentence but is not a run-on.

Originally posted by Halfnelson

If I knew you, and possibly the bulk of your guild, we're gonna be offline? LOL! I'd be destroying your base without a second thought! Call me a cheater, unsportsmanlike, dishonorable? Fine. You ain't got no base, bubba!! LOL. Then I'd rub your nose in it by placing my Control Tower where your's was.

To quote Sun Tzu's little brother, Phred Tzu. "Don't be caught napping!"

Oh! Oh! How about this:

Bad guy, "You just shot an unarmed man!"

Worse guy, "Well...he should have armed himself."

Sweet dreams...

I only hope the attitudes you express are not the attitudes of the members of your org, or of most of the players in the game.

If that was the attitude of a majority of my org, I would unfortunately have to leave and advise all my friends in the game to avoid that org of dishonorable players.

AO will quickly become an empty place when the people who work leave because the game expects them to be beholden to it or be victimized by dishonorable players. Enjoy all those towers in the wasteland.

[Canto]

Originally posted by Jynne
Kuroshio vs Sanskrit: Soldier morality vs Chivalric morality.

Jynne, it's much simpler than that. I believe in sportsmanship in playing a game, any game. Play hard, play to win, play fair.

Kuroshio and "Ven" believe in taking advantage of any situation, going right over the line of unfair play and right up to the very line of getting caught cheating in a game to win.

In a chess match, if my opponent became deathly ill, and had to leave the game asking for an extension of clock rules, I would agree to it. They would not. (or at least to do so would be inconsistent with what they have posted)

In real life, in my profession, I push things to the very limit.

But that is real life and this is a game. I derive entertainment, not my notion of self-worth, from games. Using dishonorable tactics to win games is not entertaining to me but apparently is to them.

[locomdenom]

It's supposed to be war, not a basketball game.

Sun Tzu sayings: "strike where the enemy is not prepared, take him by surprise" and "avoid the solid and strike the weak".

In other words, seize the advantage. If the guild created their base in such a way that the vulnerable times will occur when you're offline... well, that wasn't very strategic thinking, now was it?

It's simply smart tactics. Traders take advantage of OE mechanics by draining: do I think they shouldn't drain? Hell no! They should use the advantages they can find. If you think the mechanics are broken, try to get them changed, don't whine that people take advantage of them.

[Canto]

It IS a game much closer to basketball than to a FRIGGIN WAR, it is a game, it is a game, it is a game. It is not a pony, it is not a car, it is not a star, it is not a WAR. It is a game, a wargame, but a game indeed. How far would a colonel advance if he had his troops load their guns with live rounds to win a wargame? Would the generals appreciate his "strategy?" He won didn't he? Should get a promotion shouldn't he?

How far did Tonya Harding get? SAME THING

OK here's are some legitimate applications of what you call "SunTzu" and what all the normal people in the world call "strategy"

1) You know that an org you are fighting is in the middle of an attack. You attack their base then to force a choice, do they continue the attack or rush to defend their base?

2) You know that the clanners are at Tarasque; you attack then because it forces them to make a choice between Tara and defending their base.

SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE AND:

1) You know your opponent's org primarily consists of people who are on EST in the US. Since your org, for the most part, consists of non-working people, students or people who have access at work, you plan a raid to occur at 10 AM EST Monday morning when you know that 95% of your opponent org members will have JUST ARRIVED AT WORK.

Choose how you will, but if you can't see the difference between these two types of "strategies" one legitimate and one very illegitimate, then you are probably destined to be morally retarded for some time to come.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Sanskrit
It IS a game much closer to basketball than to a FRIGGIN WAR, it is a game, it is a game, it is a game. It is not a pony, it is not a car, it is not a star, it is not a WAR. It is a game, a wargame, but a game indeed. How far would a colonel advance if he had his troops load their guns with live rounds to win a wargame? Would the generals appreciate his "strategy?" He won didn't he? Should get a promotion shouldn't he?

How far did Tonya Harding get? SAME THING

Yes, boiled down to the essence, it's just a game. However, attacking when you're not online is well within the rules of the game. It's guaranteed to happen given the nature of the game. Calling people "cheaters" because you don't like the rules and the nature of the game may not be "cheating", as you accuse the people who are playing by the rules...

But it is childish beyond words.

Jynne said I have a 'Soldier morality'. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. I just don't play to lose. I play to win within the rules. I damn sure am no exploiter. And if you can't deal with people playing within the rule and the nature of the game, I trully suggest you terminate your towers and stick to the arena. Nothing is waiting for you but woe and stress in the land control areas.

P.S.
You said

In a chess match, if my opponent became deathly ill, and had to leave the game asking for an extension of clock rules, I would agree to it. They would not. (or at least to do so would be inconsistent with what they have posted)

According to the rules of chess, I cannot make a move until my opponent has made his (I don't play by the clock so I'm unfamiliar with that ruleset). So within the rules of chess, my opponent would be quite safe to see to his illness...Unless money was on the table. Then I'd force a forfeit

[Canto]

Originally posted by Kuroshio


Yes, boiled down to the essence, it's just a game. However, attacking when you're not online is well within the rules of the game.

You can cheat in ANY game without breaking the written rules.

Who are you to determine that the "nature" of the NW is that if you can't keep a perpetual link to your computer that you can't play the game effectively and that you should stick to the arena?

Here's a prediction you can feel free to remind me I was wrong on if I am in 6-8 months; either 1) NW/Land Control/ what have you will evolve to accommodate my philosophy of gameplay very rapidly or 2) you will be very lonely in your attempts to log onto the server of a bankrupt gaming company.

Tell me once too often, FC, that dishonorable playstyles will allow dishonorable players to take things from me in the game EVEN while I am not playing it. This is not the kind of enjoyment I am PAYING for.

Your vision of NW will alienate many of AO's most stable customers, the ones with jobs who don't have credit card refusal problems.

After all these posts, you still will not acknowledge that my position is not "Attacking someone who is offline is cheating" but "Attacking someone for the very reason that they are offline is cheating." I am beginning to think you can't tell the difference which based on your posts, wouldn't surprise me that much.