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Thread: Reset all the land control areas

  1. #41
    Originally posted by Sanskrit


    ROFLMAO, you think you're going to pull out the old cliched SunTzu on me and get away with it? Nooooooo.

    An application of SunTzu to AO, similar to what you advocate, justifies:

    1) Cheating, including exploits.
    2) Cracks and pirating.
    3) All forms of griefing.

    Be careful what reasoning you rely on to justify your GAMEPLAY. You will end up with a new set of "ethics."

    Now go back to your sophomore (high school, not even the most naive college student would quote Sun Tzu in such a superficial manner and in disregard of context) "World Cultures" class and finish your book report.
    UT Austin, Class of '92

    And there are far more situations where Sun Tzu's words are applicable in AO than you'd prolly care to admit. Not my fault you don't know the basics of defense...
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  2. #42
    The squeaky wheel is more likely to get the grease, Kuroshio.

    And these boards and Funcom's reaction to people posting have essentially proven that it holds true here, too.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  3. #43
    Originally posted by Kuroshio


    UT Austin, Class of '92

    And there are far more situations where Sun Tzu's words are applicable in AO than you'd prolly care to admit. Not my fault you don't know the basics of defense...
    You are a college graduate and not a recent one? wow. Glad I didnt get into UTs philosophy doctorate program in 93.

    Please address my point that the application of SunTzu you advocate would approve of cheating and cracking the game.

    I am well versed in "defense" and also well aware of the sad fact that I have to work to support myself. Would that I did have unlimited time to play computer games.

    I think I understand your "ethics" though.

  4. #44
    Just to toss in my two cents:

    My guild, Synergy Factor, received Notum Wars later than many others. By the time our guild president had installed it, all of the good high-level land control areas were taken.

    We now have a QL250 and a QL200 base -- both of which we took from Omni guilds -- they were not open plots of land. That's the point of this game. It's a struggle to control land. If you can't take down a base to take control of land, then you probably aren't able to defend it either.

    Perhaps you should try attacking a base with the hopes of destroying it to put up your own Controller before you start screaming for Funcom to turn off a part of their game which went live over 3 weeks ago. Use tactics and alliances to help you amass forces. Don't just expect everything to be handed to you on a silver platter. If you work towards something you want, it makes it that much more rewarding when you achieve your goal.

    The distribution sucked(s) and we all dealt with the same issues. Some of us chose to deal with it differently than others -- and we came out just fine.

  5. #45
    Have the bases go *boom* every 14 days

    Now the big orgs can have much fun gaining back those bases from all the small orgs rushing in to build a tower

    But I guess it all comes down to *Mine, mine get away itzzzz mine*.

    I guess you'll support some of the other clan orgs down in Omni land now Sheffy? Or will Synergy Factor retreate to defence only to avoid 25% any time but in the cycle?

    Sorry to play the devils advocate here, but NW is turning into fun for a few, don't care for the masses...

  6. #46
    Originally posted by Snublefot
    I guess you'll support some of the other clan orgs down in Omni land now Sheffy? Or will Synergy Factor retreate to defence only to avoid 25% any time but in the cycle?

    Sorry to play the devils advocate here, but NW is turning into fun for a few, don't care for the masses...
    I'll answer those two questions assuming you didn't mean for them to sound as accusatory and condescending as they came across.

    I've helped multiple Clan orgs in their strikes against Omni organizations. Synergy Factor has jumped at the opportunity to both defend Clan bases when attacked, and join in on Clan assaults on other Omni bases.

    What we will not do is go out of our way to attack random Omni bases just to pick a fight. Our targets are strategically chosen and often coordinated with other guilds. We try not to make too many enemies, as that seems to be a way to make yourself a great target, as some Clan guilds have found out already.

  7. #47
    Don't take offense Sheffy, I'm not native english, and my way to argue is to put things on the edge.

    What I see is that the NW is stabilizing (areas are crytalizing to omni/clan). For gameplay reasons, FC should shake the picture. Perhaps introduce global notum accidents where all towers blow up every 14 days. Only omni/neut orgs could build on previously clan owned property and the other way around for the first 24 hours. Would boost the neuts, thats for sure. And there would be some very interesting power struggles the next 14 days.

    Perhaps the towers just cost too much right now to introduce that sink. I don't know, but it would be interesting. And it would perhaps break some of the negative tension that is developing in this game right now. Right now I feel that the large orgs are starting to secure their land (take a look at the story on ao-basher, for gameplay reasons, FC should shake alliances like that). And most of the other people settle for a 10% XP advantage and don't really care about towers.

  8. #48
    Originally posted by Jynne
    The squeaky wheel is more likely to get the grease, Kuroshio.

    And these boards and Funcom's reaction to people posting have essentially proven that it holds true here, too.
    Fun Fact #1 About Things Covered In Grease:
    They burn easier and longer being covered in a flammable material

    Hm...deeper than I thought
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  9. #49
    Originally posted by Sanskrit


    You are a college graduate and not a recent one? wow. Glad I didnt get into UTs philosophy doctorate program in 93.

    Please address my point that the application of SunTzu you advocate would approve of cheating and cracking the game.

    I am well versed in "defense" and also well aware of the sad fact that I have to work to support myself. Would that I did have unlimited time to play computer games.

    I think I understand your "ethics" though.
    Actually my degrees have nothing to do with philosophy.

    If you're trying to call me an exploiter, your so far off base we need to send you a rubber raft before you drown in the ocean.

    Basic principle, outlined by Sun Tsu and unavoidable no matter what Funcom implements: If I, as the aggressor, know where to attack I also get to determine when to attack.
    Therefore, if we want to do battle, even if the enemy is protected by high walls and deep moats, he cannot but do battle, because we attack what he must rescue.
    And that attack will come when its most inconvenient for you.

    Funcom cannot prevent yielding the advantage of mobility and freedom of actions to the attacker, no matter how many game mechanics they put in place against it. That's not exploiting. That's basic warfare that even kids learn when playing Cowboys and Indians.

    Now does Funcom need to find a way to swing defenders an advantage since they've yielded critical advantages, mobility and freedom of actions, to their attackers by investing in an immobile asset? So long as it's not on the rediculous scale of the QL 250 controllers, yes. But no matter what, they cannot prevent me or anyone else from attacking you when your defenses are at their lowest. If that's when you're not online, tough luck. If they implement an alliance system, I can still attack when you're not on and your allies aren't availible (be it distracted defending their own assets or offline as well). You are simply SOL and if you didn't think things through before you sank millions of credits into a base, then you're also foolish.

    Oh btw...Don't try to cover your own weaknesses with slander, such as accusing people using basic tactics of exploiting. I suppose you'd also accuse someone using a spy in your org for info as 'Exploiting' as well
    Last edited by Kuroshio; Dec 17th, 2002 at 14:01:06.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  10. #50
    Originally posted by Snublefot
    Don't take offense Sheffy, I'm not native english, and my way to argue is to put things on the edge.

    What I see is that the NW is stabilizing (areas are crytalizing to omni/clan). For gameplay reasons, FC should shake the picture. Perhaps introduce global notum accidents where all towers blow up every 14 days. Only omni/neut orgs could build on previously clan owned property and the other way around for the first 24 hours. Would boost the neuts, thats for sure. And there would be some very interesting power struggles the next 14 days.

    Perhaps the towers just cost too much right now to introduce that sink. I don't know, but it would be interesting. And it would perhaps break some of the negative tension that is developing in this game right now. Right now I feel that the large orgs are starting to secure their land (take a look at the story on ao-basher, for gameplay reasons, FC should shake alliances like that). And most of the other people settle for a 10% XP advantage and don't really care about towers.
    No, I couldn't support wiping out anyone's investment simply to 'shake things up'. What would be acceptable is implementing 'maintenance', something someone touched on obliquely in another thread. Make the bases require constant maintaining, else their attributes begin to weaken. So yes a fully maintained and supported QL 250 base with all the trimmings might be untouchable. But one that's poorly maintain can be knocked over easily.

    Right now, a single credit expenditure goes a loooooong way. That needs to be changed. Of course, doing something like implementing maintenance would mean raising the benefits for having bases. But this is all ways towers can be improved once we all get done poking holes into the underlying foundation of the tower concept
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  11. #51
    Kuroshio: I'm just throwing ideas from the top of my head

    Here is another one that was inspired from the word maintenance (stupid word )

    1) Defense values scale by the % of remaining HP of a tower. So the amount a support tower buffs a controller is not on or off, but dependent on how much HP it have.
    2) Negative heal delta for support towers.


    That could be interesting, but might be more tedious then its worth. And healing don't cost credits.
    So:
    3) disable healing of towers.
    4) to heal a tower you need a tower shop bought item that restores a set amount of HP on the tower. Credit sink.
    5) Reduce the price of towers.
    6) Balance that by the price of the tower heal thingy.

    A QL250 support tower costs about 2-4M right now? Reduce that price to 1M, and when you place it, it starts a 10% HP and you need to apply, lets say 25 QL 250 tower heals. Each costing 160K. The tower could perhaps tick down so its 0% after 72 hours. Now you got a cost to maintaining a base.

    So if you have 4 QL 250 support towers, it would cost you 6M every day to keep them Some would say that *can blitz that in an hour*. My budget would hurt. A lot.

    That one makes sense to me, and it shouldn't be that hard to implement, as most of the elements are in game already.

  12. #52
    Originally posted by Snublefot
    Kuroshio: I'm just throwing ideas from the top of my head

    Here is another one that was inspired from the word maintenance (stupid word )

    1) Defense values scale by the % of remaining HP of a tower. So the amount a support tower buffs a controller is not on or off, but dependent on how much HP it have.
    2) Negative heal delta for support towers.


    That could be interesting, but might be more tedious then its worth. And healing don't cost credits.
    So:
    3) disable healing of towers.
    4) to heal a tower you need a tower shop bought item that restores a set amount of HP on the tower. Credit sink.
    5) Reduce the price of towers.
    6) Balance that by the price of the tower heal thingy.

    A QL250 support tower costs about 2-4M right now? Reduce that price to 1M, and when you place it, it starts a 10% HP and you need to apply, lets say 25 QL 250 tower heals. Each costing 160K. The tower could perhaps tick down so its 0% after 72 hours. Now you got a cost to maintaining a base.

    So if you have 4 QL 250 support towers, it would cost you 6M every day to keep them Some would say that *can blitz that in an hour*. My budget would hurt. A lot.

    That one makes sense to me, and it shouldn't be that hard to implement, as most of the elements are in game already.
    Interesting ideas. Shame it's at the bottom of a whine thread where nobody that counts is likely to read it

    And people wonder why I hate these things
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  13. #53
    It's quite possible that many of these threads wouldn't be (what you consider) whines if people (like you) didn't come in flaming them all the time, Kuroshio.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  14. #54
    Somebody hasn't had her morning coffee. :P
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
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  15. #55
    Originally posted by Jynne
    It's quite possible that many of these threads wouldn't be (what you consider) whines if people (like you) didn't come in flaming them all the time, Kuroshio.
    Explain This thread

    Or perhaps This one

    or perhaps This one

    I'm pretty careful with where I keep my flamethrower, Jynne. And Fluffy (my pet dragon) is off eating my company's marketing department at the moment.

    And yes, this was a whine thread from the start. Unless you're saying you seriously believe the person that originally posted it didn't know it'd be impossible to reset the land control areas. Since that would jack everyone that had setup a tower out of their investment (time / credits).
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  16. #56
    So... because some people with complaints can't express them very well and without looking like idiots, you therefore lump all people with complaints in with them?

    And hey, is it really justified to be flaming someone for being annoyed that the borked up NW distribution left them as one of the people with no chair when the music stopped?

    Obviously resetting the land control areas is out of the question. But it's not like this person didn't have a better reason to get torqued off than most people who throw up a "whine post." Something totally outside their ability to control, at all, put them - and thousands of other players - at a disadvantage.

    This isn't, "So-and-so pwned me in the arena, but they're like, a merchant and should die in an instant to my ubah soldja powa. Nerf drains."

    But, I'm rapidly starting to realize that we will never see an MMORPG with decent quality control and reliable, fair service, until there are laws on the books requiring it and providing enforcement mechanisms.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  17. #57
    Originally posted by Kuroshio

    But no matter what, they cannot prevent me or anyone else from attacking you when your defenses are at their lowest. If that's when you're not online, tough luck.
    We are playing a game, not involved in a war. You are talking about the equivalent of hiding Monopoly money under the table while your opponent is gone to the bathroom. No mechanism nor rule in the book prevents you from doing so, but it is still wrong. If it is your idea of fair and sportsmanlike gameplay to calculate when someone is NOT PLAYING THE GAME, and use that information to your advantage against them IN THE GAME, then you are a cheater and beneath contempt.

    Am I saying you have to attack during certain hours? No. But time and time again, it has been obvious that attacks were calculated purposefully to occur when no opponent was sitting across the table to PLAY THE GAME AGAINST. This is cheating in the same respect that any other dishonorable action not covered in the rule book of any game is cheating.

    Cheat if you want, but do it proudly and admit what you are.

  18. #58
    Originally posted by Jynne
    So... because some people with complaints can't express them very well and without looking like idiots, you therefore lump all people with complaints in with them?

    And hey, is it really justified to be flaming someone for being annoyed that the borked up NW distribution left them as one of the people with no chair when the music stopped?

    Obviously resetting the land control areas is out of the question. But it's not like this person didn't have a better reason to get torqued off than most people who throw up a "whine post." Something totally outside their ability to control, at all, put them - and thousands of other players - at a disadvantage.

    This isn't, "So-and-so pwned me in the arena, but they're like, a merchant and should die in an instant to my ubah soldja powa. Nerf drains."

    But, I'm rapidly starting to realize that we will never see an MMORPG with decent quality control and reliable, fair service, until there are laws on the books requiring it and providing enforcement mechanisms.
    And my initial reply in this thread was a cross post I made elsewhere explaining why the 'disadvantage' was imagined. I didn't enter this thread until post #22. I'll barely mention you jumped in much earlier with:
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jynne

    ...At this point I am reassessing whether or not I even want to bother having a base...
    /quote] Subtle, but perceptible...

    We can go round and round here, Jynne. Won't change the fact the initial poster prolly knew darn well that resetting the land control wasn't an option and was only posting to 'explain' how they got cheated out of valuable land.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  19. #59
    Originally posted by Sanskrit


    We are playing a game, not involved in a war. You are talking about the equivalent of hiding Monopoly money under the table while your opponent is gone to the bathroom. No mechanism nor rule in the book prevents you from doing so, but it is still wrong. If it is your idea of fair and sportsmanlike gameplay to calculate when someone is NOT PLAYING THE GAME, and use that information to your advantage against them IN THE GAME, then you are a cheater and beneath contempt.

    Am I saying you have to attack during certain hours? No. But time and time again, it has been obvious that attacks were calculated purposefully to occur when no opponent was sitting across the table to PLAY THE GAME AGAINST. This is cheating in the same respect that any other dishonorable action not covered in the rule book of any game is cheating.

    Cheat if you want, but do it proudly and admit what you are.
    First you claim you're not saying that people have to attack during certain hours. Then you call me a cheater if I attack you when you're not online, so in order to avoid being a cheater I would have to attack you during certain hours...

    Stop the ride...I'm getting dizzy following this logic
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  20. #60
    You can't "calculate" when someone's entire guild is going to be offline and attack then.

    Because everyone's towers are 100% for 18 hours, 25% for 5 hours, and 5% for 1 hour.

    Simple math shows that bases go 25% at the same time, every day.
    Veteran Homer "Detonate" McDuff - My Equipment
    -= First Order =-

    First Order is one of the largest and most powerful Omni-Tek Departments located on Rubi-Ka 1. If you are a dedicated Omni-Tek employee looking for superior opportunities within the company, check out http://www.firstorder.net/ and apply for a position today!
    First Order is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate based on Breed, Level, or Profession.


    WHY MMORPG'S SUCK!

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