Just a point to note...

[______________Nelida]

With ICC's deregulation of mining many Clan and Neutral orgs have placed LEGAL mining operations in designated areas.

It seems that unprovoked attacks against privately held mining operations by Omni organizations effectively makes those agressive Omni orgs...criminals.

As much criminal, in fact, as they had previously proclaimed Clans to be.

Legion, RHD and Phoenix Consortium immediately come to mind as having joined the ranks of Rubika's criminal element last night for their unprovoked attacks on legally placed and owned Clan mines.

I might point out that some of those attacks were NOT in retribution for any offense against their own holdings.

Perhaps Legion, RHD and PC you did not knowingly attack legal Clan holdings?

Perhaps you did not know you attacked publically proclaimed non-agressive guilds? And hence, could not be taken as just retribution?

Perhaps you would like to offer remuneration for your criminal acts of destruction?

I would be happy to try and arrange such compensation as might be appropriate for your unkowingly perpetrated criminal action...and perhaps forge a new understanding between various orgs that might otherwise be perpetually at each others throats for an obvious misunderstanding.

[Fixerben]

Well, an excellent point Nel. I am so used to being the "Clan Criminas"l I didnt even stop to think that now OT can be criminal as well...

Kind of odd to be pointing "The Finger(tm)" this time, instead of having it pointed at me...Can I throw "The Book (tm)" at them too? lol

Not to make a joke out of something this serious but I do feel kind of odd being on the end of things that is viewed as correct. It used to be no matter how nice we were, we were still criminals. I guess its time that had to change.

[Vixentrox]

It will be interesting when and if OTRK makes an announcement about their employees' illeagal behaviors. Boss Ross...can you not hear the gunfire? Do you not know their is a war on? Sometime I wonder when OTRK will rise up against the indifference of their corporate leaders like the Clans did to remove the ever silent and uncaring "Council of Truth". Is Boss Ross still in charge of OTRK? Hard to tell when their is so little communique.

[Arila]

The ICC does not rule the Runi-Kan law, Omni-Tek does, and as far as leagal placed clan towers... the entire planet is under omni-tek law, so i cant see that our employees have done anything wrong by attack your towers, whitn OT areas.

(OOC: Un provoked attacks is against my personal views )

[Vixentrox]

Ah...Omni-tek leases Rubi-ka by the graces of the ICC. If the ICC deregulates notum mining (which they have) then all residents have the right to build their very own mine regardless of faction.

[______________Nelida]

Isn't OT 'law' only in place by the grace of ICC? ICC controls who is and is not allowed to mine notum on this planet unless I am very very confused. ICC has deregulated mining allowing private mines to operate.

In my view anyone, be they Clan, Omni or Neutrals that attack another mine without provocation are nothing more than criminals now.

Recently I've seen more than a few organizations on all sides take the path of the common thug.

I still offer my services to help those that wish to make restitution for their crimes against innocent mining operations. I'll be happy to help negotiate restitution for any side that wishes to change thier ways and back away from the criminal path they have chosen.

Originally posted by Arila
The ICC does not rule the Runi-Kan law, Omni-Tek does, and as far as leagal placed clan towers... the entire planet is under omni-tek law, so i cant see that our employees have done anything wrong by attack your towers, whitn OT areas.

(OOC: Un provoked attacks is against my personal views )

[AiymaNeut]

Actually, Arila, even though Rubi-Ka is subject to OTRK law, the ICC ultimately retains the supreme authority to formulate or strike any law applicable to the planet and/or its citizens.

The only questions that remain, however, is how OTRK will handle attacks on its employees' facilities, as well as whether or not it will turn a blind eye to its employees attacking Clan and Neutral operations.

[lilnymph]

Actually, as I understand it, the ICC DOESN'T have the power to overturn laws on corperate worlds. It can not renew leases, or impose sanctions to force a complience from a corporation, but it can't actually change local laws (Like the UN now, but with slightly more power). However it is also based on laws and rules, and it has to follow them. Also if I remember correctly OT has launced an appeal against the changing of the lease, and it is possible that untill this is resolved the legal status of the Clan and neutral mines of Rubi-Ka is a little murky, as no one is really sure which version of the lease is in effect.

Hugs

lilnymph

[AiymaNeut]

The very fact that the ICC can conduct a closed review and thereafter unconditionally deregulate the landholdings from OTRK to the people is quite ample evidence that it does have the power to alter domestic laws, insofar as such laws are included in the planet's Lease.

[Fixerben]

Alamexis I think lilnymph is confused on what the ICC really is. I have explained exactly what the ICC is and does in many threads on this forum. I cant remember which ones, and I certainly dont feel like typing that much again at the moment. As for their power to change local laws, and renew leases. The ICC does have supreme power over all things related to Rubi-Ka's Economy. One such thing would be the mining of Notum, hence their deregulation. And the ICC can choose to, or not to renew OT's lease on Rubi-Ka. Though I'm sure if OT paid enough money they wouldnt have to worry about that. As well I am sure that OT can afford it...

[lilnymph]

Benjacrat, Personally I feel it is you, not I, who is missunderstanding just what the ICC is. The View I have of it, is it is very much like the UN of present times, a "Neutral" organisation set up to resolves issues between sovereign bodies (in this case, the Hyper corporations). It has more influence than the present UN, as all planetary leasing happens though it. However it has no "Power" of its own, only that which the corporations give it. If for some reason all the Corps tomorrow decided they no longer wanted it, it would cease to exist as a useful body. Remember the "ICC" Troops came on Corporation ships, and where most likely corporate troops in a different uniform.

Hugs

lilnymph

[Fixerben]

Yes, lilnymph the ICC is comprised of the Hypercorporations. But the ICC does have the power to renew or not renew the lease on Rubi-Ka. And they obviously have reserved the right to change local laws on a planet that is leased through them. Otherwise how could they deregulate Notum Mining?

[lilnymph]

The point I am trying to make, is that the ICC is NOT free to either change local laws on a leased world, or change the lease of a planet, unless a) the lease has been breached.
b) sanctions are being imposed on the governing corporation for some reason (ie the corporate wars). It has to follow the law. I get the feeling rubi-ka is being treated very strangly, (probably because of presure from Sol banking, and Thru space), and that what is going on here is probably very unusual, and quite possibily pushing illigal, but at the moment it is a fight in the ICC between Sol and Thru space on one side, and Omni-Tek on the other, with the others staying neutral at the moment. However neither side can push too hard at the moment, Omni-tek can't risk angering all the other corps, and Sol can't risk pushing the icc too far, and setting too many precidents of the icc taking control of a legally leased corperate world. Why you ask? because however important rubi-ka is, it is only one world, and each corporation is leasing planets too. They wont want the ICC suddenly deciding how they can and can't run their worlds. Therefore SOl and the ICC have to make it at least SEEM that everything the ICC is doing is because Omni-Tek has broken some part of the lease, and the measures put in place are to bring things back on track. This allows the other corporations to turn a blind eye to it. If the ICC does anything TOO major (say revoke the lease now for no reason) the other corps would be forced to act on Omni's side.

sorry for this probably not making much sense, but in the middle of something at work too (yes, I DO know what time it is)

hugs

lilnymph

[Fixerben]

Originally posted by lilnymph
The point I am trying to make, is that the ICC is NOT free to either change local laws on a leased world, or change the lease of a planet, unless a) the lease has been breached.
b) sanctions are being imposed on the governing corporation for some reason (ie the corporate wars). It has to follow the law. I get the feeling rubi-ka is being treated very strangly, (probably because of presure from Sol banking, and Thru space), and that what is going on here is probably very unusual, and quite possibily pushing illigal, but at the moment it is a fight in the ICC between Sol and Thru space on one side, and Omni-Tek on the other, with the others staying neutral at the moment. However neither side can push too hard at the moment, Omni-tek can't risk angering all the other corps, and Sol can't risk pushing the icc too far, and setting too many precidents of the icc taking control of a legally leased corperate world. Why you ask? because however important rubi-ka is, it is only one world, and each corporation is leasing planets too. They wont want the ICC suddenly deciding how they can and can't run their worlds. Therefore SOl and the ICC have to make it at least SEEM that everything the ICC is doing is because Omni-Tek has broken some part of the lease, and the measures put in place are to bring things back on track. This allows the other corporations to turn a blind eye to it. If the ICC does anything TOO major (say revoke the lease now for no reason) the other corps would be forced to act on Omni's side.

Ok, lilnymph, time for a little history lesson. I will give you some examples of the ICC's authority over Rubi-Ka if they choose to excercise it.

28711 - With ICC approval - as standard colonisation practise - Omni-Tek begins to experiment with DNA sequencing on human foetuses to produce breeds that are better suited to Rubi-Kan conditions than the regular Homo Solitus.

The ICC had to approve that.

29222 - ICC urges Omni-Tek to reconsider their policies in regards to the clans, and threatens to shorten the lease on Rubi-Ka unless the issue is addressed.

Well now that sounds like the ICC has control over the lease to me.

June 09 29442 - The Corporate Wars end with a ceasefire brokered by the ICC. The wars have claimed the lives of an estimated one hundred and twenty million people over the course of fifty-three years.

ICC stops a 53 year war. Now theres some power. And this war not only was on Rubi-Ka, but on many planets in many solar systems. A Galactic organization that has no power on one of the planets leased through it?

January 18 29444 - As part of the cross-corporate penalties affecting all ICC member-corporations, Omni-Tek's lease on Rubi-Ka is severely reduced. It now expires on January 1, 29500.

ICC excercises its power pertaining to the lease. They shortened it.

March 13 29444 - ICC and Omni-Tek agree to extend the lease to January 1. 29550, with an option to extend it further if OT complies with all future ICC rulings.

OT must comply, sounds like an implication of ICC's absolute power over OT to me.

Often to find the answers to the future one must look to the past.

[Vixentrox]

Very astute and careful reasearch Benjacrat. Yes one must dwell in the dust of history books to see how we got to where we are today. The ICC has the power. Of that there is no doubt.

[lilnymph]

I disagree with your conclusion, and will go through each part and state my case.

Originally posted by Benjacrat

28711 - With ICC approval - as standard colonisation practise - Omni-Tek begins to experiment with DNA sequencing on human foetuses to produce breeds that are better suited to Rubi-Kan conditions than the regular Homo Solitus.

The ICC had to approve that.

ok, I missed out the ICC has the power to approve changes to to DNA to produce breeds, This is a power like the leasing of planets, of a regulatory type.

29222 - ICC urges Omni-Tek to reconsider their policies in regards to the clans, and threatens to shorten the lease on Rubi-Ka unless the issue is addressed.

Well now that sounds like the ICC has control over the lease to me.

Yes, they are threatening to shorten the lease unless Omni-Tek comply. However I am betting there is a clause in the lease about treatment of colonists, or the political stability of colonies, which is what the ICC is demanding is followed.

June 09 29442 - The Corporate Wars end with a ceasefire brokered by the ICC. The wars have claimed the lives of an estimated one hundred and twenty million people over the course of fifty-three years.

ICC stops a 53 year war. Now theres some power. And this war not only was on Rubi-Ka, but on many planets in many solar systems. A Galactic organization that has no power on one of the planets leased through it?

The ICC didn't stop the War, the brokered a Ceasefire. Basically this means they acted as neutral arbitrators. This actually shows that they HAVEN'T any power, as they couldn't force the sides to stop the war, or even prevent it in the first place. All they could do was help the sides work out their difference's peacefully.

January 18 29444 - As part of the cross-corporate penalties affecting all ICC member-corporations, Omni-Tek's lease on Rubi-Ka is severely reduced. It now expires on January 1, 29500.

ICC excercises its power pertaining to the lease. They shortened it.

As I already stated, they have the power to apply sanctions against member corporations, when the majority (ie the law) view it is appropriate. In the case of the corporate wars all corporations where sanctioned.

March 13 29444 - ICC and Omni-Tek agree to extend the lease to January 1. 29550, with an option to extend it further if OT complies with all future ICC rulings.

OT must comply, sounds like an implication of ICC's absolute power over OT to me.

Often to find the answers to the future one must look to the past.

As I already stated they have the power over the leases, and can affect them when the LAW allows (this is with the implication that ICC rulings are legal). However I still maintain they have NO power unless the laws state something, which is shown by the fact Omni-Tek and Sol Banking can and have made legal challanges to ICC rullings.

Also the very fact of the Corporate wars proves the ICC doesn't maintain absolute power over the corporations, or they would never have allowed this to happen. Basically the ICC is the forum that sets the laws, however it only maintains power as long as the corporations wish it too. The corporate wars show it is incapable of acting without the support of the member corporations, or at least the majority, to back up its legitimacy.

to bring in some evidence of my own.

A coalition of rival corporations announces a complete ban on Omni-Tek products and services. The ICC declares the ban illegal, and urges the coalition to rescind the ban. The coalition accuses the ICC of favouritism.

They declare the ban illegal, then Urge them to rescind it, not force them too. This again proves they have no power over the corporations other than that the corporations give them.

Because of the severe loss of civilian life and property, the ICC conducts an independent investigation into the weather control-system catastrophe, and concludes that the fault lies with Omni-Tek engineers. Omni-Tek is urged to contract the development of new control-systems to a third party, but OT refuses.

Again this shows that the ICC has no power to force a corporation to run a colony how the ICC would like, unless the corporation is in breach of the lease.

ICC submits a formal complaint - signed by the majority of member corporations - regarding the working conditions on Rubi-Ka to the Omni-Tek board, and demands that improvements be made immediately.

This shows that they should be working through correct legal channels to get Omni-Tek to comply, by submitting formal complaints signed by the member corporations.

So I still maintain that the ICC has NO power unless the Member corporations back it up, and that it has to follow the law, and cannot do as it likes, or force a corporation to act in a way it likes on one of the corporations colonies, UNLESS the lease is being broken, or sanctions are being imposed. Personally I think the ICC is being to act very recklessly, and I wouldn't be supprised to see a vote of no confidence in the head of the ICC very soon.

Hugs

lilnymph

[Fixerben]

How can you miss ICC's approval in this statement?

"28711 - With ICC approval - as standard colonisation practise - Omni-Tek begins to experiment with DNA sequencing on human foetuses to produce breeds that are better suited to Rubi-Kan conditions than the regular Homo Solitus. "

The first 3 words are "With ICC approval". That means the ICC sets procedures for initial colonization. Which means that they have to approve of what you are doing.


"However I am betting there is a clause in the lease about treatment of colonists"

Also I never disagreed that their might be stipulations in the lease about treatment of the colonists. I wouldnt doubt if it was there.

"The ICC didn't stop the War, the brokered a Ceasefire."

Now I would like to know how you think the ICC brokered the ceasefire without any power? They obviously have to have some leverage to get the Corporations to stop long enough to talk. And how else do you end a war, other than a ceasefire. The war cant end if there isnt a ceasefire. So technically the ICC ended the war, WITHOUT the backing of any of the corporations.

And YES the ICC does have the power. Even if its only when all the other corporations are backing them, the ICC still has the power. And even if it comes from filed complaints, or breaches of a lease. They still have the power. It doesnt matter how they get it, or where they get it from, they have it. The simple fact is:

"The ICC has intervened, and shown its power. No matter where it comes from. The ICC does have the power in this instance."

[lilnymph]

Your missing the point, the ICC DIDN'T stop the war, they just provided a neutral voice so the CORPORATIONS could stop the war.

To use an example of the present time, the USA went to the UN to get a resolution to back the use of force in Iraq if Iraq didn't comply with international law. Does this mean the UN has absolute power over the USA, because they need permission like that? no it doesn't, as the only power the UN has is that which is given to it by the other countries in the world. The UN can't force the USA or any other country to do ANYTHING, it can only say what the majority of its member want (not even that, just what the majority of the security council want). THAT is what international law really is, and I think what the ICC is here. What do you think would happen if all the corporations decided that that they wanted to shoot every 3rd person born on their worlds, even though it was against ICC Laws? would the ICC be able to stop them. The answer is no, so the ICC has no power. This means that it has to walk a fine line, in that it can't be seen to be showing favourtism, or be doing anything illegal, as if it does, the other Corporations will ally themselves together, for self protections.

Also you never addressed my points about Omni-Tek and the allience IGNORING the wishes of the ICC. If the ICC has absolute power, how where they able to do it?

Hugs

lilnymph

Hugs

lilnymph

[Fixerben]

Well lilnymph, OT ignored the ICC, and the look what happened. Their lease got cut in half. Thats like asking me to ignore my mother and not to expect her to give me a swift kick in the bum.

And even in providing the neutral voice the ICC still had power. You think I have no power because I am a neutral voice? lol.

And about the UN and US. If the US goes to war against a foreign country without proper channels, then the US gets the whole UN fighting back against them. The UN is an organization of countries that were formed for the defense of the smaller countries. In the event that the US, or any other country attacks a smaller country they become the agressor and thereforse suffer certain consequences. Just as OTRK did with the shortening of its lease.

So after all is said and done. The ICC does have the power. As I said, it doesnt matter where they get it from, or what the circumstances have been in the past. In the current instance the ICC has the power to what they wish.

I never said all through history they were all powerful mighty gods of the universe. But in the instance as it pertains to the ICC's deregulation of Notum Mining on Rubi-Ka the ICC has direct control and they were totally within their boundaries to do what they have done. Maybe their reasons werent totally correct, but now its too late. And it doesnt really matter. BUt they obviously do have the power if its already been done.

[lilnymph]

The main point you, and most people I argue this with, is it DOES matter where they get their power from. Take two real world examples. The USA can basically act how it wants, within reason, as it gets it power from itself, its economy and its military. The UN however is hamstrung about how it can act. It can't act against the wishes of the majority of its members, or even the minority of its most powerful members, as without their support the UN itself has NO power. This is the same with the ICC. It CAN'T act against the wishes of the majority of the corporations, or set any precidents they dont like, as if it does, it will lose their support, and its own power. It only has power aslong as it has their support, so it must walk a very fine line, and be seen to be impartial. THAT is why it can't do what it likes on rubi-ka, because the corporations as a whole will not allow it to set the precident of their rivels (ie the other corporations in the ICC) having unlimited power on their colonies. If it tries to push too much through, and can't back it up with legal reasoning, it will lose its power as the "neutral" corporations back Omni-Tek.

Hugs

lilnymph