Proposed design: If you can't be attacked, you can't assist with buffs and healing

[___________Skillless]

I think it is time that I speak up instead of just being quiet on issues like this.

I can deal with the outside buffs, because I can get the same buffs if needs be, everyone can. The problem I see is the healing from someone that is too high or too low to be attacked.

A few days ago, I was trying, with the aid of another guild, to retake the land that my guilds towers once stood on. After I entered the PvP zone a lvl 135ish agent started attacking me. When I returned fire with a decent burst and a few good hits the agent was about dead, when a high lvl Doc came running to the aid of this lower lvl doc and proceeded to chain heal him.

I stood there attacking for about 6 minutes (I know this because I had to recast my temporary HoT a second time). I had to cast a snare on him so I could run out of range and let my HoTs do their work and heal me up to full so I could run back in there and fight again. Only to have not only the doctor healing this agent, but also a high lvl MA start healing him also. I stood there attacking for another few minutes till I decided just to let myself go down instead of running.

I don’t remember the names of the higher lvl people but I do know they were from STORM (and no this was not STORM's base that we were attacking).

All I see is people complaining here, about since they are high lvl they should be able to do as they please. I feel that these people need to look at this issue from the point of view of the lower lvl people, that believe it or not, actually play this game also.

In my opinion, if you build a tower that is way below your pvp range then you stand the chance of it being destroyed by someone that is too low for you to attack. In other words, if you are lvl 150+ and you build a lvl 50, lvl 75, or lvl 100 tower then you better have some people in that lvl range in order to defend it or you are going to lose it, plain and simple.

BTW this, believe it or not is not Real Life. This is a game with different rules than in Real Life. And the rules of PvP, in this game, have lvl restrictions on them. These rules have been in place since this game was created. Live with it already.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Madtactics
I think it is time that I speak up instead of just being quiet on issues like this.

I can deal with the outside buffs, because I can get the same buffs if needs be, everyone can. The problem I see is the healing from someone that is too high or too low to be attacked.

A few days ago, I was trying, with the aid of another guild, to retake the land that my guilds towers once stood on. After I entered the PvP zone a lvl 135ish agent started attacking me. When I returned fire with a decent burst and a few good hits the agent was about dead, when a high lvl Doc came running to the aid of this lower lvl doc and proceeded to chain heal him.

I stood there attacking for about 6 minutes (I know this because I had to recast my temporary HoT a second time). I had to cast a snare on him so I could run out of range and let my HoTs do their work and heal me up to full so I could run back in there and fight again. Only to have not only the doctor healing this agent, but also a high lvl MA start healing him also. I stood there attacking for another few minutes till I decided just to let myself go down instead of running.

I don’t remember the names of the higher lvl people but I do know they were from STORM (and no this was not STORM's base that we were attacking).

Wait, no, horror of horrors... you were attacking someone whose forces were stronger than you and you... eep!... actually lost? Unfair, unfair! They're tougher than me, and there were three of them, and not only couldn't I kill them, but I got killed! Waaaah!

All I see is people complaining here, about since they are high lvl they should be able to do as they please. I feel that these people need to look at this issue from the point of view of the lower lvl people, that believe it or not, actually play this game also.

In my opinion, if you build a tower that is way below your pvp range then you stand the chance of it being destroyed by someone that is too low for you to attack. In other words, if you are lvl 150+ and you build a lvl 50, lvl 75, or lvl 100 tower then you better have some people in that lvl range in order to defend it or you are going to lose it, plain and simple.

There are a lot of lower level people in my guild who'll be very unhappy if I can't help them defend the base we built for them against people attacking it who have outside buffs that they can't get without leaving the base to get them.

BTW this, believe it or not is not Real Life. This is a game with different rules than in Real Life. And the rules of PvP, in this game, have lvl restrictions on them. These rules have been in place since this game was created. Live with it already.

The rules before patch 14.7.1 allowed for healing and buffing anyone regardless of level, like now. They also allowed a level 200 to attack and kill a level 75. Those are the rules that were in place since the game was created. If they weren't changed so that the new limit was 150 instead of 75, this whole discussion would be moot.

[_____________Nalissa]

Originally posted by Madtactics
I think it is time that I speak up instead of just being quiet on issues like this.

I can deal with the outside buffs, because I can get the same buffs if needs be, everyone can. The problem I see is the healing from someone that is too high or too low to be attacked.

A few days ago, I was trying, with the aid of another guild, to retake the land that my guilds towers once stood on. After I entered the PvP zone a lvl 135ish agent started attacking me. When I returned fire with a decent burst and a few good hits the agent was about dead, when a high lvl Doc came running to the aid of this lower lvl doc and proceeded to chain heal him.

I stood there attacking for about 6 minutes (I know this because I had to recast my temporary HoT a second time). I had to cast a snare on him so I could run out of range and let my HoTs do their work and heal me up to full so I could run back in there and fight again. Only to have not only the doctor healing this agent, but also a high lvl MA start healing him also. I stood there attacking for another few minutes till I decided just to let myself go down instead of running.

I don’t remember the names of the higher lvl people but I do know they were from STORM (and no this was not STORM's base that we were attacking).

All I see is people complaining here, about since they are high lvl they should be able to do as they please. I feel that these people need to look at this issue from the point of view of the lower lvl people, that believe it or not, actually play this game also.

In my opinion, if you build a tower that is way below your pvp range then you stand the chance of it being destroyed by someone that is too low for you to attack. In other words, if you are lvl 150+ and you build a lvl 50, lvl 75, or lvl 100 tower then you better have some people in that lvl range in order to defend it or you are going to lose it, plain and simple.

BTW this, believe it or not is not Real Life. This is a game with different rules than in Real Life. And the rules of PvP, in this game, have lvl restrictions on them. These rules have been in place since this game was created. Live with it already.

You are re-iterating the problem. We are already aware of the problem. The solution is the thing that needs to be scrutinized. Although the initial proposed solution may seem a good one given your recent narrow-spectrum experience I assure you that it will cause a landslide of issues associated with it that you may have not considered. Read some of the posts.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Madtactics

In my opinion, if you build a tower that is way below your pvp range then you stand the chance of it being destroyed by someone that is too low for you to attack. In other words, if you are lvl 150+ and you build a lvl 50, lvl 75, or lvl 100 tower then you better have some people in that lvl range in order to defend it or you are going to lose it, plain and simple.

I belong to an organization. None of the criteria for being admitted into the org have to deal with character level. So we have a wide range of levels in the org. The org's average level is 47. That means while it might be desired to place the highest QL towers possible, because of the average level of the org, there are more people capable of placing lower level towers. More people able to place towers means better defenses for the controller and better advantages while defending the controller. That means our controller, even though it's not providing the largest bonuses to the org, has a better chance of survival by being a lower QL tower. Simply because there are more people capable of supplying it with defensive structures.

So that's why my org does not want to place the highest QL controller possible. Not enough people capable of providing it with adequate defenses.

[_____________Nalissa]

Originally posted by Cz
Would you accept that you could never ever take down even a QL 10 controller, because the defending organization had 20 level ~150 characters to defend it?

I don't see why not. I have to accept that i can't destroy a Ql 50 tower, a quality 100 tower, a quality 150 and 200 and 250 tower for exactly the same reason: The defenders may be too strong.

Remember that the decision to attack is a decision to attack an organization, not a tower. We should not have a god-given right to destroy a tower just because it is Ql10. Before we can do that, we need to be able to defeat the guild defending it. This is true regardless of the level of defenders.

It is not as if a large powerful guild is going to monopolize all the low level spots as they cannot place more than 5 towers at best. Those towers are liable in the main to be higher quality.

If we decide that a lvl 20 guild has a basic right to be able to destroy Ql10 towers, then we might as well take the organizations out of the picture, and just place various towers around the landscape for people to destroy. That seems a trifle silly to me.

when you declare war on a guild you should have been prepared to face whatever that guild throws at you. I don't remember seeing the org Towers channel saying:

"Wimp guild has declared war on your tower. They did not declare war on you as a guild, just your tower. Prepare to watch as your tower defends itself. You will not be able to defend as it has been determined that defending your own towers is unfair to weak helpless attackers that had no clue whatsoever who they were attacking."


LOL I hope you can see the humor in this.

[Dhurdahl]

Originally posted by Jynne
Wait, no, horror of horrors... you were attacking someone whose forces were stronger than you and you... eep!... actually lost? Unfair, unfair! They're tougher than me, and there were three of them, and not only couldn't I kill them, but I got killed! Waaaah!

If you bothered to check, you would have noticed that his fixer is 126, and as I understood him... the highlvl doc or MA couldn't attack him due to PvP bracket... This is exactly what this change should fix. That doc shouldn't be able to help that agent!
Stronger? yeah, they are using so "superior" forces that they can't even attack him due to they are too high... pffff

There are a lot of lower level people in my guild who'll be very unhappy if I can't help them defend the base we built for them against people attacking it who have outside buffs that they can't get without leaving the base to get them.

Built for them? huh?? isn't the idea that those chars should build their own controller at an ql that fits them? And to get a longer and more fun fight you need to stay in a close ql/lvl range otherwise it's just slaughter. Bringing in lvl150+ char in a fight that should be for lvl50 people is just rediculus.

Nothing is stopping the defenders from griding out (or before the grid in) and getting those buffs themself. But generaly so will the attackers be better buffed the defenders since they haven't spent 15 buffing before the surprise attack.

The rules before patch 14.7.1 allowed for healing and buffing anyone regardless of level, like now. They also allowed a level 200 to attack and kill a level 75. Those are the rules that were in place since the game was created. If they weren't changed so that the new limit was 150 instead of 75, this whole discussion would be moot.

So you want to wipe out a defending lvl75 orgs teams in 5 sec with lvl200 chars?

No that change was very much needed, esp in a tower senario where you have to stay and defend and can't just run if you see a blod red player come running.


But there is one problem though... QL150 controllers... they are attackable by a very large level span.. Some off the defenders (if they are high level) can't attack some of the attackers due to the PvP bracket and viseversa.... What to do about that I have no idea.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Dhurdahl

If you bothered to check, you would have noticed that his fixer is 126, and as I understood him... the highlvl doc or MA couldn't attack him due to PvP bracket... This is exactly what this change should fix. That doc shouldn't be able to help that agent!
Stronger? yeah, they are using so "superior" forces that they can't even attack him due to they are too high... pffff

If this guy had high level people on his own side, they could have come and engaged that doc and kept him from healing the agent. Apparently he didn't, or else his high level friends didn't support him. Either way, the enemy was stronger. There were three of them and if the other two could have attacked him, even if they were 20 levels lower than they were, he'd just have been dead faster! He lived longer while he was out numbered three-to-one precisely because they couldn't attack him. That's pretty stupid in itself!

Built for them? huh?? isn't the idea that those chars should build their own controller at an ql that fits them? And to get a longer and more fun fight you need to stay in a close ql/lvl range otherwise it's just slaughter. Bringing in lvl150+ char in a fight that should be for lvl50 people is just rediculus.

Many of our members don't own the booster yet thanks to the distribution problems. Therefore, some of us who do have it built a base that's intended for our lower and middle level characters to fight at and build towers on to when and if they get their own copies.

Nothing is stopping the defenders from griding out (or before the grid in) and getting those buffs themself. But generaly so will the attackers be better buffed the defenders since they haven't spent 15 buffing before the surprise attack.

How's this sound. I'll attack your base. But instead of gridding in and buffing at your own controller, you have to grid in, grid out, exit the grid in a city, wait for your other friends to arrive there (probably gridding several times as well), wait to get buffed, then go through the grid again. You'll be zoning six times, minimum, and it will probably take you 20 minutes to do all that zoning, waiting, and coordinating.

I bet you that in 15 minutes your undefended base (all the defenders are two zones away getting buffs) will be destroyed.

So you want to wipe out a defending lvl75 orgs teams in 5 sec with lvl200 chars?

No that change was very much needed, esp in a tower senario where you have to stay and defend and can't just run if you see a blod red player come running.

I didn't say that was what I wanted, I said that this discussion wouldn't even apply if the rules hadn't been changed. Personally I think the limits should be 125 for players, and 175 for towers, for title 6 characters, but that's just me.

But there is one problem though... QL150 controllers... they are attackable by a very large level span.. Some off the defenders (if they are high level) can't attack some of the attackers due to the PvP bracket and viseversa.... What to do about that I have no idea.

This is a huge balance problem and I hope it gets a lot of attention. Towers under ql 201 are way too weak, especially the ones over ql 150 that level 200 players can currently attack.

[Dhurdahl]

Originally posted by Nalissa

...

If we decide that a lvl 20 guild has a basic right to be able to destroy Ql10 towers, then we might as well take the organizations out of the picture, and just place various towers around the landscape for people to destroy. That seems a trifle silly to me.

...

"Wimp guild has declared war on your tower. They did not declare war on you as a guild, just your tower. Prepare to watch as your tower defends itself. You will not be able to defend as it has been determined that defending your own towers is unfair to weak helpless attackers that had no clue whatsoever who they were attacking."


LOL I hope you can see the humor in this.

Remember that FC has to cater for non Uber orgs also, aka those with members in the 1-80 range only, or even 1-40. Those kinds of orgs would never be able to own an area in your senario.
NW is a great way of getting more people to start PvP, but it has to allow for the beginners to do so without beeing slaughtered.
As it is today it isn't fun to try to build a controller without the support from highlevel chars in the org, and that is just sad and very counter productive!

Why would a high level org have any business at all placing ql10 towers in the first place? Those belongs to orgs with members in that level range and no one else.

Just beeing in a huge and high level guild doesn't give you the right to own everything by default. One has to remember that there are other player in the game also.



Wimp guild? Oh now thats a bit too much Uberism for my taste..

Humor? no humor in that.

[Dhurdahl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jynne
Many of our members don't own the booster yet thanks to the distribution problems. Therefore, some of us who do have it built a base that's intended for our lower and middle level characters to fight at and build towers on to when and if they get their own copies.[QUOTE]

Ah, sorry missunderstood you there. (of course you can build them in that case... )

How's this sound. I'll attack your base. But instead of gridding in and buffing at your own controller, you have to grid in, grid out, exit the grid in a city, wait for your other friends to arrive there (probably gridding several times as well), wait to get buffed, then go through the grid again. You'll be zoning six times, minimum, and it will probably take you 20 minutes to do all that zoning, waiting, and coordinating.I bet you that in 15 minutes your undefended base (all the defenders are two zones away getting buffs) will be destroyed.

Yepp, wont be time for the perfect buffing... in short... grab whatevery you can get in 5min and in you go. (One point though.... most, at least those from a mission, would want to save before jumping in right?) Aka, setup a gathering point where everyone goes at an attack.

Some tactics could be applied though... depending on the number of avail chars... aka some grid in a do delaying tactics while the others buff...

One suggestion that have floated around is that there should be a 5 min delay after using a shield neutralizer until you can attack. That would give the defenders a bit more time to react.

[Jynne]

Dhurdahl, being over level 150 doesn't make you uber, and an org having a few 150+ members in it doesn't make it an uber guild.

My org has an average level of 65. We're mostly socializers and roleplayers; a few of us have been around a while and have leveled up. We've got under ten level 150+ characters in the org, and all of them are online at the same time once every blue moon. The fact that we have a few high level people shouldn't be turned into a disadvantage for us on our own base's ground.

I don't want to be able to attack level 50s and level 75s and such at their bases. But I do want to defend my own guildmates on our own ground. That's all. It's my org's base. I'm just as much a part of my org as someone who's lower level. Please let me fight there.

[Dudicas]

The long and short of all this is basically that yes right now occasionally you will find a situation that sucks. You will have some lowbie MP's heal pet healing the NT you are trying to blast away, or you will have some highbe doc CH'ing the MA you are swinging your beam at. But you can atleast be involved now, you can try to get someone over to take out that person outside your range.

If the proposal goes through the way it is, then you can forget about the amount of player interaction that has been going on over the past 5 or 6 days. You won't be able to do jack when someone 25 levels over the tower that is 25 levels over you is being attacked. THAT SUCKs plain and simple. So you can either deal with it sucking sometimes the way it works now, or you can have it suck completely all the time.

I agree something needs to be done, but not in the direction of the original proposal.

[_______________Hypos]

The basic problem is that AO, by design, is a game where players of all levels intermingle. As such, there is no reasonable way to protect chars from other chars their level that have been in some fashion "boosted" by high level chars. Even if we did bar high level chars from interfering directly, it would then become rule by twink. Whichever guild got their alts the best equipment would win. That would still result in the normal low level char not having a chance.

So, I suggest a more radical approach.

Divide the servers by level. There would be a server for every 20 levels. Any char can progress to the next server at any time by typing in a command, but once you hit the level limit for that server, you no longer gain xp for anything until you progess to the next server. And you can never, ever go back to an earlier server.

This would protect any char that wants to be protected from having to worry about the intervention of higher level chars. It would also allow any char that wishes to, to go on to a higher level server where they can be twinked to their hearts content; but they would then have to live with the intervention of unfriendly higher level chars. If you level faster than your friends, you can delay progressing to the next server all you want while you help them level.

One big, big plus of this is that every 20 levels, AO effectively becomes a new game. You get the nervousness of suddenly becoming the smallest fish in the new pond. And the excitement of suddenly having new buffs available to you and new areas open for hunting/exploring.

[Bionitrous]

I think I disagree with the proposals completely. If this means that I can't help my level 30 guildmate and have to stand by and watch him die, then this change is assinine in my estimation.

I got my levels to be able to protect my guildmates; not to stand around and watch them get slaughtered. My guild is my guild. If we recruit a prospective player, he should expect to get the support of the members he has joined. I can tell you right now, that 80% of the members in my guild I would absolutely have to stand by and watch die without being able to help.

This proposal sounds just wronger and wronger the more I think of it. If all those 120's who want to kill the 120's in my guild have a problem with me at 180 helping out my friends, then perhaps they should enlist some people of the appropriate level to help them in the conquest that they embark upon. If they lose to our 15 120's and 4 180's, then maybe they will have to choose a different complex to attack. All guild rosters are available on the AO website for them to consider before making an attack. I sincerely hope that there aren't people who simply attack another guild's installation just because they can without weighing the risks and coming up with a battle plan.

I don't see any issue at all with how the combat is set up now. One of the nice things about the tower wars that we have seen set in motion is the formation of alliances and friendships between orgs. The proposed crowd control change which will deport supporting non-guildies and this change which will make protection pacts often quite useless fly in the face of the new sense of mini-communities that has emerged.

I have a brother much younger than me who is just starting college. What is being proposed is analogous to not allowing me to kick the guy's ass who beat him up in the hallway simply because I'm 'too old'. I should let him lie bloody on the floor while his assailant laughs at me.

[____________Jannerik]

I just want a pvpflag on everyone who initiates an attack (on player or tower) for 30 minutes to prevent gashogging/zoning.

Regards,
Jannerik

[Gibbet1]

Well CZ, all i can say is that its a real stinker of a problem!

Whatever way you do it, if you do it at all, will create some kind of problem, or backlash, so I don't really envy you the job

The only request i would make, is that if you do change things, please, please, please, do it in such a way that it doesn't make the lag problems in game any worse

I have to agree with Jynne, that I'm already somewhat hacked of with nerf em wars.

Can FC please try to fix the lag issues, todays patch has helped, but its still pretty bad

And it all seemed to start going wrong big time with 14.6 14.7 made it much worse

Pleaase don't give us more lag???????

And yes Jynne i know my sig says about the PvP, but, i haven't changed it since before NW, but will

[______________Nelida]

I agree with Jynne completely.

Originally posted by Jynne
I'll emphasize it again.

You should always be able to defend your own towers against any attackers, regardless of your level. If you are in your guild's area, you should be able to attack anyone of any level whose 'side' according to the suppression gas would aggro your towers. You should be able to heal and buff anyone of any level whose 'side' is considered friendly to your towers.

Otherwise this level-bracket limitation on helping your friends plays out as a major and unfair advantage to attackers, and turns leveling into a liability.

[______________Nelida]

Actually while I agree with Jynne there is a point here that would be nice...

First 5 or even 10 min 'grace period' after a shield is disrupted is a good idea.

Second the time after a shield is disrupted appears to be WAY too long (I don't know what it actually is) and promotes false alarms and defenders standing around for long periods of time doing mostly nothing.

Originally posted by Dhurdahl


Yepp, wont be time for the perfect buffing... in short... grab whatevery you can get in 5min and in you go. (One point though.... most, at least those from a mission, would want to save before jumping in right?) Aka, setup a gathering point where everyone goes at an attack.

Some tactics could be applied though... depending on the number of avail chars... aka some grid in a do delaying tactics while the others buff...

One suggestion that have floated around is that there should be a 5 min delay after using a shield neutralizer until you can attack. That would give the defenders a bit more time to react.

[_____________Nalissa]

Originally posted by Dhurdahl


Remember that FC has to cater for non Uber orgs also, aka those with members in the 1-80 range only, or even 1-40.

Catering to all clientelle involves giving a lower level character a reason to level. A game without challenge is by definition no longer a game. Where is the challenge if a level 1 character can play with all the ability and force (and possibly even greater ability) than a level 200 character? Kinda makes you lose motivation, doesn't it? If a level 20 character can rip down the tower of a level 200 character without retaliation from that level 200 character, then there is no longer a point in leveling is there?

You want your dessert before dinner, and eventually you're going to make yourself sick on too much of it.

BTW, sorry if you took offense to the 'wimp guild' characterization. I like to flush out the motivations of the detractors from the get-go, and plugging at their inferiority complex is a great way to get them to reveal themselves

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Hypos
The basic problem is that AO, by design, is a game where players of all levels intermingle. As such, there is no reasonable way to protect chars from other chars their level that have been in some fashion "boosted" by high level chars. Even if we did bar high level chars from interfering directly, it would then become rule by twink. Whichever guild got their alts the best equipment would win. That would still result in the normal low level char not having a chance.

So, I suggest a more radical approach.

Divide the servers by level. There would be a server for every 20 levels. Any char can progress to the next server at any time by typing in a command, but once you hit the level limit for that server, you no longer gain xp for anything until you progess to the next server. And you can never, ever go back to an earlier server.

This would protect any char that wants to be protected from having to worry about the intervention of higher level chars. It would also allow any char that wishes to, to go on to a higher level server where they can be twinked to their hearts content; but they would then have to live with the intervention of unfriendly higher level chars. If you level faster than your friends, you can delay progressing to the next server all you want while you help them level.

One big, big plus of this is that every 20 levels, AO effectively becomes a new game. You get the nervousness of suddenly becoming the smallest fish in the new pond. And the excitement of suddenly having new buffs available to you and new areas open for hunting/exploring.

And you split my org across a bunch of different servers and completely destroy interaction between players.

Every member in my org helps each other. Not just shooting stuff. People pass their old items down to lower level players when they upgrade. We give loot we can't use to someone who can, instead vendor trashing it. We act like an organization, ya know. Split everyone across servers according to level and you've just destroyed my org.

And as for interaction between players, what happens to people like GSP? Because they're a different level than me, I can't hang out with them in the Reet? Player weddings? Wife on server 100-130, hubby on server 70-100. Some people might wish their significant other was in another dimension at times, but I doubt on this one

All for the sake of PvP? No way

[_______________edict]

Originally posted by Jynne
The problem is, Edict, that if you limit it to the LC areas all you do is ensure that the attacking people have high level outside buffs, and the defending people don't.

Why? Because the attacking people can get a soldier friend, a doctor friend, an enforcer friend, or a fixer friend to stand at the edge of the LC area, or whatever assembly point they have, and buff them. But the defending people need to, umm, be defending their base. Inside the LC area. So the defenders, inside their own assembly area - aka their base - can't get the same buffs.

This is very true, something I hadn't thought of. And people standing on the PvP borders is bad enough as we all know! Our wars often turn out just being a chat, because the attackers have all lined up on the PvP border

Soo what is the solution? Ban healing people outside of your PvP limit only? (IMHO, its the outside healing which is the worst)

Remove from the NCU of each attacker/defender any buff which has come from a high level player? How the heck do you know that?