Proposed design: If you can't be attacked, you can't assist with buffs and healing

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Jynne
So far most of the proposals to help low level combats have amounted to nerfs of high level characters.

This would create a contradictory game mechanic: In order to become stronger, you must level. But if you are high level, you must be weakened.

If high level people were prevented from interfering in low level battles, there'd be very little point to attaining higher levels. It wouldn't give you an advantage over people who haven't advanced, it would just make you always be fighting people within the same relative "strength percentage" as yourself, using bigger numbers.

So why advance? Why have levels at all? Levels aren't fair.

Drop the level restrictions in tower PvP. High level players outside the level range would be PvP off until they performed a hostile action (buffing someone currently involved in Tower PvP is aiding the enemy and hostile in my boook). When they buff they become PvP active anywhere on Rubi-ka for 1 gametime hour but unable to initiate an attack against a lower level. Towers themselves remain under the current level restrictions, aka no level 200 that heals a level 50 ma can now wail on the level 50 tower the tower for kicks.

Also something would be needed to encourage the higher level and larger orgs to help protect the lower level ones. Alliance systems to notify allies your org is under attack. Providing Maybe some other benefits, outside those skill boost the towers give, to encourage things.

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Warlock

Gonna be a lot of people peeved about paying for content they cant use unless they do x/y/z first - just as you are suggesting I need to do x/y/z to have a chance in tower wars

Honestly, I was not pleased to see that some of the towers I was considering require Psychology and Nano Programming skills. Both of which are dark blue for me.

I fail to see how non-correct-level involvment is perceived as a nerf.

I think that one definition of a nerf would be "removal of an existing capability". Under that definition, this is a nerf.

Warlock, did you see my level scaling idea? I was hoping to get your opinion on that. Under that idea, the high level chars wouldn't be locked out of low level fights; but they would be brought down to a point where you could fight them and still have a chance. You'd need superior numbers, but you'd still have a chance.

[Jynne]

I understand your point now, Hypos... but I still question if it could be made to work in a way that's worthwhile. For example...

What happens to my nano pool and health pool and evades when I go into that low level combat? Do I remain a 7.5k hp character with evades three to six times as high as a level 50's attack rating? Obviously I'd be in no danger of dying from them then, even if I just blitzed to the controller and started taking shots at it with three of their turrets firing on me too.

What happens to my equipment and implants? Do my base stats all get nerfed down and OE all my armor? If it doesn't, how is a level 50 character supposed to overcome my 4200 unbuffed ACs? Does my weapon OE? If it doesn't, is it more fair to let me plink level 50s with a 100% functional ql 200 MCS at 300 attack rating, than at 750 attack rating? Aren't they gonna be dead either way?

The sad fact is, like with all online games, AO has its haves and its have-nots. If you cut out the high level characters, their twinks will take over, and the untwinked people like Warlock will have even less of a chance, because they can't get high level help like the twinks always did.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Dudicas


Nah, I'd be pretty damn stoked that I had a reason to go level again so I would have some IP to put into my tradeskills. Just like you should be happy you have a reason to go level now, to face the twinkmonster alts that are going to be swarming your bases cause you don't want help from higher level people that would willingly come to your aid. Well atleast would have before this thread.

Actually I dont think you would be 'stoked' look at the complaints from Traders/Engineers about the tradeskill reqs of the towers. In my 'tradeskill booster' example I'm thinking of skill you wont be able to reach at the appropriate level unless you are one fo the 'tradeskill classes' it wouldnt be a simple case if jusr raising a couple of skills here and there, in that same way you guys are suggesting I need to either join or become uber guild, or get level 200 just to counter the high levels present at a low level battle

Theres nothing I hate more than having to repeat myself but

If I have a level 60 tower, your suggesting I level up beyond the level 60 PvP range just to counter the high level that will come to the aid of the level 60's attacking it - who does that leave to defend against the level 60 players then (oh some other person I see - easy to say when your in a large guild)? So we're back to me having to have a huge guild level spread again - totally pointless. Just make the whole thing high level only and be done with it since the lower levels are just avatars for high level powers, what the low levels are no longer factors into it.

Its not that I dont _want_ help, it thats I shouldnt _require_ higher level help (I would need _same level_ help anyway since we are a small guild - and I just know what kind of response I'm gonna get for saying that "Well you'd lose it anyway" etc etc), but sure want to give me another reason not to bother, I'll add it to my list

If the twinkmonster alts cant be outside healed then its a fair fight (fair in that I could be just as twinked, or could have just-as-twink guildmates). This is about level pure and simple. You lot still seem to fail to understand that I dont mind losing a tower fair and square (be it because I am off line or genuinely beaten, its when I cant do anything out the outside interference that I take exception

People please understand this very simple fact. If you pay for something, that something should be the same as what everyone else buys. You shouldnt need to get anything else, or you should be warning people in advance before they buy it (like: This product requires uber-guild membership to use properly) otherwise I just bought another copy of AO with some fancy graphics and voice commands and a load of towers I'll never get involved in

[Dudicas]

This is an MMORPG, Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. The name itself already defines that you must interact with others in order to get ahead in this world. There does not need to be a disclaimer saying you have to have friends to survive.

[Jynne]

But Warlock, you aren't buying the Divine Right to own a base.

Nobody is.

We're buying the opportunity to build a base. We're buying the opportunity to keep that base for a given period of time.

But we're also buying the opportunity to lose that base. And to cause others to lose their bases.

And included in what we bought originally, and what we've been paying for all along, was that we bought the opportunity to advance in level and power.

Some people will get more for their money than others out of the booster. Some of us will love tower battles, some of us will hate them. Just like any game - monopoly, blackjack, counterstrike, whatever... some people enjoy it more than others. Some people win. Some people lose.

When buying any game, online or offline, computer or board, we aren't buying the inalienable right to have fun with that item.

We are buying the opportunity to. And it isn't anyone else's problem but your own, if you don't make the most of that opportunity. Be responsible for yourself.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Jynne
But Warlock, you aren't buying the Divine Right to own a base.

Nobody is.

We're buying the opportunity to build a base. We're buying the opportunity to keep that base for a given period of time.

But we're also buying the opportunity to lose that base. And to cause others to lose their bases.

And included in what we bought originally, and what we've been paying for all along, was that we bought the opportunity to advance in level and power.

Some people will get more for their money than others out of the booster. Some of us will love tower battles, some of us will hate them. Just like any game - monopoly, blackjack, counterstrike, whatever... some people enjoy it more than others. Some people win. Some people lose.

When buying any game, online or offline, computer or board, we aren't buying the inalienable right to have fun with that item.

We are buying the opportunity to. And it isn't anyone else's problem but your own, if you don't make the most of that opportunity. Be responsible for yourself.

Add the word 'equal' in before you say opportnity and we are singing off the same sheet, all the other games you mention are all _fair_ and the 'better' player generally wins (although luck is always a factor), what we have at the moment is, the people who have the highest level characters wins - thats not something you can _buy_. If it came with the pack I wouldnt be having this discussion

Dudicas - for the last time! This _isnt_ about wanting to do everything on my own!!!. As I said before I accept (and will need) support from others _of the same level range_ but requiring high level players for any and all tower actions is just unacceptable

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Warlock


Add the word 'equal' in before you say opportnity and we are singing off the same sheet, all the other games you mention are all _fair_ and the 'better' player generally wins (although luck is always a factor), what we have at the moment is, the people who have the highest level characters wins - thats not something you can _buy_. If it came with the pack I wouldnt be having this discussion

Dudicas - for the last time! This _isnt_ about wanting to do everything on my own!!!. As I said before I accept (and will need) support from others _of the same level range_ but requiring high level players for any and all tower actions is just unacceptable

The opportunity to level came with AO.

Well, except for patch 12.6

EDIT - okay, hasty response, because I wanted to get the 12.6 zinger out there.

What I'm trying to say is this... the simpler and less restrictive - and therefore, less exploitable - the rules are, the more fun that most people will have with the game. Honestly, I want two things from the system:

1. I want to be able to defend my guild on my own ground. I want to heal my guildmates and shoot people who are tresspassin' on mah propurtee.

2. I want to win, and lose, battles based on my skill as a player and my character's abilities. Not based on the exploitation of a set of level bracket rules and crowd control rules.

I know you agree with #2. I hope you can at least see the logic of #1.

I have proposed all along that by applying level brackets to attackers, but not defenders, will be the fairest possible solution to this dilemma for all people involved. It protects your guild from being overrun by people with high level support to the extent that you say you want - just no healing during the battle, basically - without keeping people like me or Dudicas from defending our own guildmates and investments at our own bases.

It means that while a low level guild can be attacked by twinks, high level people can't help the twinks on the attack. The low level guild has a good chance of winning.

But if a low level guild of twinks attacks a spread-leveled guild's base, all the members of that guild can help to fight them off - giving the opportunity for other high levels to come and try to fight against the high level defenders, too.

Do you see the wisdom?

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Jynne

What happens to my ...

Of course what I posted already isn't the whole story. You're right, there are plenty more questions. I also understand that it would likely be very difficult to program and might get thrown out just for that. But I like that a couple people are entertaining the idea.

First, there's the question of just what does it mean to be scaled from level 200 down to level 70. This is a hard question to answer. And let me emphasize that I don't expect it to be perfect. So before you nit pick it to death, I already yeild that.

I think we need to look at various twinked out chars and see what the attack rating/damage per hit/attack speed/run speed and such are at the target levels, in this case levels 70 and 200. Then we can provide a scaling factor to each of those abilities that will bring a 200 enf down to a 70 enf and a 200 agent down to a 70 agent.

Ok, to try to detail this out a bit more... This is, of course, quite complicated... Please be gentle on my example numbers - I'm making them all up without really trying to make sure they're realistic.

From here on, I'm assuming a QL50 land control area, so the level 200 chars are all being reduced to roughly equate to level 70.

Lets say level 50 A_enf is fighting level 200 B_enf. B_enf is being scaled down to level 75. Making up numbers, let's say a twinked level 200 enf has a run speed of 800 and a level 70 has a base run speed of 100. Then B_enfs run speed is divided by 8. If B_enf has a run speed of 816, it get scaled down to 102. So if a given char is a little better or a little worse than our "twinked" example, he'll still be a little better or worse after scaling. This is important - chars won't all have the same stats after being scaled. His evades will be similary scaled. If a level 70 enf has 300 evade and a level 200 has 800 evade, then B_enf's evade will be multiplied by 3/8.

We'll have to do the same thing with nukes and heals. If a level 200 NT nukes for an average of 2.5k and a level 70 NT nukes for an average of 600, then nuke damage for a level 200 NT would be multiplied by 6/25. Heals would be similarly reduced.

Let's say a twinked out level 200 enf has 12k health and a level 70 enf has 6k. This would mean that any of the reduced damage that hits this enf would be doubled as it is applied to him. Any heals would also be doubled. So a level 50 char attacking him would do double the normal PvP damage, and a level 50 healer would do double his normal heals.

Let's say a level 200 doc debuffs init for -1452 over 155sec and a level 70 doc debuffs init for -908 over 103sec. Then the doc's debuff would be scaled by 908/1452 and the duration would be scaled by 103/155.

I'm not pretending this is simple to do. But I think it would be a great thing to implement.

[Tiggy]

What would happen to inits in scaling?

For example would someone with a ql200 ELLTS suddenly find themselves with massive unwanted negative inits, or would those with a TIM scope be laying down overwhelming fire power?

Crits and crit buffs that they may or may not be using.

What happens when a lvl200 shows up and you end up fighting both simultaneously do your heals know when to be scaled and when to work properly?

Interesting idea but too many nasty little problems with no straight forward answer.

Tiggy

[__________Typothetae]

Warlock! Good work!

I must say that I commend you for your sticking to your guns amidsts the vocal majority on this thread. I disagree with Cz's proposal that started this thread. But, I completely agree with your views on level-base content.

It is amazing to see so many focusing this debate on so-called 'nerfing' and accusing those who support appropriate, level-based content of being supporters of a 'weaker is better' mentality. That is totally unfair. And I bet that those who are making these claims have made their own 'nerf' proposals in the past. In regards to the main issue that started this thread, I have not proposed any sort of nerf, unless you consider being PvP tagged a Nerf!

The only truly important issue here is "WHAT WILL MAKE THE GAME MORE FUN!"

Cz pointed out that the majority of the people who play AO are not high level. Jynne, for some reason, believes that Cz is mistaken. Why, Jynne? Do you really believe that FC doesn't have a pretty firm grasp on the chars people are playing? I seriously doubt that. FC isn't looking at the 'People of Rubi-Ka' database. They know your username and all your alts. And they know your time /played.

So, everyone should understand that the only solution FC will consider will be one that is not lopsided toward high level players. So, you high-level players, keep the suggestions coming that solve the problem, and refrain from suggestions that make you look like a power-mongering ganker. Otherwise you will be ignored by the people who are deciding this issue. [Not me. The people who tell the coders what to do....]

So, elimate the following positions...they are too extreme:
1) I should be able to defend any base that my org built
2) I should be able to attack anyone who attacks a base that my org built.

Every single one of you understands these positions. And, think back to when you started playing AO. Didn't you support the idea of level-appropriate content then?

Even Jynne was willing to consider closing the PvP participation a bit. Didn't you mention a 75 level spread, Jynne? That is moving toward constructive solutions. That is good. That is a 'nerf' Jynne, in a way, but a potentially constuctive one. Keep it up.

Many of you have suggested solutions to these issues. I have found most of them to be overly complicated. But, many of them have a lot of merit. [This is a complicated game, I don't expect a solution has to be simple.]

From the information I had on NW prior to release, I am quite surprised at some of the current issues. Frankly, I am surprised that higher-levels have so much influence on lower-level land control. I expected level-appropriate land control that players of all levels had a chance to participate in. NW is a hit with me, but I really believe that lower levels are not getting what they bargained for. And, I believe FC will fix this. So, lets keep the good suggestions of 'How to fix this' coming.

I hope that FC does not implement restrictions on nano-assist before they see the results of their Crowd Control efforts.

[___________Graukonig]

Even with the proposed restriction a player with a high level character can still take part in low lvl defense ( caution spoiler ) by switching to a low lvl alt( SURPRISE ).

I would much rather face a twinked alt than a twinked alt with a high lvl character healing him and that goes for either attack or defense. And this is for the obvious reason that in one case I have a chance( especially with debuff towers ) and in the other I have no chance.

No one is asking for the absolute right to have a base. But what some are asking is for not having to face higher lvl characters when they are attacking or defending. If I lose a base while I wasn't in the game that sucks but I'll be ok with it. If I lose my base to superior force of equal lvl to myself well then good job to them. However if I lose base or an attack fails because there were a few high lvl characters on the other team I will most certainly be very annoyed.

The bottom line is that if help from outside the PvP lvl restriction is allowed, for either attack or defense, the importance of lower lvl characters is sharply reduced. The propose restriction does not hurt players with high lvl characters as much as a lack of one hurt casual players. Since the former with likely have a low lvl alt or be able to powerlvl and twink one out. However the latter obviously doesn't have the option of switching over to higher lvl alt to counter the high lvl opposition.

EDIT to make post more constructive:
I support the idea of applying the current PvP restriction to LC combat and including a restriction on heal and buffs. The buff restriction should work by wiping all buffs outside a certain QL range when a character enters a LC area with special consideration for pet classes.

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Tiggy

What would happen to inits in scaling?

It might not be necessary to do anything. The goal is to make the high level char have the effectiveness of the level you're trying to scale him to. Since most level 70 chars fight at 1/1 and level 200 chars fight at 1/1, it may not be necessary to scale inits. If level 70 chars aren't fighting at 1/1 then an adjustment may be necessary.

For example would someone with a ql200 ELLTS suddenly find themselves with massive unwanted negative inits, or would those with a TIM scope be laying down overwhelming fire power?

Crits and crit buffs that they may or may not be using.

posted by Tiggy

What happens when a lvl200 shows up and you end up fighting both simultaneously do your heals know when to be scaled and when to work properly?

This is an easy one. Damage and heals work the same way. When the damage/heal is caused it is scaled by the scaling factor of the attacker/caster. Then it is scaled by the factor of the defender/recipient. If a level 200 doc healed a level 200 char, the heal would be scaled down, then scaled right back up again. There might be a rounding error, but the end result should be very close to what it started at.

posted by Tiggy

Interesting idea but too many nasty little problems with no straight forward answer.

This may be true. I don't pretend it would be easy to do it right. It may be that a "good enough" position could be found that's far simpler. Like maybe just scaling damage and not worrying about attack speed or something like that.

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Typothetae

The only truly important issue here is "WHAT WILL MAKE THE GAME MORE FUN!"

In my opinion, the most fun will be if everyone can participate. The low level chars should not be irrelevant, but the high level chars should not be locked out. If we can accomplish that then everyone wins.

posted by Typothetae

So, elimate the following positions...they are too extreme:
1) I should be able to defend any base that my org built
2) I should be able to attack anyone who attacks a base that my org built.

The thing is that when you lock out chars, you're moving in the "not fun" direction. I still hope that we can avoid this. Let the high level chars have fun, too.

You're right, any proposed solution to the current problem is going to be an added complexity to an already complicated game. But I'd still like to try to let everyone have fun.

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Graukonig

Even with the proposed restriction a player with a high level character can still take part in low lvl defense ( caution spoiler ) by switching to a low lvl alt( SURPRISE ).

This is, of course, true. However, it is every bit as insensitive as the assertion that the lower level char should just level up. Not all high level chars have alts in every possible low level range. Personally, I want to play my main right now, not spend time on my alts.

posted by Graukonig

But what some are asking is for not having to face higher lvl characters when they are attacking or defending.

How about if the high level chars are not at full strength? If you're level 50 fighting in a QL50 area, you're still going to have to fight level 60 and 70 chars because they're in your PvP range. In the level scaling idea I posted earlier, anyone higher level than the QL of the area, would be scaled down. In this example, a level 200 would be scaled down to 70. A 70 would be scaled down to 53 or so. A level 50 or under char would stay as they are. You'd still have to face chars of higher level than you, but they wouldn't be so all powerful that you wouldn't have a chance.

This would let the high level chars have fun, too. They'd still be more powerful than the level 50 guys, but not insurmountably so. Everyone gets to participate and have a chance to make a difference. Everyone gets to have fun.

[Snuble]

To beat it in one more time.

• The typical org in AO is not the +300 Uberguild
• The typical org in AO is not the All between 1 an 50 guild
• The typical org in AO is not the must be lvl 150 guild

The typical org in AO, and those representing 75% of the active and guilded playerbase of this game is in a large or medium org (above 75 toons) consists of players of all levels.

Level lock on tower battles will leave most of the mid level orgs without chance to defend ANY tower at all.

And more then a few orgs will only be able to defend their *alt* towers. That is the towers that you Warlock want to have. And that leaves the high level players of that org with three choices.

• Leave their org and join a high level org
• Try to take a high level area from a high level org and hold it
• Keep out of tower battles

AO is already turning in the *must join a 50 member raid to obtain items* game, I hate to see that happen, and to lock the high level game even more, and a part of the game that has always been lacking in content even more is a shame.


For anyone that think I base my arguments on guesses, take a look at the number I posted a few page back. You can't argue with raw numbers. Or at lease, you would have to be *very* narrow minded.

[____________Jannerik]

After thinking about your ideas 3 times i'm proud to announce that it is now Jannerik-approved. Go go go do it, Cz!

Regards,
Jannerik

[Jynne]

Of course, once Warlock and Typothetae start getting massacred by the twink guilds, and the alt/feeder guilds for high level guilds, they'll be in here again whining about that.

Let's make AO into your little race to be the weakest. The contest of the best exploiter. So why should the slippery slope stop with screwing over mid-level, mid-sized, unevenly distributed organizations?

Why not screw over Warlock's org in favor of subway characters? They have the same right to own land don't they?

The bottom line is this. The average new player is going to level up rather than work on building bases. And why not? It's easy to level; they'd outlevel their bases in no time flat. A few new players might be really, really interested in it. That's great. But are they going to form their own guilds specifically to it? I doubt that.

They're going to join guilds like mine, or Snublefot's. And then your ideas here will be cutting them out of the tower play just as assuredly as if all the towers in their level range were owned by uberguilds. Good going! Let's cut everyone not in an uberguild out of the Notum Wars if they aren't like Warlock or Typothetae!

At least I'm trying to leave a path for low level guilds to participate, but you "nerf the mid levelers" people are trying to ensure that only the uber, or the noober, are able to play Notum Wars. And we all know you'll never stop with the 'nerf high levels' and 'crowd control superior forces away' cries until a 6 person team of level 60s can defeat a 30-person organization with people ranging between level 40 and 180.

You make me sick.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Jynne
Of course, once Warlock and Typothetae start getting massacred by the twink guilds, and the alt/feeder guilds for high level guilds, they'll be in here again whining about that.

Let's make AO into your little race to be the weakest. The contest of the best exploiter. So why should the slippery slope stop with screwing over mid-level, mid-sized, unevenly distributed organizations?

Why not screw over Warlock's org in favor of subway characters? They have the same right to own land don't they?

The bottom line is this. The average new player is going to level up rather than work on building bases. And why not? It's easy to level; they'd outlevel their bases in no time flat. A few new players might be really, really interested in it. That's great. But are they going to form their own guilds specifically to it? I doubt that.

They're going to join guilds like mine, or Snublefot's. And then your ideas here will be cutting them out of the tower play just as assuredly as if all the towers in their level range were owned by uberguilds. Good going! Let's cut everyone not in an uberguild out of the Notum Wars if they aren't like Warlock or Typothetae!

At least I'm trying to leave a path for low level guilds to participate, but you "nerf the mid levelers" people are trying to ensure that only the uber, or the noober, are able to play Notum Wars. And we all know you'll never stop with the 'nerf high levels' and 'crowd control superior forces away' cries until a 6 person team of level 60s can defeat a 30-person organization with people ranging between level 40 and 180.

You make me sick.

You really havent bothered to read a single word I typed have you?

All your interested in is ensuring you can muscle in on tower action regardless of the level range or your level

In that case, make all towers 150+ and refund everyone who purchased the booster, since you argue no low levels are going to bother since the mission treadmill is so much more interesting.

I dont know how much simpler I can explain it to you - I sure there isnt another way, its the fact you just dont want to be cut out of any action that you think your entitled to participate in, regardless of level. I'm suprised your not pushing harder the ability to attack anyone at any level in the game while in a tower zone (or hell any zone for that matter), because thats just gives them more incentive to level up to compete with you right? they will be queuing up to thank you for charging them extra for that opportunity

Ask to be let in the subway while your at it, I mean those guys in there would rather be levelling up in missions to be your level anyway, wouldnt like to think theres some action your main character cant get at (you may have guild mates in there being killed by the nasty boss man - go teach him a lesson too)

If I get demolished by twinks of the right level - thats fine, THEY WERE THE RIGHT LEVEL! At least I can hit them, they take damage and they dont insta-heal back to full health as I watch!

It just looks like your guild dont have sufficient numbers of any given single range to adequately defend a base or that level, and you're just looking for a way to cover this deficiency regardless of how many other players get screwed over because of out outside interference (which your not bothered about because you believe they all bought the game/booster to level up and be uber like you.)

Your younger brother/sister gets in a fight with someone their own age, and you want to go a smack the crap out of them - how very brave of you, I'm sure its will be a glorious one-sided encounter

This is all summed up very easily

Go pick on someone your own size

[my apologies to other people reading this thread - but my patients has expired with certain individuals here]

[__________Typothetae]

Originally posted by Jynne
Of course, once Warlock and Typothetae start getting massacred by the twink guilds, and the alt/feeder guilds for high level guilds, they'll be in here again whining about that.

Let's make AO into your little race to be the weakest. The contest of the best exploiter. So why should the slippery slope stop with screwing over mid-level, mid-sized, unevenly distributed organizations?

Jynne, apparently you are not reading my posts. Originally, we were on the same side of this issue. We both disagreed with Cz's proposed fix. You accuse me of whining. What have I whined about? Go ahead, quote me.

You are the one that wants to 'nerf' those who attack bases. You want defenders to have a better chance. Now, it may be a good idea in the name of balance and fun to make some changes to the rules regarding attacking and defending. But, why don't you put yourself in your silly 'weaker is better' category. Don't put me there.

Why do you label me as believing 'weaker is better?' You may label me as believing that 'Balance and Fun' are better. And, actually we have both been on the same side of that issue before. Why don't you admit that you believe that balance is important? Why are you so busy labelling people who disagree with you?

Originally posted by Jynne
At least I'm trying to leave a path for low level guilds to participate, but you "nerf the mid levelers" people are trying to ensure that only the uber, or the noober, are able to play Notum Wars. And we all know you'll never stop with the 'nerf high levels' and 'crowd control superior forces away' cries until a 6 person team of level 60s can defeat a 30-person organization with people ranging between level 40 and 180.
You make me sick. [/B]

Who are you criticizing with this quote Jynne. Who makes you sick? Me? I have not seen anyone who appears to be 'out to get the mid levelers.' Sure, some of the suggestions might have unintended consequences, and exploring those possibilities are the reason these forums exist.

I am in a medium-to-large size guild with a wide level range. We are actually one of the strongest orgs on R-K. I am hoping this issue is resolved without limiting participation for anyone in our org. However, changes will be made. So, what are the best changes for the most people in my org? Answer: ones that add to the balance and to the fun.

Your rants against an imiginary foe are not helping get to a solution. Why are you trying to drown out reasonable views with your groundless accusations? That is not helping your org, nor is it helping mine.

So, Jynne, I would appreciate if you would quit trying to split this discussion into two imaginary camps. You believe in balance. You believe in level-based content. Just admit that!

If you won't admit that now, when did you change your tune? When you passed level 160? level 150? Level 100?