Proposed design: If you can't be attacked, you can't assist with buffs and healing

[Dudicas]

Originally posted by Warlock

At that point you may as well save everyone alot of hassle and remove the low level players (since they are not actually making a difference), put the tower level up to that of the high level players (or get rid of them completely) and make it a free for all.

ITS NOT ABOUT THE TOWERS! It's org versus org, the towers are just the center of command and the method by which battle is declared. Get that through your head if you want to see the big picture. Otherwise you will never enjoy Notum Wars no matter how they nerf the battles.

And again I must emphasize you are fighting the organization, not their towers. This is not a game of battleship, where you win if you sink all my ships. Its a game of capture the flag, where you win only if you take my base from me and my team without us pummeling you back out of our territory.

[Jynne]

Warlock, you are ignoring the fact that the attackers have the time to check out their enemy's base, what level it is, what level characters the enemy's guild has in it, and plan ahead of time who they will bring and what they will do.

The defenders won't know who's going to attack them, won't know what level they are, and won't be able to plan ahead of time who they will bring or what they will do.

Bearing that in mind, look at this situation. You have an attacking force, and a defending force. You have a set of rules governing crowd control and character level interaction. Both the attacking force and the defending force know these rules. However, only the attacking force will ever be reasonably able to 'work the rules' to an advantage.

If the same rules apply both to defender and attacker, then the attacker, who has time to work out how to exploit the rules while the defender doesn't, always has an advantage.

That's why I'm proposing that different rules apply to attackers and defenders - and while I think my proposal of letting anyone defend anything their guild owns is the only way to do it that won't ruin the rest of the game, such as PvM. Maybe someone can come up with better; I would like to see someone trying to develop a system that protects lower level play without screwing over the people like in orgs like mine - and there are more people in these types of orgs than there are uberguilders, or "lowbieguilders" for that matter.

What I am sick of seeing here is, "We're weak, so please Funcom prop us up, and beat down the people who're stronger - we deserve it because, uh, that's what's fair." You don't like that I have pointed out that, number one, I should be able to defend my guildmates and our bases, and that number two, being stronger is supposed to make you better able to win, and that number three, strength is something that we earn in this game.

You accuse me of looking out for my own interests... when I'm only doing that to the same extent as you are. I want to participate and be part of my organization without being screwed over.

"Pot to Kettle, Pot to Kettle: You're Black. Over."

[Dudicas]

/me hacks GSP and rebroadcasts in extremely amplified volume

"Pot to Kettle, Pot to Kettle: You're Black. Over"

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Warlock

My guild is the same level because it is made up of RL friends that all play together - our similar level is a result of this, nothing more.

Here we have the core issue. Your guild consists of a tightly knit group that levels together.

My guild was like that at one time, too. Eventually, some people became boored/dissatisfied with their mains and began rolling alts. The level range split as a result. The higher levels brought in more higher levels, the low levels brought in more lower levels. Some quit, some lower levels became mid-level, more higher and mid levels started alts. Some brought in the RL friends. In this way our guild became very widely spread in terms of levels. I believe this is normal. This is a result of people trying to have fun in the game as best they can.

I wish I had numbers at hand to show that your guild is a statistical fluke. You are in a pleasant situation, but you must stop pretending that your tight level range is the result of "good planning" while mine is the result of "poor planning". Both are simply the results of people trying to have fun.

Given this situation, you seek to set the game rules in such a way that will benefit you and will help you to have fun. I understand this. I also seek to have fun. Since I believe that your situation is an anomaly, I assert that your best interests should give way so that the larger number of people can have fun.

I don't pretend that your guild having to fight high level chars is fun. You should not pretend that locking my guild out of land control due to a wide spread of levels is fun. And you certainly need to give up this pretense that the level of your guild members is a result of good planning.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Dudicas


Look, my guilds average level is ~90. I am 160. We put up a 75 and a 100 tower. That is the two closest we can get to our average level. The whole point of the argument is that I shouldn't have to watch the towers that me and my guild put up be destroyed and not be able to do anything. We can't defend a level 150 any better than we could defend a level 100 if the only people allowed to defend it were those in the pvp range of it.

Get off your theoretical high-horse and look at it from the real perspective.

If your guild's average level is 60, your not going to put up a level 100 tower just because you've got 3 or 4 people over 100. Your gonna put up a 50ish, and if those 3 or 4 people can't help defend that QL50 tower, then they WILL be left out. Do you alienate and punish them because they are too high level? Do they kick out the low levels and recruit higher?

If they can't do anything that will allow people outside pvp range to be involved, then just leave it alone! The only reason that my guild would not be able to defend those 75 and 100 towers would be if the attackers brought in/got buffed/were twinked by high level characters. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY funcom can prevent any and all of that from happening. One way or another the attackers will find a loophole to take the advantage. I don't want to sit backand watch my guild get slaughtered by some twinks, when I could easily help them out and I'm even part of the reason the average level is as high as it is.

If you can't see the point we are trying to make and only want to bash our guilds "ability to plan" and make personal attacks on people like Jynne who is spending her own time and effort to voice the opinions of a great majority of the playerbase then I'm not going to be bothered with responding anymore, I'll respond when Cz gives us another set of questions or an update on how the developers have adjusted the proposal.

Dude just calm the frell down will you, not once have I made a personal attack on anyone, it seem to me that you are the only one getting hot under the collar.

IT IS ALL ABOUT THE TOWERS! Its the land control that makes these fights happen, the point is to destroy the towers and gain control of the land, how much team PvP happened before now!? Very little because other than titles there was no point.

Your point is you dont want to get left out if you're the wrong level- fine, my point I dont want my defence/offence scapped because a high level turned up and used outside buffs and there wasnt a damn thing I could do about it - if thats the case I'll have my money back now thank you very much, because it wont be fun, it wouldnt be _fair_ and it wont be worth the effort. If this doesnt change all fights will degenerate into high level buff-fests only a few location will change hands because it will all depends on how many higher/lower players are availble.

You can join in if your the wrong level, but your limited to fighting others of the wrong level who show up - a much better situation than knowling its not even worth showing up because you are bound to lose because you dont have any high levels (as in my guilds case)

Yes you are fighting the org - not the individual, but not the whole damn org (otherwise why have PvP restrictions at all) this is an exploit in my book pure and simple. If I were given the Kamikazi bot in its curent state (i.e. instakill) you would all cry nerf, despite the fact that it would be the only way I would ever manage to kill anything, what we have now is just as unbalancing

This is not theoretical its real I stood there and watched it happen last night and we couldnt even kill a single person due to the outside buffing. At this point I dont see any point so unless it changes I wont bother to build attack or defend as there simply isnt any point - it wont take long for the 'non-hardcore' to come to the same conclusions and you will be back to the situation where its only the same people attacking and defending - elitism will be the only victor in the end

Whats next, high level MOBs turning up in mission to buff low level MOBs with complete heals and uber buffs? This situation is no different yet its easy to see how stupid it is

Its a game, everyone pays the same therfore it must be fair - and to hell with how unrealistic it is.

I'm glad your done with me, I'm certainly through with you

Jynne

Under the proposed system the attacker wont have a choice of what level players to bring, and it wont matter what level ranges the defenders have availble (beyond the number of those able to defend)

If the only the defenders get 'outside help' you end up with the attackers running out of ammo/nano/health long before the defenders break a sweat. This will ruin the game for the attackers and in the end they will stop attacking you (after they have tried a few option) or contract an uberguild to do the job for them - <sarcasm> which is worth buying the booster for any day of the week </sarcasm>

This has nothing to do with being weak - If my guild build a level 60 base, bring on the attacks BUT only from people I can actually engage, dont be exploiting info from the guild lists (definately NOT realistic for those of you quoting _realism_) to see I have no high level characters to assist. Bring on your attack teams and the crowd control and outside buff restrictions will do the rest, all I am asking for is a fair chance to attack defend

[georg]

I'm completely against this proposed change,

The main issiue is a guild should ALWAYS be able to defend their towers with their members no matter who is attacking and no matter the quality of it, hence the point of notum wars is LAND control, and controlling MORE then 1 piece of land / tower ( Seeing you cant build the same type it HAS to be lower / higher ) gives a guild more and better advantages.

Dont get me wrong, I'd rather have the possibility to have 5 qal 100-250 areas, but as it is -not- possible, and there are too few of those in the game I also have to build in lower areas to get those advantages but with disadvantage decreasing quality and amount of people able to defend it.
It already is fairly easy to take out a low level base owned by a high level guild due to the pvp req and the bugged tower channels. This change would disable -any- option of defence for me for certain towers/certain people attacking, making it impossible for me to help/assist my guild mates defending the guilds base.
As a result, it would not just make me useless to my low level guildies defending our low level base, it also cuts off a bunch of my guildies from any heals when defending our level 150-200-250 bases.
The worst part is when I can not defend myself by attacking the attackers is I can't heal most of my guildies or allies anymore who can.

Having the buffs and healing changed to such an extent splits the guild in even more little groups. The PVP limit being upped was already bad guildwise. The people complaining about it were doing so regarding zones like MMD / arenas where it was a valid complaint however, mass pvp is what counts and what you need there is EVERY member of your org being able to help and participate in the battles.
After this change it will become even harder to try and keep a guild organised, sticking together as a group as it seems the game won't let you do anything anymore when you are more then a few levels apart..

As an example:
A lvl 140 doctor is a "low level" to me, yet that doctor can complete heal, cast Lifegiving elixer and such altough not attack the same high level players as I can (but the lower ones I cant), she can be a big help defending a guilds base, the high, and low ones.

Just as I can be a help to a omni guild which is mixed or mainly is low level when a few clan guilds join up on it.
(The recent Izgimmers legacy and obsidian order fights as a good example ). This all won't be possible anymore.

There are alot of guilds out there who are pretty much mixed levelwise even up to lvl 1 - 200. This change totally ruins the play for them there as their higher level members cant help their lower levels out. Almost every guild will be affected by it.

What most people only think about regarding this issiue is the image of a twinked lvl 50 player taking out a whole base + guild on his own healed by a lvl 200 doc. What people -forget- is that this (hasted) "proposal" affects much more then just that.


Note1: If I am teamed in mass pvp with a level 200 ( fairly common in a high level guild) I won't be able to heal -anyone- below 150 if pvp rules are applied, that also includes the players in my guild below 150.

Note2: About the guild<>guild relations on the same side, prepare to see the message
"Sorry , we can't help you even tho we want too. We know you're being ganged up by xx omni/clan guilds but we cant help out due to the new pvp "fix".

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Warlock
Jynne

Under the proposed system the attacker wont have a choice of what level players to bring, and it wont matter what level ranges the defenders have availble (beyond the number of those able to defend)

If the only the defenders get 'outside help' you end up with the attackers running out of ammo/nano/health long before the defenders break a sweat. This will ruin the game for the attackers and in the end they will stop attacking you (after they have tried a few option) or contract an uberguild to do the job for them - <sarcasm> which is worth buying the booster for any day of the week </sarcasm>

This has nothing to do with being weak - If my guild build a level 60 base, bring on the attacks BUT only from people I can actually engage, dont be exploiting info from the guild lists (definately NOT realistic for those of you quoting _realism_) to see I have no high level characters to assist. Bring on your attack teams and the crowd control and outside buff restrictions will do the rest, all I am asking for is a fair chance to attack defend

Under the proposed system, the attackers get to bring as many high level characters as they want to buff them.

These high level characters can sit with the low-level assault teams at the border of the LC area. They can lay on the biggest buffs that the assault team's NCU can hold, just 1 meter away from the border of your suppression gas field. If someone from the assault team gets hurt or debuffed, they can run back into the 75% zone where these high level characters will be able to heal them up and give them new buffs.

I don't see how your org is any less screwed in this scenario; in fact your org is more screwed, because if you can get some high level friends from other orgs to come... those high level friends can't help you.

Do you really think your org would have a chance when defending against an assault force running 200-point healing HoTs, 30% reflects, or 91-point damage shields? An assault force that's already had 5-10 minutes of freebie shots on your towers? That's probably already checked your roster and maybe even checked how many of you were online?

Get it yet? Attackers can - and will - get high level buffs and support from high levels in the 75% zone. Defenders can't get high level buffs and support from within the 25/5% zone - ie, from within their own base!

That's how Cz's proposal will work. You consider it an exploit... I call it "good planning."

[Darkbane]

Hmmm, all this seems to boil down to, is that most current guilds were not put together with land control in mind (which is really just stating the obvious).

I can see guilds possibly having to reconsider their rational, either they wish to partake in land control, and hence need to structure themselves accordingly (and recruit accordingly), or they can ignore it and carry on as they are.

Guild membership among the land control guilds will likely become more fluid as members seek out a guild that has activity in their level range.

Like it or not, the game has changed significantly. Now we just need to learn how to adapt.

If low level players are to partake in land control battles, some mechanism is needed to ensure they can do so on a semi-level playfield.

It may be the only other workable option is to not have low level land control areas at all...

[georg]

Get it yet? Attackers can - and will - get high level buffs and support from high levels in the 75% zone. Defenders can't get high level buffs and support from within the 25/5% zone - ie, from within their own base!

I've not even tought about that issiue, but that makes this new proposal even more pointless ( as its intend to stop this ) then all the very nasty side effects already did.

I dont see why this is such a big issiue anyway, this change being very unneeded and way off target. (Get the buffs in 75%, run back to the doc who stays in 75% to receive heal and go back again, or nt range + range increaser)

Quote: "The level 50 organisations whining about it, should do bs missions for 2-3 days and be 150+. "

Problem is I dont see any or hardly anyone complaining, mostly the 150+ people who are just busy throwing their own windows in. As this affects so much more then just the lvl 50 twink supposedly pwning a lvl 50 base + its guild while being healed by a 200 doc.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Jynne
These high level characters can sit with the low-level assault teams at the border of the LC area. They can lay on the biggest buffs that the assault team's NCU can hold, just 1 meter away from the border of your suppression gas field. If someone from the assault team gets hurt or debuffed, they can run back into the 75% zone where these high level characters will be able to heal them up and give them new buffs.

Assuming of course that the crowd control lets them......

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Warlock


Assuming of course that the crowd control lets them......

The crowd control applies to the land control area. Aka the 25% gas zone they won't be entering. So the crowd control won't ever take effect for them. And it's not as if 1 or 2 level 200s passing out good buffs is going to trigger crowd control anyway.

And even if they do enter the 25% zone, crowd control only takes effect IF the number of people in the area starts getting over 50 on either side (not very likely that a 'true newbie' guild will have 50 people in one place).

If you propose that high level people be warped away from low-level bases automatically, first I'll laugh at the huge travel nerf that would be, and second I'll laugh because they'll just buff their lower-level comrades 40 meters from your base instead of 1 meter. Or they'll buff them up in a city and load them into the fixer grid so they can pop out near your controller with their buffs. It's never exactly gonna be rocket science to figure out ways to avoid the crowd limitations.

You put way too much faith in limitations, and way too little faith in the ability of gamers to find workarounds for them. You also seem to think that high level people wouldn't be willing to help you - but guess what, they'd love to. We're all in here basically arguing that we should be allowed to help... YOU!

Edit: We're going over ground this thread has already covered, again. As long as players are allowed to buff each other without restrictions as regard levels, in any way and at any location, low-level attack forces will be able to load up on high-level buffs before they go off to assault another low-level force's base.

If you nerf buffing, at very least, inside LC areas, all you do is deny the defenders the opportunity to reasonably acquire the same buffs that the attackers have already gotten before starting the attack.

Edit 2: The crowd control's intention is to fight lag, Warlock, not force people to fight fairly with equal numbers of people or equal levels. It's just to fight lag.

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Darkbane

I can see guilds possibly having to reconsider their rational, either they wish to partake in land control, and hence need to structure themselves accordingly (and recruit accordingly), or they can ignore it and carry on as they are.

The problem with restructuring the guild is that the people involved typically either are, or become, friends. I don't like the idea of my friend feeling like he has to either continue with a char he doesn't like, or leave our group completely for another guild in order to fully experience the game. My friend should not have to gimp himself to stay in the same guild as his higher level friends.

[___________Graukonig]

For Funcom the problem is that they need to consider many types of players such as casual, RPer, and power lvler. Because of this they have restrictions on what lvls can PvP each other. For basically the same reasons they are going to have a restriction on who can help in base defense and offense. Personally I might find it was fun the first few times when I high level guild member helps me defend the 50 or 100 tower but after a while I just won't show up and would hunt instead. Whats the point in being there if the outcome is decided entirely by whether high lvl defenders show up or not. It seems that most of the people against this are high lvl players who want to protect their fun( how fun it is to beat on a low lvl player is another issue ), well perhaps they should think about how fun it will be for the low lvl players when they are made irrelevant.

[Warlock]

So......

Me (no high levels) + you (with high levels) = you win

Glorious, sign me up, charge my credit card and let the credit and time wasting begin - AO v2 has arrived

<sigh>

Horse dead - flogging futile

(yes I put faith in limitations - certainly no point putting faith in players _not_ to do this. If they cant buff in the field they will buff at the meeting point, you will _never_ stop that. The aim is to stop them getting buffed/healed during the fight. If they have to zone out, they go into disgrace, I'm assuming the 'outside buff' limitation will be based on the players PvP state and not the zone state, so there is still a 'kill window' here. If they do zone away then at least they have to stop attacking, curently they can stay in the fight AND get the buffs, anything has to be an improvement on that)

[georg]

So......

Me (no high levels) + you (with high levels) = you win

Glorious, sign me up, charge my credit card and let the credit and time wasting begin - AO v2 has arrived

<sigh>


Let me rephrase that

You ( in a guild of 10 level 100 players ) Vs Someone else (in a guild of 100 lvl 100-200 players) = ofcourse you'd loose.
Leave the 100 lvl100-200 guild to "The lemmings &co"

You put way too much faith in limitations, and way too little faith in the ability of gamers to find workarounds for them. You also seem to think that high level people wouldn't be willing to help you - but guess what, they'd love to. We're all in here basically arguing that we should be allowed to help... YOU!

Tada. Helping out omni (izgimmer / oo ) at those battles gave me and my guild alot of satisfaction, this change however makes it unable to do so.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Warlock
So......

Me (no high levels) + you (with high levels) = you win

Glorious, sign me up, charge my credit card and let the credit and time wasting begin - AO v2 has arrived

<sigh>

Horse dead - flogging futile

(yes I put faith in limitations - certainly no point putting faith in players _not_ to do this. If they cant buff in the field they will buff at the meeting point, you will _never_ stop that. The aim is to stop them getting buffed/healed during the fight. If they have to zone out, they go into disgrace, I'm assuming the 'outside buff' limitation will be based on the players PvP state and not the zone state, so there is still a 'kill window' here. If they do zone away then at least they have to stop attacking, curently they can stay in the fight AND get the buffs, anything has to be an improvement on that)

I'm not saying that that's how it should work as regards outside buffing. I'm saying that given the proposal Cz made, that's how it will work.

And I'm saying to you - since you really can't prevent attackers from getting high-level buffs before the fight unless you prevent every low level from getting high level buffs at all times in all locations, you might as well not nerf yourself from getting high-level help when and if it becomes available. Heck, if you're a Clanner, give me a tell and I'll buff you up to defend your bases myself.

Also, the kill window you speak of is only 1 minute, which is actually a very short time in a mass pvp, since odds are even if you spot someone who's in disgrace (they are out of the gas zone, which will be far away from the towers and the rest of the battle) they are probably out of range. And they are moving. So by the time you might get into range, the kill window has closed.

I have issues with people hopping the gas line at all levels to get out of danger and heal up/remove debuffs. It's no different if you're level 50, hop the gas, and get healed by a level 200, or if you're level 200, hop the gas, and get healed up by a level 50. They're both pretty cheesey.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Georg
So......

Me (no high levels) + you (with high levels) = you win

Glorious, sign me up, charge my credit card and let the credit and time wasting begin - AO v2 has arrived

<sigh>


Let me rephrase that

You ( in a guild of 10 level 100 players ) Vs Someone else (in a guild of 100 lvl 100-200 players) = ofcourse you'd loose.
Leave the 100 lvl100-200 guild to "The lemmings &co"

Which brings me right back to...

Make all the tower zones 150+ only and to hell with everyone else because it will all be decided by the high levels

Charge me twice as much for this, its such a crowd pleaser

-edit-
Now had you said a guild of 100 lvl 100 players I agree I should lose, the minute you add level 200's in, there no point, may as well not even bother to show up - or build one at all in that case

[georg]

Originally posted by Warlock


Which brings me right back to...

Make all the tower zones 150+ only and to hell with everyone else because it will all be decided by the high levels

Charge me twice as much for this, its such a crowd pleaser
-edit-
Now had you said a guild of 100 lvl 100 players I agree I should lose, the minute you add level 200's in, there no point, may as well not even bother to show up - or build one at all in that case

It just seems to me you cannot accept the fact that this is a game where you loose towers/bases quite often. My guild lost all its towers , overrun by a clan coalition but am I complaining ? 'We'll get it back one way or another.

However, currently a 150+ guild might have a tower or two low level for the bonuses, but they are no way capable of taking out a lvl 50 base due to their high levels but they -can- attempt to defend it either by buffing/helping their low levels, or, by buffing/helping their low level allies.
The guilds which are way more lethal are the ones in the same levelrange as your own.

Regarding the edit, those lvl 200s would in the case above be PART of that guild, so should be able to join in. If not able to attack atleast able to defend (buffing etc) as it are also their advantages which are at stake.
As its a GUILD vs GUILD war, not a GUILD vs only a few levels of the other GUILD.

The worst of it all is that this proposed "fix" wont help the problem you described earlier
AT ALL. It would just result in alot of annoying side effects, why shouldn't I be able to heal my lvl 149 or 140 or lower guild mate when we are defending our 200 base ??

(lvl 50 twink taking out a base while being uberly buffed. BUT ONE NOTE, it -does- either make him pvp enabled ** ** , or , make his orgs towers open for attack. Something which can be - very - risky nowadays.)

Posted earlier but I think it needs to be stressed once more
ITS NOT ABOUT THE TOWERS! It's org versus org, the towers are just the center of command and the method by which battle is declared. Get that through your head if you want to see the big picture. Otherwise you will never enjoy Notum Wars no matter how they nerf the battles.

I'll add, alot of the battles lately have been not just org vs org, but side vs side. Omni guilds helping other omni guilds no matter if they are high or low, same on the clan side. Soon to be alot harder if not impossible with this proposed fix.

[_______________Hypos]

posted by Warlock

Which brings me right back to...

Make all the tower zones 150+ only and to hell with everyone else because it will all be decided by the high levels

Charge me twice as much for this, its such a crowd pleaser

I agree that it's not perfect Warlock. I just think it's better than the alternative.

[Jynne]

There was a track Darkbane started us down a few pages back that I thought had potential... but only if FC could implement it halfway decently. This is what I think the best suggestion has been so far for this:

Each buff running in your NCU holds a "buff level." The buff level is an arbitrarily assigned value that represents the level at which someone could "fairly" make use of this buff against others in land control PvP.

If you enter a land control PvP area that is lower level by more than 20% compared to the level of a buff, and you yourself aggro a tower or a player, the "illegal" buff is automatically cancelled. That keeps attackers or defenders from getting buffs they "shouldn't have" in tower battles, while preserving the ability of higher level characters to buff them up, even in the land control area, with lower-level buffs that a doctor or soldier or MP of the "right" level could cast if one were available.

As for healing, and for the higher-end... a wider PvP range at the top would fix the biggest problems for higher-level players and uber-guilds as regards these limits. Call 125+ instead of 150+ the free-for-all for level 200s attacking/healing/buffing, and most of us wouldn't have any problems finding a way to get into the fight anymore.

EDIT: We also just want this to apply to land-control pvp, and not to screw over people who are flying over a LC area on their way to a mission, needing their RRFE and MoP to solo.

EDIT 2: The 'buff levels' I'm proposing would have to take into account that lower-level people can implant and buff their nano skills up to cast higher-QL buffs, too.

I think we'd find that by factoring in mochams or especially mochams + wrangles, most characters are 'theoretically' capable of casting at least some of their best buffs at level 125, depending on the profession and their implant QL and layout.