Total lack of documentation of game mechanics

[____________Buelothe]

One thing I feel is extremely frustrating is the total lack of documentation of game mechanics. The most I read are guesses on how criticals are calculated, how evades work etc.

Is this on purpose from Funcoms part? There is both an negative and positive part of this I think.

Pro - Players who play a lot are rewarded since they try out several professions.
Con - Players get frustrated, complain excessively on the forum and scream GIMP! as soon as their character don't perform as they wish.

Am I wrong? Point me to a website please, please, please, please!

Vitniri

[______________Chimpy]

I agree totally, it's taking me ages to learn this games ins and outs to the point that people are gettin p'off in game cause I'm askin so many questions, a good MP guide wouldn't go amiss

[__________BestDealer]

Several people have already independantly discovered and verified how to calculate critical hits and max damage, checkout the "mausser" thread in this section. It is true in general though that there is almost no specific information whatsoever about just exactly how AO works.

Evade skills inparticular are one example, and how they relate to the chance of a critical hit. Yet they tell us that we ought not to know too much, while at the same time provide us with skills and items that all contain very specific numbers and seem to expect us to just choose with the very little, and mostly vague, information that we get.

Thats really screwed up, almost like asking someone to gamble on slot machines and not tell them what their odds of success are, except that "more attempts will yield better results". bleh

If they wanted us to be able to make relative decisions they should have given us relative data to do it by, and NOT precise data! The fact that our choices are in some sense irreversable with the IP system (once allocated, its gone)
makes it even worse.

It's also not at all obvious to new-comers how to choose between a huge variety of weapons, most of which are completely unviable and a waste of space. Yet, I hear Cosmik and other FC employees touting claims like "New weapons are introduced all the time". I can't think of even one kind of new viable weapon for any profession thats obviously better than what was there before.

[______SecretAgentMan]

The best answer I've heard as to why this information is kept secret...

If you know the exact formulas, you'll tweak your character's skills, stats and equipment to take best advantage of that information and everyone will end up being the exact same.

Honestly, isn't that why people want to know the exact game mechanics?

By keeping the game mechanics secret, or at least unpublished, they can modify the underlying game mechanics without any announcements or changes to published materials being necessary.

Also, this encourages experimentation to discover the the "optimal" settings for your character, and the more time you're experimenting, the longer you're paying them $13 a month... you do the math.

S.A.M.

[__________BestDealer]

Originally posted by SecretAgentMan
The best answer I've heard as to why this information is kept secret...

If you know the exact formulas, you'll tweak your character's skills, stats and equipment to take best advantage of that information and everyone will end up being the exact same.

Honestly, isn't that why people want to know the exact game mechanics?

By keeping the game mechanics secret, or at least unpublished, they can modify the underlying game mechanics without any announcements or changes to published materials being necessary.

Also, this encourages experimentation to discover the the "optimal" settings for your character, and the more time you're experimenting, the longer you're paying them $13 a month... you do the math.

S.A.M.

The IP system should already ensure that the scenario you mention shouldn't happen since people would be forced to choose between different benefits. If it did occur it would indicate an inherent design problem with AO's game mechanics that ought to be fixed, not covered up.

Most players I run into don't even want to add numbers with a 4-function calculator, let alone spend time "optimizing" their characters -- I would expect they'd just be able to be comfortable knowing the significance of each trade-off they have to choose from, a luxury which they currently do not have.

[______________Wahoo.]

I was amazed at the graphics, the play style and feel for the game in general when I first started AO. AS my knowledge of the game grew I began to see this was a complex and tricky game indeed. So I researched a little. There online manual (“http://www.anarchy-online.com/content/support/guides/”) is very incomplete and not to mention the strategy and game manual. Now, truly there has to be an official guide to go by (By Official I mean game developer released). Look, please tell me you documented the game as you built it. If you did document AO, please release an updated online manual and maybe a downloadable “*.pdf”. Remember the game changes with every patch and so should the manual. I feel new players may understand the game and may stay longer if they understand it.

[__________Coagulator]

I totally agree! There are so many unanswered question in this game. I am so grateful that as a fixer my weapon choices are more limited, as such I have wasted very little ip's. I still do not however, understand how most things calculate out (Criticals are an excellent example). Even little things like stacking items in your inventory! Why when I buy bullets they stack-but when I find them in a chest they only combine with other "Chest bullets", or if I buy 2-50 charge nano rechargers they won't combine, but you can buy them in sets of 100 or more! This are just little frustartions! The biggies are so much more entailed. Some things make sense, others do not! Please please please, just an online manual even!

Coag

[Cosmik]

Well, the fact is we hope Anarchy Online doesn't become a game consisting of number crunching and pure calculation. You learn through experimenting and experience, and thus there are different opinions and different ways of doing things. For one, I know I would like to see people levelling through fun and exploration rather than sitting down with a calculator and working out what weapon they have to use at level 90. If all numbers and formulas were given out, we would risk having less diversity in the character pool (something alot of people have been asking for quite a bit lately).

This isn't to say if you don't calculate your skills out each level (or every other level) you will be gimped. There are a multitude of avenues to follow with your skills, leading to some very interesting and great characters. Travelling off the beaten path can be rewarding.

As for the manual, and the information within it, that is being revised, rewritten, redone, reborn and updated.

[_____________Dyspare]

Originally posted by Cosmik
Well, the fact is we hope Anarchy Online doesn't become a game consisting of number crunching and pure calculation. You learn through experimenting and experience, and thus there are different opinions and different ways of doing things. For one, I know I would like to see people levelling through fun and exploration rather than sitting down with a calculator and working out what weapon they have to use at level 90. If all numbers and formulas were given out, we would risk having less diversity in the character pool (something alot of people have been asking for quite a bit lately).

This isn't to say if you don't calculate your skills out each level (or every other level) you will be gimped. There are a multitude of avenues to follow with your skills, leading to some very interesting and great characters. Travelling off the beaten path can be rewarding.

As for the manual, and the information within it, that is being revised, rewritten, redone, reborn and updated.

Translation: Play until 80th, realize you're horribly gimped, unable to kill even grey mobs that give zero experience, and try again.

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by Cosmik
If all numbers and formulas were given out, we would risk having less diversity in the character pool (something alot of people have been asking for quite a bit lately).

Arrrgggggg!!!!! My head is going to p p.

Diversity is good when it is there because people want different things out of their character. One person might want a speedy Fixer with high run buffs, while another might want a bigger HoT in order to fight toe-to-toe more often. If there is one best way to build a character then your game mechanics has problem, not the players.

Diversity is bad when it comes out of ignorance. It would be one thing if your rules were modeled after nature or had some logic to them. There could be some intuition involved when assigning IP points or purchasing items. The fact is that the rules are arbitrary, so your chance of getting a better character has more to due with luck than skill.

In these types of games, bad decisions regarding you character has a permanent effect. You say you want diversity. How about every Fixer using a Mausser? Maybe the Suppressor with full auto is just as good? Or maybe dual wielding Gamma Ejectors won’t gimp your character in the long run. In your mind the only way to find out is to risk months of playing time and IP assignments to try it out. Guess what? Most players are going to play it safe. The only time players will go against common wisdom is when the advantage gained could be large. It simply would not be worth the risk otherwise. Hard-core role players might chance it but no one else would. Where is your diversity now?

How about when Funcom changes a rule? Now all that gained knowledge is thrown out the window. What is the point in figuring the game out when it is constantly changing? You get the nasty side effect that the game feels less stable. Let’s face it. AO has had a lot of bugs. When something doesn’t go the way I expected, I don’t know whether it was by design or is yet another glitch. If we had the game mechanics or knew the developer’s intentions, we wouldn’t have to guess.

Also the rules will get out eventually. Are you trying to tell me that the game will be broken then? Is the game going down the toilet now because people are figuring it out. All that you have done is penalize your long time players who started their characters earlier. The last thing Funcom needs to do is to hurt the players who have most supported it.

Warning sarcasm ahead:

I like the kind of diversity that comes with a player putting points into Swimming. But wait, maybe swimming is secretly included in calculating your chance to find loot in water. Maybe not. Only luck will reward the player who guesses right. Yea that is what will make AO great. Why not just slap a random number generator to IP assignment and take all player intelligence out of the game. Then you’ll get your diversity.

Sarcasm over. Now I am just going to rub your nose in it.

The rules chess have been known for ages. There are books devoted to standard openings and the best tactics. Do you really think the game would be better is it was unknown exactly how a pawn could take another piece?

[___________randomjoe]

hehe cosmik
for some of us that number crunching is half the fun, although admittedly wouldnt be possible if you told us everything. on the other hand, all we are asking for is HOW THINGS WORK, we arent asking for you to hold our hands in everything we do, with the knowledge i still have, i STILL know that just going pure shotgun with fixer is one way of doing things, full auto is an OPTION, grid armor is an OPTION, there are many such options P breed/class combos(my opifex soldier is gonna be absolute ownage) theoretical things that i never got around to trying(a trader using martial arts should be the most godly solo class ever) saw some trader ma the other day, and he told me it sucked P HUGE power differences between relative chars, i know a lvl 112 ma that had higher ma skill then a 132, is one better then the other? perhaps, is one better at dealing dmg through ma skill? defenitely, but you cant honestly say one is "better" then the other without sooooooooooooo much comparison number crunching that its FAR beyond not worth it. that reminds me, an atrox fixer with grid armor and dual rider execs hehehehhehe. we get light blue brawl for some bizzare unknown reason, mise well! you could skip psy mod(root you shoot you!, oh wait.....) lots of amusing combos, just rather annoying that ip spending is permanent, i agree that at least in theory an ip wipe is good idea, but must be very careful that you disallow exploiting P (i mean like something you can trigger on your char, if you arent wearing anything have no buffs, etc etc, so that you can play around, and put points in what you actually want, rather then ultimately wasting all those points you spent on adventuring or swim back when you were a noob and had no idea that they are useless skills)

anyway im rambling, but i cant say that im totally unhappy with the way it is now, you just have to try things, talk to ppl, figure it out ) it takes a SIGNIFICANT amount of thinking time/investment to really figure out your char, thats the defining area of ao is the amazingly complex char development system, and why its so cool )

the only thing i really miss from eq is the godlike uber mobs/loot, but that will come eventually, unless fc is completely amazingly dumb /shrug but i dont think that given where i see them going and what their concept ideals are

only other thing is the one being addressed by gaute now, and thats group dynamics, its currently just NOT that workable. so much of the group dynamic power right now is the ability to stall, it sux hehe. mobs are easy to kill and dont give much xp, so the good ways to xp are to kill ZILLIONS of mobs(shades in 20k are a good example of this) or take on hard mobs that give good xp in comparision(veterans typically) and 10 mobs is just too impossible to cc, you cant have 2 ppl doing crowd control for the same group, unless they are siting next to each other irl, and even then MAYBE, you just couldnt sync enough on targeting for it to be even remotely efficient, its always better to have just one person do cc, in whatever way he does it. going on from there, no nf casts in lesst then like 10 seconds? or something dunno the min time counting animation. but anyway, the only massively efficient way of taking on shades at a point where they arent green is crat ae root, and even then you really have to know how to work it. hmmm. perhaps ) but currently the odds of finding somebody with that kind of player skill is low in the first place, even not considering the low crat count. ao currently just doesnt encourage skill more then it encourages figuring out ways to overequip or exploit( kinda the same thing from a certain perspective)

[___________MrTeatime]

While a complete manual would be nice for several reasons, I don't think it should be released. A newbie manual like "idiot's guide to AO" should be published, but I would rather want it ingame than as a webpage or a .pdf. I haven't tried the new /help command now on test but I suspect this is just information about emotes, organization commands etc.

However, printing all the "hidden" effects and modifiers in the game would only lead to even more specialization than we're seeing now. Besides, you don't need it.

A newbie player can "waste" all his IPs if he wants to and still be able to kill stuff when he gets higher. The only way to completely ruin your character is to max dark blue skills that have nothing to do with the profession you are playing. Rerolls that don't ever spend 1 IP wrong might be a tad better than your first character, but only for so long. Once you get to level 40-50 you should have learned all the basic facts of the game, and then you can spend 20k IPs / level up to level 100 with better care.

A fixer might have to choose between a Supressor, a Mausser or two Gamma Ejectors. Why can't you just pick one? Will you be horribly gimped by one choice? Would you reroll if some other weapon did 10 more minimum damage? All the information you need is listed on the weapon; damage, crit modifier, RoF, ammo capacity, damage type and so on. The only thing you would need to know is what these things mean. Newbie information.

If you put points into swimming you will move across water faster, which is a good thing. Yes, those IPs might have been better spent on some other skill, but what were you expecting? Swimming makes you swim faster, read the skill description (shift+left click). Evades make you evade hits more often, run speed makes you faster and so on.

One example:
I've been playing my crat since launch, in the beginning it was common knowledge that Freedom Arms were the best pistols in the game. So I said ok and started using them. They were very nice in the lower levels but then mobs started getting better Fire AC and it turned out FAs weren't that good after all. I could have kept on raising pistols and maybe used a 9-X or something similar with high crits (by then I'd learned what crits were), but I'd also learned that letting my droid fight for me was better. So I used the next few levels to max the nano skills related to pets. I could also have gone the shotgun way, but I tried a low level Vektor and I didn't like the speed so I dumped it.

Now, I still have ~400 pistol skill, ~250 fling and ranged energy, that's a lot of IPs. But even so I have maxed all my relevant skills and I now raise non-important skills like B&E to further improve my character. All you need to fix a broken level 70 character is a few more levels, and a few friends can get you from 70 to 75 in a day or so.

[Raik]

gamma ejectors come in only QL 68.
they req' 495 Multi Ranged skill.
there are no other SMGs that can efficiently dual wielded (yes, there are others you can dual wiel - beleive me i should know, but they just dont perform.)

so raising a blue skill to 495 for a set of weapons that are QL 68 _WILL_ sooner or later be a 'bad choice' ...

ESPECIALLY since nobody has been able to confirm, if dual Gamma Ejectors _really_ fire faster than a single one - enough so to make 495 blue IP justified.

... get the hint?
We need definite, straight forward "no-happy-horse-sh!t" rules, if we are supposed to play a game.

Crin pointed this out nicely.

if this game has not a 'set-in-stone' ruleset, then i want a inflatable "one size fits all" nuklear bomb.... nobody ever said i couldnt have one...

Does my 127 MA make my Fixer a "very interesting and great character" (Cosmik) when that means that I will need yet another level before I can cast my next Nano-Upgrade? ... these 127 skill points will hurt me for the rest of my life... of course it WAS stupid of me to assume i could one day KICK while dual wielding SMGs... but the rules said... oh wait - there are no rules in AO. at least none obvious enough to follow - since common sense hardly applies either.

I wasted 360K IP on Viper-Dual SMGs - I figured "damn, those have some high ass requirements - i bet this pays off - they are way fast and i can dual wield them - im gonna be one cool-looking hellwind of bullets" ....

that was before i knew what impact minimum damage, maximum damage, criticals and damage types will have in the lvl 100+ game.

Do all those skills i raised because of the _lack_ of rules make my Character "very interesting and great" (Cosmik) now?

Really? w00t - where do i sign... im gonna dump the next 100K IP into Adventuring and be helluva "very interesting and great" (Cosmik) guy.

-Raik Out

PS. Calles like Fixers cant frikken AFFORD to be very interesting and great characters.

[______________Scorus]

Originally posted by Cosmik
If all numbers and formulas were given out, we would risk having less diversity in the character pool (something alot of people have been asking for quite a bit lately).

You already have little diversity in the character pool (relative to the vast array of weapons and styles available). It is just that players that don't get in with friends don't know what the only 1 or 2 weapons that a particular profession can use and remain viable are, at first at least. Until they try and sell one of the scads of weapons they find on a mission and discover nobody uses them.

The answer to promoting diversity isn't to give out less information! In fact, the answer to no problem that AO has is to give out less information! To promote diversity, balance weapons (and classes) so that players actually have a choice on which they want to use without sacrificing their ability to solo yellows.

Scorus

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by MrTeatime
However, printing all the "hidden" effects and modifiers in the game would only lead to even more specialization than we're seeing now.

That is assuming that there is one best way to play a character. As I have stated earlier you could even get more diversity because players could check to see if a nonstandard template was viable without the risk of totally gimping their character. The way it is now, players are more likely to go with conventional wisdom because they are afraid of doing permanent damage.

Rerolls that don't ever spend 1 IP wrong might be a tad better than your first character, but only for so long. Once you get to level 40-50 you should have learned all the basic facts of the game, and then you can spend 20k IPs / level up to level 100 with better care.

I will admit that the game is very forgiving for mistakes made at lower level. However the basics of the game are not known by level 45. Exactly how good is Grid Armor? Is it worth the huge investment into a dark Blue skill in order to get it? If you make that investment will you ever be able to actually get that nano?

You stated, “The only way to completely ruin your character is to max dark blue skills that have nothing to do with the profession you are playing. ” Matter Creation is a dark blue skill for Fixers and if you don’t get the Grid Armor nano…, Well let’s just say it wouldn’t be good.

A fixer might have to choose between a Supressor, a Mausser or two Gamma Ejectors. Why can't you just pick one? Will you be horribly gimped by one choice? Would you reroll if some other weapon did 10 more minimum damage? All the information you need is listed on the weapon.

Well you can’t just pick one because some of those choices involve a blue skill. For a weapon other than a mausser to be used, it had better be damn good. And no not all of the information is listed, like “Will a higher QL of this gun be released that I can use at the upper levels?”, “Will a better MG/SMG + Burst weapon be released eliminating the need an alternate weapon with higher IP requirements?”

If you put points into swimming you will move across water faster, which is a good thing. Yes, those IPs might have been better spent on some other skill, but what were you expecting? Swimming makes you swim faster, read the skill description (shift+left click). Evades make you evade hits more often, run speed makes you faster and so on.

Would it surprise you that there are a couple of credible posts stating that Perception WILL increase the loot found in chests? How much does range init help your rate of fire at the full aggression level? At 0%? What is the minimum attack/recharge rate for a gun? Does the agg/def bar affect nano resistance? What exactly does Perception do?

No we really don’t have all the information.

All you need to fix a broken level 70 character is a few more levels, and a few friends can get you from 70 to 75 in a day or so.

Do you use implants? I ask because according to your logic they are not necessary because you’ll get those points in a couple of levels anyway.