Please do NOT reduce the level of the pets

[Razaphysics]

[EDIT - the original title was : Please do NOT reduce the level of the pets - but the discussion moved on from there ...]

OK - and now that I have your attention what I really mean is make the level of the pets summoned in missions consistent with what players of the same level can summon.

This seems to be the case at lower level but at the top end mobs are summoning pets of a level that players cannot summon which is clearly wrong.

Don't nerf the level of mob pets unless you nerf the level of player pets too and I am NOT suggesting you do that.

At the heart of this is a game balance issue that relates to PVP balance as well which I don't propose to go into here.

When I set the mission bar at 50% I should expect to get mobs of roughly my own level that should be roughly be as tough as I am unless of course my profession is much weaker at fighting than other professions... thats the PVP balance thing I don't wanna get into

What you are seeing here is a profession balance issue and also a latent issue with missions that have multiple mobs in rooms.

After all how many people would openly take on 2 or 3 or 4 players in PVP at once? You would probably expect to lose right? Unless of course they were a much lower level...

In that respect this is entirely correct but I suspect it would be helped if the multiple mobs in the main room was dropped so that people could at least contest missions at their own level on a one-to-one basis.

So I would say this is a balancing issue about number of mobs you are forced to face at once and also the relative abilities of each profession in fights (nice easy topic there ).

Of course you could start me on a thread about team missions needing multiple mobs per room which is why they need a team - but perhaps another time

Interestingly a lot of the same issues can be applied to outdoor mobs where they appear in packs which is one of the reasons people don't hunt - its too damn risky

Perhaps this is an indirect way of encouraging people to hunt again ...?

Give it a little thought people and try and take a longer term view about game balance and making the game more fun/interesting rather than just ranting about making it easier for people to make XP.

Flame away ...

Raza

[______________Hodaka]

There's a huge difference between player controlled pets and mob controlled pets.. there's no way you can seriously think they should be on the same level.. sheesh..

[Razaphysics]

Well actually yes I can I do because I am thinking about game balance and I am more interested in continuity of the environment than seeing the game remain at the "space invaders" level of a simple repetitive arcade game which is where most missions are just now.

Like I said before try and be more open about the longer term game balance.

Mobs and NPCs should be consistent with playes otherwise the continuity of the environment falls apart and it has no chance of being a "virtual world"...

[______________Hodaka]

Until you get computers that behave like people, you're looking at a pipe dream.. it just isn't going to happen and work..

[Toxinator]

I just want FC to get rid of the "mini-bosses".

[Arinia]

First and foremost, isn't a Q200 slayerdroid the best slayer? Why would a NPC be able to summon a pet not ingame?

As for HP, isn't 80k HP on a Slayerdroid II enough? (Or is it 40k... even then, that's a lot of HP)

Give 'em realistic pets, for pete's sake.

[_______________Vydas]

You know, I'd be very happy if they followed your thoughts here and gave all my characters the HPs, nano pool, initiatives, AC and so on of NPCs. Until they do that, these pets (at least for individual missions) need a lot of work. They should be removed, fixed, and then reinstated afterwards.

[Toxinator]

Originally posted by Vydas
You know, I'd be very happy if they followed your thoughts here and gave all my characters the HPs, nano pool, initiatives, AC and so on of NPCs. Until they do that, these pets (at least for individual missions) need a lot of work. They should be removed, fixed, and then reinstated afterwards.

Amen.

[Razaphysics]

Hoda - I understand the sentiment but I think we should try and stretch the game in the right direction...

Arinia - yup I think I make the same point there should be consistency in what NPCs and players can summon

Vydas - you're irght of course and sooner or later Funcom will see the light I'm sure. What they should probably do is tone down the stats on the NPCs to our level and in team missions have multiple mobs per room - which is why you would need a team and a mix of skills to take them on ...

I would also like to say that this is such a positive step in the dierction of continuity of players and NPCs with an obvious tweak or two needed.

Who knows perhaps next we will see NPCs carrying a more random selection of weapons too! That way there will be more variety in what we experience - an enforcer mob with a beam will be scarier than an enforcer mob with a baseball bat and a soldier mob with a flashpoint laser is going to have a hell of an alpha attack but if you can survive that - anyway you get the picture it's about taking some of the variety that occurs organically in PVP play and trying to extend it to the NPCs that way you will be paying attention before you step into a room rather than racing mindlessly from room to room

[_______________Vydas]

Well, mobs don't use weapons. That's why (for example) Trader debuffs don't work on them.

You are talking about changing the NPCs altogether, and I just can't see that as being a realistic expectation or goal. At least not for this game, in our lifetimes .

[_____________Daschle]

People keep saying the NPC summon thing duplicates PvP, and is a good thing.

Bullpucky.

I'm doing missions because I'm NOT interested in PvP. Uh, hello?

If I wanted PvP, I'd go play BF1942 where, if I may say so myself, I'm one of the better players I've ever come across.

Forcing people to PvP, and forcing them to group is a sure fire path to disaster.

As for the "Players have high ql pets, NPC's should too" thing.. that's crap. Do NPC's have to spend hours, even weeks working on getting items, buffs, and implants to equip these pets? If you want to play this balance crap, start making life hard on NPC's and easier on us.. remove our nanp pool and nano restrictions, like the gent said above.

Face the simple facts.. NPC's are *NOT* people, and people are not NPC's. (Well, unless you count Al Gore.) Quit trying to pretend they are.

[_____________Gegemon]

It is very simple:
Point 1: PVM in this game was being balanced for numerous patches. It resulted in what we call a mob (low damage if compared with typical player of same level, insane HP, unlimited nanopool, cannot be deprived etc etc).

Point 2: PVM changed now a lot when mobs got pets. Changes were: pet lvl of mob + 20% appr.; my higher aggro of the mobs towards the player (not the player pets) - my MP could feel it; mobs HPs were slightly reduced - I bet it was done as well

Point 3: Some of the MPs and ENGs got jealous as it was shown that the pets can be much higher than lvl 200

Result: non pet mobs became a little easier (not taking into account insane aggro in first room); mobs with pets became impossible for solo

Advice to FC: rebalancing means a lot of fine tuning; if you wanted PVM that is close to PVP - give monsters same HP, nano pool and weapons that the players have - then you can add the monsters

[____________Dominata]

Mobs casting pets have nothing to do with PvP whatsoever, it has nothing to do with a mob displaying more realistic behavior, it's about one thing only...slowing down leveling.
AI is more or less non-existant in AO, the only way for FC to make it harder is to do insane stupid things like this to increase the difficulty.

This is a typical lazy FC solution to what they consider to be a problem. It is lazy because...

- They have done nothing to change the spawn system in missions, an entry room is still only occupied by mobs of the same profession, woe you if they have pets. At higher levels this is silly beyond belief, considering the level of the pets and it will be a serious game breaker for a lot of people, even at lower levels.

- The only way for FC to prevent people from killing the pet instead of it's master is by not giving XP for killing the pet. This is a complete rewriting of one of the most basic rules in AO, kill a mob that is at least green to you and you get XP. Not so anymore...

I am so tired of these lame "improvements" to the game that doesn't add anything at all, it's just an obstruction to having at least a moderate degree of fun.

[Razaphysics]

Well its a shame if my aspirations for continuity are unrealistic because its an area that truely needs to be addressed.

The mission environment is so very "false" in the way it is set up at the moment and it detracts from the game environment in so many ways.

I honestly think however that it is very fixable - the game has enough flexibility to do this - it is that very flexibility that has created the difference in the first place

Why would it be so very terrible to give NPCs our stats and our weapons? What you would also do is lower the damage we all do though - no don't scream yet - think a moment - because this hasn't been done this is why we have the completely bizaare situation where a mob of my level and professional has much higher hit points than me and at the same time I have my damage capped when fighting another player... Bring overall damage down so that PVP lasts more than 5 secs, apply the same damage to NPCs but give them our stats - you have the same over all effect but you also have continuity in the game environment !

I would also space the mobs out more - its nonsense to have a mob next door being surprised or not coming to investigate when WWIII just happened 10 feet away... why should every room have a mob in it? Space them out and where you have bunch close together then you will just have to draw one off to a more remote location before engaging in open warfare. If you don't then face the risk of other mobs nearby coming to investigate. Again all very do-able and more consistent with RL rules - the game would be sooooo much better for it.

And as I mentioned before team missions should imply encountering multiple mobs at once which is why it needs a team...

I'm not at odds with what people are saying here I just think there is another way to get there and actually improve the continuity of the game environment along the way.

[_______________Vydas]

The reason I said it's not realistic is that it would call for re-engineering the entire game mechanics. Mobs function entirely seperately from character builds, and to re-do that is just not something that one can reasonably expect to happen in a released game. I don't believe any engine is capable of that type of flexibility.

Maybe you'll see your wishes in AO2.

[Joras]

Oh Razaphysics, great idea! We need mobs to be like PCs! Yeah! Continuity!

Let's get a mob to yell for his buddies. How about this: the range for calling in your buddies is standard /shout distance. That way, when you attack that Engineer, he summons his Pet, then yells for his buddies. The agent in the next room hears him, and yells for more people to help. This agent is heard by two more mobs, who yell for more help. Pretty sure, we can get the whole level coming down on us. Great idea! I mean, that's how PCs would do it right? Continuity!

Crats & NTs should just calm you when they're at 50% health. You get to twiddle your thumbs for a few minutes. Just sit back and relax. Take a load off. Or better yet, they'll chain root! OH YEAH BABY! I can't wait! Cuz you know, Continuity makes the game so much better.

Oh, and those fixer mobs. Forget killing those. 8 out of 10 fixer mobs should reckless digitalize out when they're at 10% health. Then they'll come back later and jump you when you're fighting someone else. Continuity!

And last, don't forget agents! You'll never see an Agent, because they should all be hidden. The only evidence that they even exist should be the message "You died from weapon damage" when they gank you while you're fighting something else (Enforcers probably, since they'll be the only thing you can kill). 10000 Aimed Shots! Should be awesome. Who cares that I'm dying whenever I meet up with an orange+ human mob? I'm having fun because the game has a GREAT SENSE OF CONTINUITY.

[Razaphysics]

Wonderfully sarcastic Kejane but you distorted the point some what.

The shout thing is taking it to an extreme and is not what I had in mind - you will recall in one of the patches (the first time team missions were introduced I think) that a system of something like any mob within a 2 room radius could be attracted to teh location of the fight. This didn't work out because every room has a mob in it and people couldn't cope with the number of mobs that were drawn - but the principle is a sound one.

Yes crats and NTs should be able to calm but clearly nano resist needs to looked at first - no different from the PVP world really

And if player fixers can vanish why shouldn't NPC fixers be able to do the same?

As for agents - well I get the point yes - but I'm suggesting that NPCs damage is "balanced" in the same way as our damage is restricted in PVP. Also if an agent is not expecting to fight why would they be hidden? Plus why would if be wrong if NPC agents who heard a fight hid themselves - it would make people think about their percpetion skill a whole lot more.

Would this take a serious commitment from Funcom to implement - possibly the balancing would be a tricky factor. But to over simply the process massively and to pluck some very draft numbers for illustrative purposes only:

try this:

reduce player damage by 50% and remove the PVP damage caps. Reduce NPC health pools by 50% and keep their damage about the same to start with. Then tweak - put it on the test server for a month to sort out the correct mix of numbers...

Very crude I know and someone else could probably getting a better sense of what the numbers should be but at a stroke you stepped a whole lot closer to continuity between the NPC world and players....

[____________Wingless]

i think u have take the problem in the wrong way...

if the pet class can summon them pet is true they must use the pet of the game not special version of mob from nowhere.

add special skill to the other class is useless..
maybe some must add skill they use like team healing when an doc are in the same room or thing of the same type.

but the true problem in this is the pet pathing, for the player he are terrible but for the powerfull mob of the game he can become terrifiant for player.

how many time u have fight against invisible mob?
how many time u pet have disappear in the wall and have follow u in all the stage?
how many time u have take an mass aggro? (all mob from the next room come and made an party on u body)

and is only some trouble with mission and why because they are all indoor
never we have an mission in underground base! or underground cave with an true city in!
is maybe the time to think at change mission before change the mob in the mission

[Epicenter]

I must show my uttter support for this thread.

I agree exactly, with Lower player damage (oh no my pretty numbers are lower now) 100% pvp, and 50% or less Mob health. They can tweak pvp independently, fine, leave the crits nerfed.... 40% health rule.. <shrug>

In this kind of system, you could actually make the case for groups of up to 6 enemies in one room. And if the enemies didnt take the concerted firepower of 6 people blowing away at them for 10 minutes each, this would be AWESOME fun!

Yes have Agents sneaking when you walk into a room! Are they guarding a vital installation, or just sittting around?? Engineers have their pets ready and buffed! NT's nuke only! MP's Debuff/Nuke only, with minimal fighting. and their pets will vanish upon the Owners death. Soldiers/Enforcers/MA's will pull your target (with the aggro nanos) onto them, and you will seamlessly switch to shooting them! Crats "calm" you when you arent being attacked, thereby debuffing your Inits. Make traders all set out to distribute skill points and AC's around the "Mob team" Fixer mobs will HoT someone under attack then Run out of the room, and become a roving enemy who could attack at any time later in the mission! I don't even have to tell you what a pain a good "Mob team Doc" would be to the mission! Take it out first! Use tactics! This is a thinking game, right!?

Figure out ahead of time templates for combining aspects of the professions in a dynamic encounter way, where the prevailing buffs or attitudes of a certain class/Combinations of classes would shape the strategy of that room of enemies.

You could work the Mission terminal settings into this as well. Make your mission settings determine what kind of playstyle you want, with only full Physical and Head on requiring a super Enforcer/Doc combo of players. A full hidden mission, with full myst, would be Isolated mobs, where the objective is to prevent them from seeing you, or communicating your prescence to the installation. Why not take cues from Rainbow 6, for Mob behavior when alerted!?

Why not make aggro a range based thing!? If you root a guy with a nanoprogram, and run 4320498 rooms away, Sure he's gonna unroot, and tell his budddies about you, but He isnt gonna waste his time somehow HACKING your damn treatment kits!

Limit the 10k Aimed shots,(a lot of the agent stuff in general, FP, crit nanos.. heh) and the amount of Pet classes in one room, and all the other *details* people will bring up to derail this idea. Exceptions to the rule that are unfair can be tweaked.

This are great ideas for the future of combat in AO! Team missions would be dynamic, exciting experiences. As opposed to Find the mob, calm the add, Blam Blam Blam Blam Blam Blam <doc heals the hopefully keeping aggro tank> In this scenario the Doc and the tank are the only relevant people. <shrug> how boring. These super Dynamic classes, with no real role in team missions, unless you calm, tank, heal, or do sick damage. (some buffs are nice to have of course)



Even if this was a team mission exclusive system, and the left the "old system" for solo missions and outdoors and all the various Unique places where the guys have even more health than the already ludicrous team mission guys.

<shrug>

This is mah 37 Cents worth.

[Epicenter]

BUMP

I wanna hear what Ya'll think of this, Raza change the title if you can, I think people are passing this over as a non-issue. But its got a better issue all buttery and warm inside!