Lets play a game. Traders justify this one.

[________AnotherFixer]

This gets funnier by the moment with each subsequent trader reply.


I'll just address a few things here to keep it rolling.

The last post was damn near the best one yet. SEEMINGLY overpoewered!? LMAO. OK there bunny...which classes can a trader never beat beat at equal level? Hmm...oh...thats right....none.


And, just cause you threw it in I'll add this. For the supposedly all powerful uber and godmode GA IV....hmm...how many classes mean a nearly 100% loss for a GAIV Fixer? Oh, that's right...FOUR. Not a challenge, or 50% loss...a 100% loss at equal levels (Trader, MP, NT, and doctor for the uneducated). But hey, nerf the **** out of GA if it means BALANCING all the classes.

Traders are not balanced. They are not even in perspective for this piece of crap "rock, paper, scissors" profession design FC seems to be going for which is THE WORST GODDAMN WAY TO CREATE BALANCE EVER. In rock, paper, scissor, traders have NO nemesis.

[MrBunny]

It's like this...

I've not genuinely witnessed the 120 trader beating down the 180 people. But I have genuinely seen a level 1 trader running in Omni-ent with an apprentice title.

I am sure some of you have seen a level 1 advent run around with an apprentice title too. How is it that the advent was able to get apprentice at level 1? What does this mean? That advents are overpowered? Of course not.

People who hear about a level 1 advent with an apprentice title generally either think:
1.) Advent is incredibly twinked out.

2.) Advent is title farming.


Now...
I am sure some of you have heard of this stupid story of the 120 trader killing the 180 characters in MMD. What does this mean?

People who hear about the 120 trader killing the 180 characters in MMD either think:
1.) Traders are overpowered

2.) Traders are overpowered


This is genuinely curious to me. Why is it that in the first scenario people are more prone to accept that the advent in question was twinked or title farming... but in the case of the trader, that the trader was just an over powered profession to begin with ? Easy. It's because non-traders have developed this stereotypical view of traders being way uber and way overpowered. What other explanation is there? That traders are truly overpowered?

Look if that was TRULY the case that traders are overpowered then everyone who wants a trader nerf should also want the following nerfs:

1.) MP Nerf:
reason: They have nano-shut down. So what if a trader debuffs you so you cant use your favourite nano formula? When an MP shuts down your nanos, you get -2000 to your nano skills. That's 5 times worse than a trader debuff.

2.) Doc Nerf:
reason: They can debuff your inits by 1000. This is more than twice a trader debuff. You hit slow, you cast slow. The only thing you can do thats not affected by an init debuff is running away.

3.) Fixer Nerf:
reason: So what if a trader debuffs you? At least you can still hit them. When a fixer dons Grid armor, its just the same as you being debuffed in that you're not able to hit the fixer in question.
Only that the fixer has enhanced themselves to such a point, when compared to you, your virtually debuffed.

It's pretty obvious where this is going. Even if traders gave the most logical and most convincing reason and convincing cases as to why they are not as uber as you think they are...
Theres no way a trader can win in this argument.

People who whine about traders being overpowered fall into one of two categories

1.) You never fought a trader in a duel. You only hear about how people say traders are overpowered and you hear it so many times you just accept it as fact. This is the same as propaganda.

2.) You fought a trader and lost once. Ever since you lost youve developed this deep grudge against traders for whatever reason that might be. i.e bruised ego, humiliation, etc.

Let's face it. The only thing that takes place in people's minds is how they can make their profession the absolute best. In their minds traders represent a threat. Traders give the illussion of being an uber profession. An unbeatable profession of merchants selling pots and pans. How is it that merchants selling pots and pans be able to wipe out combat orientated professions? The answer is they don't. Like me, theres a bunch of other people who've killed traders and been equally killed by traders.

All thats happened right now is that some person got their ego crushed by being owned by a 120 trader who they thought should have been easy ganking. They were wrong and for whatever reason they got owned pretty bad. But just cause you lose to someone doesnt mean that someone is way more uber than you are. It could be a variety of reasons. Like the 180's are just gimps. That could be a reason right?

My point is that there are alot of reasons the 120 trader could have won. Is it more likely that the reason is that traders are overpowered? Well hm.. Considering my MA can kill 150 traders, I am pretty sure that this is not the case.

Is it more likely that the starter of this thread and everyone supporting him using stereotypical views and cliches are just nursing bruised egos? Well considering that no one has really substantially come up with a good response to my arguments. I would have to lean on this assessment.

[iloveposting]

I saw this trader take out a 181 soldier, but who else high level doesnt fight without outside buffs these days? Its insane.

I have a picture but you cant see his name, he was an atrox trader , in a primus coat, with carbonum.


I dont care, a level 120trader should not be able to take out a 180+ fighting class, or any for that fact, 180+ will have every skill important to them maxed and more.

If you would say an equal level trader, yeah I can live with that, but someone 60-80 levels lower!????

Either someone is exploiting, or they people he fought were self buffed and he himself was not.

I have seen the best of the best 200 traders die to the same level of another class, enf mostly... but for one to die to a 120...there something wrong, this isnt a whine, this is a damned outrage :P

But I have no gripes against any classes, just they should make so many changes, nerfs and un-needed additions to some, they game was in for it since day 1.
Be glad that your proffesion gets the last love ever ;p

[MrBunny]

Originally posted by Highjack
...which classes can a trader never beat beat at equal level? Hmm...oh...thats right....none.

That's very interesting how you ask me a question and have already made up your mind as to what the answer is.

It's quite clear that this post started by you is not about the trader class being "unbalanced" It's not even an attempt at covering the problem with the guise of genuine concern for the welfare of other professions.

It's pure trader hate.

It's not possible to argue logically with someone who's already made up their minds to how "uber" traders are. If you can come up with a nice logical reason as to why traders are overpowered then bring it up. Else everything your spouting is just garbage they toss out on the OOC channel. Waah Waah Waah. Trader's are uber.

But then again maybe you did try to bring up a logical reason...

Originally posted by Highjack
And, just cause you threw it in I'll add this. For the supposedly all powerful uber and godmode GA IV....hmm...how many classes mean a nearly 100% loss for a GAIV Fixer? Oh, that's right...FOUR. Not a challenge, or 50% loss...a 100% loss at equal levels (Trader, MP, NT, and doctor for the uneducated).

I don't understand that last paragraph. Could you please get your mother to help out with the grammatical flaws?

Originally posted by Highjack

But hey, nerf the **** out of GA if it means BALANCING all the classes.

Wow that almost sounded intelligent...

Originally posted by Highjack
Traders are not balanced. They are not even in perspective for this piece of crap "rock, paper, scissors" profession design FC seems to be going for which is THE WORST GODDAMN WAY TO CREATE BALANCE EVER. In rock, paper, scissor, traders have NO nemesis.

Oops I was wrong.



Thanks HighJack.
Now we know that HighJack didn't take his prozac. Everything makes more sense now. HighJack didn't take his prozac, dueled a trader with his gimpy self, and lost.

That's no reason to base a nerf HighJack. Please take your medication too, k tHx!
Btw, I know people who have dueled and won against high level traders. I myself have killed traders. So I don't see where you are getting this about traders not being killable. Maybe you just need to pvp more.

[Coldstrike]

A GA fixer has about 1/3 "Nemesis" professions, 1/3 that will have a 50/50 chance, and 1/3 that they will kill easily. This applies to most professions in the game right now. The size of the win/even/loose groups vary some from profession to profession, but generally 2-4 professions in each group.

Some professions stand out from this pattern:

Engineer - Will probably not win easily against anyone at all. Other than themself they have few that fall into the 50/50 category, and pretty much everyone will kill them with ease.

Trader - I have yet to see a single profession able to beat the trader most of the time they fight. 2-3 professions have a small chance of beating them, the rest can pretty much forget about it.

So exactly how does this appear to be balanced? Reading through this whole thread I have not yet seen a single reason why this situation should remain unchanged.

Are you afraid of the word nerf? Ask for improvement on other classes instead of nerfs? How about if we say "boost the remaining 11 professions so that they can resist drains"? A boost to one profession is a nerf to all the others.

[________AnotherFixer]

Bunny, without a doubt you deserve a little pointed hat and a seat in the corner. I, as just about every other person with an ounce of intelligence, have proven in many ways how traders are out of balance. Yet, you say we're just making knee-jerk accusations. It seems to be YOU that is making a knee-jerk defense of an indefensible imbalance.

Prove us wrong.


Oh, and as far as going to my mother for help with grammatical mistakes...hmm...yes, very provacative. You pretend to come to the table with rational defenses, yet resort to this. Wipe your nose, get a clue and then leave the conversation to the adults ok kiddie? Its a shame that we can't limit thread responses by morons. Now shoo fly.

[Coldstrike]

Originally posted by MrBunny

Look if that was TRULY the case that traders are overpowered then everyone who wants a trader nerf should also want the following nerfs:

1.) MP Nerf:
reason: They have nano-shut down. So what if a trader debuffs you so you cant use your favourite nano formula? When an MP shuts down your nanos, you get -2000 to your nano skills. That's 5 times worse than a trader debuff.

2.) Doc Nerf:
reason: They can debuff your inits by 1000. This is more than twice a trader debuff. You hit slow, you cast slow. The only thing you can do thats not affected by an init debuff is running away.

3.) Fixer Nerf:
reason: So what if a trader debuffs you? At least you can still hit them. When a fixer dons Grid armor, its just the same as you being debuffed in that you're not able to hit the fixer in question.
Only that the fixer has enhanced themselves to such a point, when compared to you, your virtually debuffed.

1.1 Nano shutdown lasts for 1 minute, not 3
1.2 Nano shutdown does not take away your weapon skills
1.3 Nano shutdown does not include a buff to the MP
1.4 Nano shutdown takes a lot longer to cast than drains
1.5 A MP has a lot weaker offensive abilities than a trader, so your chances of surviving the shutdown are a lot better than against the trader.
1.6 The combination of not loosing 400 to your weapon skills, and also that the MP has half the healing ability (at best) of a trader, means that your chances of actually killing the MP while debuffed by nano shutdown is a lot more real.

2.1 The init debuffs lasts 2 minutes, not 3.
2.2 Being able to cast/shoot at half speed is a lot better than not being able to shoot/cast at all.
2.3 Init buffs does not include a butt to the doc

3.1 Fixers can be nuked for more damage than they can heal over time.
3.2 Fixers can be hit by specials for more damage than they can heal over time.
3.3 GA does not include a debuff on the fixers opponent.

I admit, all the 3 things you mentioned are pretty powerful, but they are nowhere near as powerful as drains.

[Razzitazz]

GA IV, and maybe III, is a tad overpowered, the thing is that its so god foresaken rare that those that have it deserve to be overpowered.

Docs, yeah, the init debuff is overpowered, only because their heals are still at 100%. Docs at high level are pretty much unbeatable. That is, by all but a fixer.


MP have nano shutdown but it is far from overpowered. It is short in duration (compared to doc and trader debuffs) and they don't have uber attack rating or weaon skills.

Trader and doc, 2 classes that are overpowered. I have beaten them both but any good of either will beat anyone.

And Mrbunny, everyone in this game knows that traders are overpowered, check out my poll. A non-combat class shouldn't be the best combat class. And my god, if you are littlebunny the agent it makes your posts even more funny.

[binaural]

Coldstrike > MrBunny

You cannot base your trader views on the fact that you have beaten one with your 150 ma. you cannot really cite specific incidences to prove one class against another.

Traders are "hated" and people cry nerf because since as long as ive been PvP'ing (Read: pretty much day 1) Traders have owned.

at the very beginning of AO there were almost no traders to speak of.. only 1-2 that made themselves visible.. this is irrelivant.

after the soldiers TMS was nerfed and the game settled in a little bit, there were a few more traders... jannerik and cheddar come to mind.. there were more but i forget. There were a small elite group of them owning everyone they fought, but there were only enough to count on one hand so the community didn't notice much.

Then the community DID notice and there were ALOT more traders.. specially twinks. there was a boom, UVC + ithika + drains + roots + incredible heals... this was the traders big time heyday, they owned everyone outright even moreso then now. and this is when the trader hate started.

After the big boom, alot quit thier traders... and there was a steady number of high level ones causing everyone trouble, the low level twinks dominated the low lvl scene... basically traders killed everyone almost all the time.

this is true today, even after heal nerfs.. pvp changes, traders have owned in pvp since the very very beginning, i would know ive been killed by traders through 500 + levels of characters dating back to the beginning of AO.

Another part of it is that they can do what other classes can do but better, they can use smg's, rifles, AR's etc better then any class designed too, they take your hard work making a high lvl character and spit in your face laughing... this is why there are so many trader hate/nerf threads. deal with it. admit your pvp gods and that OVERALL traders are the dominant class in pvp...

[Coldstrike]

Please, no "That one time I fought a trader (<-- Jumped an unprepared trader) I killed him" posts. I want to hear about people who regularly kills traders. Is there a profession that can do this? If not the paper-rock-scissor circle is broken.

[________AnotherFixer]

Piercing, yesterday you say you have no problem killing fixers in GA, now you post GA is overpowered? Interesting.

Since we're 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 in comparison to everyother class in PvP, if we went back to being killed by everyone, would that work for you?

I have an idea. Just bring a trader around everytime someone fights a fixer!

[Necremis]

poster 1- you have no profession that beats you every time, nerf traders

poster 2(trader)- WTF@!@!@ you're and idiot, you suck at playing your class! occasionally an enforcer can beat me!, you're such an idiot, and so wrong, noob


and playing an enf, i've beaten a few traders, but they win most of the time, either NR doesn't work properly cuase 1600 NR shouldn't be divested, but ask Abid how he does it

you have to kill the trader before you're debuffed or it's all over

Solution, not to be confused with nerf =

halve the strength of debuffs, or halve the duration, or make 2 lines of nanos, one for nano debuffs, one for weapon skills

[Razzitazz]

Originally posted by Highjack
Piercing, yesterday you say you have no problem killing fixers in GA, now you post GA is overpowered? Interesting.

Since we're 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 in comparison to everyother class in PvP, if we went back to being killed by everyone, would that work for you?

I have an idea. Just bring a trader around everytime someone fights a fixer!

Where in:

GA IV, and maybe III, is a tad overpowered, the thing is that its so god foresaken rare that those that have it deserve to be overpowered.

did I say I have a problem killing fixers?

You aren't hearing me. You see when we are talking about balance, I understand that a GAIV fixer is very overpowered to most of the classes. The fact that every weapon based professions misses almost every shot is pretty overpowering don't you think? I see that the fact that a NT will ***** smack any fixer in NW is so damn stupid. Its overpowering against fixers. Thats not what this game should be about. BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE!

Were you trying to say that I was posting something then contradicting it?

Instead of trying to prove posts wrong, why don't you post things that either show problems, or suggestions you have to change them.

[Razzitazz]

Originally posted by Highjack
This gets funnier by the moment with each subsequent trader reply.


I'll just address a few things here to keep it rolling.

The last post was damn near the best one yet. SEEMINGLY overpoewered!? LMAO. OK there bunny...which classes can a trader never beat beat at equal level? Hmm...oh...thats right....none.


And, just cause you threw it in I'll add this. For the supposedly all powerful uber and godmode GA IV....hmm...how many classes mean a nearly 100% loss for a GAIV Fixer? Oh, that's right...FOUR. Not a challenge, or 50% loss...a 100% loss at equal levels (Trader, MP, NT, and doctor for the uneducated). But hey, nerf the **** out of GA if it means BALANCING all the classes.

Traders are not balanced. They are not even in perspective for this piece of crap "rock, paper, scissors" profession design FC seems to be going for which is THE WORST GODDAMN WAY TO CREATE BALANCE EVER. In rock, paper, scissor, traders have NO nemesis.

Yes, traders are overpowered, but tell me how the hell you think a doctor can easily beat a trader? Also, tell me how you think a MP can always beat a fixer. Oh I suppose you are referring to NS. Any high level fixer with high NR can dodge a NS at LEAST 50% of the time. NT's as well, A NT without NS MKII can probably NOT beat a GAIV fixer.

[________tavumebottes]

either NR doesn't work properly cuase 1600 NR shouldn't be divested, but ask Abid how he does it

Are u kidding ?
U mean u want to counter all nano ?
it s only one skill that u have to raise, as i have maxed all my evades i don t want to dodge all hit

and yes a good enf have a lot of chance to beat a trader
agent 2 if they have first trike , Ma use to beat us (before the crit nerf)

Mp can be hard they have to lend NSD first
fixer can be hard as we can t kill them without lucky crit before they evac(or run) and they have the 2nd best NR in this game
adv can be a prob with good evade huge shielding dmgs(don t know now cause of the root unbreakable fix)
NT can screw trader but it s very difficult for them (MC moshies and they still nuke well even under one divest and plunder is very hard to lend with their high NR) but most of the time they are easy target for trader


soldier are fresh meat as for a lot of prof
engie crat = same as soldier

all tose statements are duel statement
in mass pvp the debuff part of drain are pretty useless
massroot are more usefull


and do not fight an already fully drainned

[Razzitazz]

Tavumebottes, your list are the professions that might be difficult for you, I'm sure someone like Abid will have a much different list.

[________tavumebottes]

as ?

[-kromoz-]

stop always referring to Abid please, he's very experienced, and shouldn't be considered as a statement for considering trader's strenght
Abid can may be easily beat enforcers, but I can't, so as most of the traders.
same for killing a soldier without draining him, I never could do it and don't see how it's possible, except may be if this soldier never raised duck exp and don't now what TMS means hehe
ok traders are good, but don't make us more good that what we really are please, just to get us nerfed

[____________Kikamiro]

Originally posted by Piercingevil

NT's as well, A NT without NS MKII can probably NOT beat a GAIV fixer.

Before I got NS2 I beat every GA fixer I've fought usually without even putting up NS1. With the exception of the other day getting tag-team-raped by hijack and hunter

[________tavumebottes]

i want to see abid destroying an enf(a good one plz) in an arena
not only one test plz


with the new challenger it s insane
u have to divest him once then root himuntil rage goes off then u have to cast a plunder whith a 1K attack rating debuffed monster which is trying to crush your head

No NS safe breack for us : )