Lets play a game. Traders justify this one.

[MrBunny]

Originally posted by Jynne
What this comes down to is this:

Do you think it should even be possible for any profession to be able to debuff all weapon and nano skills by -400-ish?

Forget resists, forget laddering, forget the trader having "low" skills before draining, forget how many casts or how long a time it takes.

Forget explanations and justifications. Just answer yes or no. Should it even be possible for one profession to debuff all skills to that extent, at all?

I guess by your own reasoning we should nerf doc debuffs too that debuff inits by 1000.

Howabout the debuffs that debuff runspeed by alot more? If that's the case then we should nerf those professions too right?

That's a very sly statement you made about explanations and justifications. People who usually ask for a yes or no answer to a question that needs more than a yes or no answer, seek to justify their own position at the expense of understanding the topic at hand.

Of course no one will answer yes or no. Duh. It will either serve your position or weaken theirs. This isn't about rhetoric this is all about nerfing traders cause of the stereotypical view that traders are uber. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[binaural]

some points id like to make..

1. Traders beat me as a lvl 200 soldier every time if the trader is over level 140.l

2.Many times the trader doesnt even need to drain me to kill me.

3.pvp is supposed to be mass oriented. but at this time, and in the near future it is not. i pvp alot now and everyone is huddled around the arena. 2h0 is dead as well.

4. in mass pvp, those drains are worse then rapid palsy.. come out cast it on 10 omni/clan zone.. you have almost single handedly crippled half the opposing force.

5.Drains need a change in pvp, I can use tactics to beat any proffesion in the game. even a doc i stand a very low chance of winning.. fixers enfs. they can all be beaten. traders cannot.

6. a trader kills every class, everyone one of them, no other class can say that they consistantly kill every class.


The only reason i don't give a crap about traders anymore, is nsince 14.6 i am able to compete with classes liek enfs and fixers as well as nt's agents etc...

Traders remain 100% unkillable, if i see one in mmd or 2h0 i leave, as do others... that should say something in itself.

I know one very experienced clan trader who will pretty much admit to me in tells that drains are a complete joke, he fights one on one without them and still kicks butt.

[Dimmufodr]

Originally posted by MrBunny
I understand this perfectly well.

Someone is using an extreme example in conjunction with a stereotypical view of traders in order to accomplish a nerf.

Correct

Originally posted by MrBunny
When I was level in the 170's I was quite capable of killing a level 150 trader after being debuffed completely by said trader. So either I am just obviously extremely uber or the 180's people in question are gimps. I am not that uber. So it has to be that the people in question are gimps.

Maybe that have something to do with you being able to ladder up drains on the other trader and compensate for your loss of skills??? I have 1150 in att rating and after being double drained I was down below 700, and that actually makes me a gimp (or should I say more of a gimp than I am).

[Jynne]

Originally posted by MrBunny


I guess by your own reasoning we should nerf doc debuffs too that debuff inits by 1000.

Howabout the debuffs that debuff runspeed by alot more? If that's the case then we should nerf those professions too right?

That's a very sly statement you made about explanations and justifications. People who usually ask for a yes or no answer to a question that needs more than a yes or no answer, seek to justify their own position at the expense of understanding the topic at hand.

Of course no one will answer yes or no. Duh. It will either serve your position or weaken theirs. This isn't about rhetoric this is all about nerfing traders cause of the stereotypical view that traders are uber. Nothing more. Nothing less.

It's about the bottom line. You're the one spouting rhetoric. Now answer Yes or no. None of this "maybe" crap, or the BS about "look at what they have."

Yes or no. Are drains, in themselves, overpowered?

[Grupert]

Originally posted by Jynne
What this comes down to is this:

Do you think it should even be possible for any profession to be able to debuff all weapon and nano skills by -400-ish?

Forget resists, forget laddering, forget the trader having "low" skills before draining, forget how many casts or how long a time it takes.

Forget explanations and justifications. Just answer yes or no. Should it even be possible for one profession to debuff all skills to that extent, at all?

No more over powered than 100% healing, or your debuffs, or MP debuffs......
Under FP/Agent, I have had no problems sending traders to the reclaim.

[______________Insida]

Traders drain are too much, way too powerful. NR or not, they will eventually land and thats when you lose the fight. When I fight traders I get the upper hand until Plunder land. When that **** land, I cant even touch them anymore, but thats not my problem since my damage is **** too. I feel like fighting vs a fixer but w/out my weapons. Atleast if they couldnt heal or root.. But they really got it all. Mass PvP they really die fast but who care! Everyone die fast when 10 ppl are alpha'ing you! Something need to be done against trader. Double NR check and half the effect of drains. Traders are both killer and support.. wtf is that..

[_____________Schwank]

Well thank you for all the attention in this matter.
In regard to my buffs yes i was runnin outside buffs, but so was every other 160-200 lvl person that fled north to the safety of Mort. =)
And as far as nerfing traders goes, i 100% agree with you, thats why i name my trader "Nerfmeee"
P.S. He was lvl 118 when he killed Eedaba and Coldstrike, and made countless others zone, or grid themselves in whiny Highjacks case =)

[Jynne]

50% healing wouldn't change much, but people don't seem to get that. If I get a 10k heal, a 5k heal, or heck a 50k heal when I'm at 40-50% health I'm going to be healed to full. Any healing that's left over is just wasted, doesn't do anything. CH could heal 100k hitpoints per cast, it would not matter. 89k to 95k of that wouldn't go anywhere because nobody has the hipoints for it, not even buffed up atrox enforcers.

The init debuffs have to be big, because you need to move 600 points of initiative off someone in order to shift their weapon's attack speed by a full second.

Nano skill debuffs only have to move you 1 point lower than the requirements of your nano to screw you up. -100 here is plenty strong enough to make people switch to 'second line' nanoprograms.

Weapon skill debuffs only have to move 20% of your skill to OE your weapon. -200 here is plenty to OE most people to 75% effective. People who can absorb -200 to their weapon skills, deserve to fight without going OE.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Dimmufodr

Maybe that have something to do with you being able to ladder up drains on the other trader and compensate for your loss of skills??? I have 1150 in att rating and after being double drained I was down below 700, and that actually makes me a gimp (or should I say more of a gimp than I am).

My attack rating is around 800 before I start to drain. It's around 1150 when I get both divest (advanced) and plunder (advanced) running, which requires 3 drains (divest -> divest (advanced) -> plunder (advanced)). I need at least normal divest running to have access to a decent heal.

I'm not saying that traders are weak... just that the play style is different. In my opinion, the people that *always* lose to traders are generally people that are unprepared for fighting with debuffs.

[-kromoz-]

Originally posted by Highjack

So, look at it this way traders, what is your goal in AO? Are you tired of no one wanting to fight you one on one?

No, I never duel and hate arenas, I hope notum war will bring more team pvp

Originally posted by Highjack

Are you tired of being killed first in this so called "Team PvP" world?

No, I enjoy being chassed

Originally posted by Highjack

What if you were actually balanced?

we actually are balanced in mass pvp, not in 1vs1, and 1vs1 will never be balanced, cuz we don't play chess but a massively multiplayer game

Originally posted by Highjack

Wouldn't it be better to take part in more equal, enjoyable PvP, or are you really just the group of people you've been stereotyped as for the past year; bandwagon, Kewl Doodz that just want to be the most "uber" kids on the block?

what I want is MA getting their crits back, soldiers I don't know, better buffs/weapons or TMS boosting nano-resist, well I hope you get my point : some profs are getting pvp-love in notum war (NT, engie, soldiers will get an anti-complete heal nano), that's the way to go, they need more

a big problem is that you get pvp titles in 1vs1, not in team pvp
FC should either allow it, or remove pvp titles, then I hope we would hear less arena-cryers whining on this forum

[Famousduck]

Originally posted by Dimmufodr

I have 1150 in att rating and after being double drained I was down below 700, and that actually makes me a gimp (or should I say more of a gimp than I am).

There is no way that your attack rating goes from 1150 to 700, thats a 450 point drain. That isnt the way it works. MAYBE if you got drained for the max of 355 I think it is, you would have an atr of right at 800. Thats what Traders attack rating is unbuffed. So it should be fair for you to have a 1150 attack rating against a traders 800? Selfish to say the least.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Jynne

Yes or no. Are drains, in themselves, overpowered?

What exactly is the point of this question? Nothing in the game stands alone, so judging one nano line without considering the big picture is foolish.

I'm willing to accept that drains may be overpowered (though I don't believe they are). I do think it's a bit messed up that I can go fully drain a mob to get +348 then have a duel. I just started dueling recently (not much else since the omni seem to have vacated RK1), and I die a lot to most professions... if I was to run out and drain ahead of time, I'd slaughter pretty much anyone (including enforcers).

It seems to me that the main legitimate gripe you all have here is that traders frequently pre-drain. If this is the case, I can sympathize with your position. If you are going after our drains purely because you don't like being debuffed... well, frankly, this is an aspect of the game you're going to have to deal with and fighting it is silly.

[aaronb]

Divest (Advanced) + Plunder (Advanced) does +348 for the trader and -415 for the opponent. Just to clear it up.

[aaronb]

Also, I'm not sure if even a nanomage trader can open with divest (advanced) at level 200. So to get both of the top drains running on you, it requires at least three executions.

[____________Meligant]

Originally posted by Jynne
50% healing wouldn't change much, but people don't seem to get that. If I get a 10k heal, a 5k heal, or heck a 50k heal when I'm at 40-50% health I'm going to be healed to full. Any healing that's left over is just wasted, doesn't do anything. CH could heal 100k hitpoints per cast, it would not matter. 89k to 95k of that wouldn't go anywhere because nobody has the hipoints for it, not even buffed up atrox enforcers.

The init debuffs have to be big, because you need to move 600 points of initiative off someone in order to shift their weapon's attack speed by a full second.

Nano skill debuffs only have to move you 1 point lower than the requirements of your nano to screw you up. -100 here is plenty strong enough to make people switch to 'second line' nanoprograms.

Weapon skill debuffs only have to move 20% of your skill to OE your weapon. -200 here is plenty to OE most people to 75% effective. People who can absorb -200 to their weapon skills, deserve to fight without going OE.

This is the most common sense I’ve seen all day. Fully describes why Drains overly effect Nano abilities compared to Weapon abilities. Not that anyone is asking for them to be nerfed again in PvP.

[Jynne]

Asmoran, the point was that given the effects of drains on skills, under our skill system where being 1 short of a requirement will prevent you from casting a nano, and being 20% short on a weapon will make it do 25% less damage, are they or are they not overpowered abilities?

For example. I'm a level 163 doctor. If I get hit with -200 to my nano skills, I have to use nanos I outgrew something like 50 levels ago. In fact, if I get hit for just -100 I'll have to switch to nanos I used 20 or 30 levels ago.

If I get hit by -415 my highest nano skills are cut, quite literally, in half. I'm reduced to nanos I used during title 3. The fact is, if that second drain lands the fight is over.

For weapons, well, I use MA so I'm a PvP gimp anyway But if I were set up for PvPing and used an Ithaca, at -200 I'd be 25% OE and at -415 I'd be 50% OE.

It's not that I don't like being debuffed - who does? It's that skill debuffs of -415 are far beyond an annoyance, and beyond a mere disadvantage. They are crippling. Once they both land, your options are run, or die. In a duel you can't fight back, in mass PvP you can't help your comrades.

Init debuffs are nasty, yes. And I don't like having one on me in the slightest. Especially because they usually get there when I screw up and self-cast it But an init debuff isn't the end of your effectiveness. Stacked drains are.

[Nublets]

I would just like to point out that i made you zone in 2ho during all this fiasco... So while you root me and zone to heal, then come back out to fight again fully buffed and recharged. Just trying to figure out why you LOL when i said *($% this and zoned into bunker? Was it cause i had you beat the first go around and didnt feel like playing your games anymore?

But yeah, Traders are to be feared 1v1.

Nubs

[newarival]

LMFAO

[aaronb]

Jynne,

As a doctor, you're used to fights lasting for a little while. Doctors really shine in long drawn-out fights. The same applies to Traders... and in a long fight, we have the opportunity to get our drains running.

With the exception of Doctors, my duels are usually over in the time it takes to get laddered up. When I win, it's because I managed to survive long enough to get my drains running. Killing a Trader needs to be done quickly specifically for that reason. As a Doctor, you have far less ability to kill a Trader quickly than most other professions.

I typically know in the first 10 seconds of a fight if I'm going to win or not. If my first divest is resisted, there's a good chance I'm going to lose (there are exceptions, of course). If my first divest lands and my opponent immediately switches to an alternate speedbar (usually obvious with heavy nano users), I know it'll be an even fight. If in the latter case, they resist my first plunder, then I don't expect to win. If I get my first (or second) divest off and my opponent seems to fumble around a bit (like backing away slightly or turning), then I am pretty sure I'm going to win.

Honestly, I don't typically lose to Doctors. It simply takes Doctors too long to do damage... and in that time, I can get the highest drains running on you.


Now, in regards to the effects of the drains on your skills... please understand that we start out as if we had a drain running on us. It takes a divest to get my skills up to where I can use nanos that are even remotely comparable to yours. This is why I say you can't take the effect itself and judge drains based on them. I don't have green nano (or weapon) skills at all -- plus, the requirements on our nanos are built with drains in mind.

[SS_]

Originally posted by newarival
LMFAO

pretty much sums it up