-[[Team PVP]]- the Way of the Future

[tarldarquist]

Ok, I'm new to the PVP forum - I usually attend the Doc Forum.
One thing we doc's seem to talk about alot is Solo PVP vs. Team PVP. So I was very much surprised to see that here in the main PVP forum almost all of the talking (and yes yes whining) seems to be from a Solo PVP viewpoint. I would suggest, and Funcom's own stated viewpoint suggests that Team PVP should be our focus. Thus, maybe we could help Funcom make PVP better by checking our comments against this when we suggest nerfs, compare classes, and make posts.

My posts tend to be long winded to cover every possible objection, and I'm trying to keep this short but I do have some obvious things that need to be noted:

1. For Team PVP to work, TITLES need to still work when we are teamed. (this is the biggest reason people dont team in pvp) I heard mention that this was fixed -- can anyone confim?

2. Many MANY things that are bad for classes in Solo PVP are actually helpful in Team PVP. Example: Doc Heals, (unless you're a doc), Think about it.

3. Many MANY things that are good for classes in Solo PVP are actually harmful in Team PVP. Example: Short Fights.
Think about it.

Please don't focus on my Example points. Focus on making PVP discussions oriented to Team PVP. (Massive Battles)

(I'm not saying PVP is good now just that maybe some of us are being short-sighted in how we approach it)
-Meebs

[stromm]

Originally posted by Meebo
Ok, I'm new to the PVP forum - I usually attend the Doc Forum.
One thing we doc's seem to talk about alot is Solo PVP vs. Team PVP. So I was very much surprised to see that here in the main PVP forum almost all of the talking (and yes yes whining) seems to be from a Solo PVP viewpoint. I would suggest, and Funcom's own stated viewpoint suggests that Team PVP should be our focus. Thus, maybe we could help Funcom make PVP better by checking our comments against this when we suggest nerfs, compare classes, and make posts.

My posts tend to be long winded to cover every possible objection, and I'm trying to keep this short but I do have some obvious things that need to be noted:

1. For Team PVP to work, TITLES need to still work when we are teamed. (this is the biggest reason people dont team in pvp) I heard mention that this was fixed -- can anyone confim?

2. Many MANY things that are bad for classes in Solo PVP are actually helpful in Team PVP. Example: Doc Heals, (unless you're a doc), Think about it.

3. Many MANY things that are good for classes in Solo PVP are actually harmful in Team PVP. Example: Short Fights.
Think about it.

Please don't focus on my Example points. Focus on making PVP discussions oriented to Team PVP. (Massive Battles)

(I'm not saying PVP is good now just that maybe some of us are being short-sighted in how we approach it)
-Meebs

Short fights in solo pvp is even better for team pvp. People are supposed to die faster in war.

I sure don't remember reading anywhere about an allied medic in a shootout with a german medic for 59 minutes and 10 seconds. I heard of battles that took hours and thousands of people died in them. Oh wait silly me, AO is 28,000 years later technology is more advanced isn't it? hehe :S Fast deaths is what makes war fun keep title lust out of the battlefield and let 'em stay in the arena i say.

[tarldarquist]

Hmm.. Stromm can you please edit your post and remove the entire quote of my thread? Its just a waste of space since its a reply and the post will be above your thread anyway right? Its best to use the quote feature to pull out individual statements not the whole post.

I think your logic is flawed. You compare AO to WW2 to make your point that 2 medics fighting shouldnt take 59mins. But if the two (AO and WW2) were comparable then you would also have to say that short death is not fun in AO, just like short death was not fun in WW2 (being totally literal), and that Dragon's dont exist in AO because dragons didnt exist in WW2. Also let me clarify my idea of "Long" vs "Short" Currently in Team or Mass PVP almost every class who gets alpha'd by 6 strong enemies dies in 1-20s. My idea of "Long" is 1-2 minutes if that (enough to DO something about it). But my biggest problem with your arguement is that you use a Doc vs Doc illustration in SOLO PVP (the 59s bit) precisely the kind of arguement im saying is counterproductive to the future of AO because it wont apply to Team pvp. Finally you replied to my examples instead of the idea of Team PVP over Solo PVP.

Also why pvp in AO if you want quick deaths? I could go play Quake3 if I wanted quick deaths, the engine is 5000% better and I don't have to level for 4 months to gain skills. No, mmorpgs are most entertaining when we get Team strategy, not a fragfest. Also this is a Fantasy Game, not a sim, and as such has elements that are non-scientific (like dragons!) and should at some point (i know alot of it isnt) be fun. (although yes fragfests CAN be fun, but they do get old quickly)

As to your title lust thing, its one opinion I somewhat share but it goes against Funcom's stated goals for PVP.

[Sethil]

I would also like to see PvP more team oriented instead of the dueling ****. FC decided to make fights last longer, reduced crit in PvP, made the 40% cap, reduced damage by 50% and that seems to be a good choice finally.

It would be totally pointless if you go on a battle field and you die in about 2 sec, because everyone unloads their clip on you. But especially this can happen. I.e. I gridded into 2ho, see a clanner fighting an omni, omni at 80-90%, I alpha'd him, omni dead.
Alphas can be very powerfull if you time them right. Start attack, let the bar go full up, Burst, FA, regular shot, and while you reload, a 2nd regular shot, which all together can be more than 80% in about 3 sec. Ok, this target was an opifex agent, but I can alpha on 12k HP enforcer and bring them down to 50% and if I would switch my gun to a Supernova, he would be at 10% HP in less than 10 sec. with the Burst, FA, AS and 2 regular shots. Ok, this depends a bit on how lucky you hit with the FA.

I cant remember how often I killed unlucky targets in mass PvP in 2ho, wounded with about 60-80% Hps left just with my alpha.

But this ability to kill targets in a short time leaves the victim really disappointed. You cant do any tactic when you get down in seconds. The only tactic you can overthink is: How can I avoid the line of fire or how can I get a better defensive to survive longer.

And thats the point - the ability to defend or to evade should be much better in this game. Make the defensive tactics equal to aggressive tactics.
After the last patches I noticed some changes in the agg/def balance to the better of the defense. This let me hope, that FC goes the right way and that there is more time for tactics in future. I dont really need frags like in Quake and you can also win a fight when you force your opponent to escape. Especially Notum Wars doesnt depend on dead bodies around you, while you conquer the Notum mine. Force your opponent to escape, destroy their towers, make them weak, build your own and you win. Thats it.

Watching the reclaim terminal for a few minutes isnt fun for everyone, so everyone should get at least the possibility to escape... not everytime, but often enough that you dont lose the fun of combat.

[Razzitazz]

Duels are fun. Throw out this rock, paper, scissors thing -- no one likes it. Funcom says that full balance can never be aquired, that is true. But they should keep trying.

More balance, less "nemisis" crap

[Palmero]

Originally posted by Piercingevil
Duels are fun. Throw out this rock, paper, scissors thing -- no one likes it. Funcom says that full balance can never be aquired, that is true. But they should keep trying.

More balance, less "nemisis" crap

i agre 100%

[tarldarquist]

Piercingevil. I must admit I don't understand your response. Could you please elaborate? I'm not saying duels arent fun, I'm saying they're no longer the focus of PVP. Do you not like Team PVP? If no maybe its because Team PVP sucks at the moment, Precisely because people keep yelling Nerf this and Nerf that after an unfair duel, and these nerfs have been Solo PVP based.
Personally I enjoy a duel, mostly because my class is very hard to beat in a duel. I don't disagree with your reply, I just don't know what you mean by your post. Do you agree/disagree? By rock/paper/scissors do you mean PVP is too simplified and you want it to be more strategic?

I totally agree with your "more balance" statement though. Even if we'll never succeed at being perfect at anything, greatness can be achieved and should be strived for. Not so sure what Nemesis crap is tho - help me out so I understand what you're saying.

Sethil, thanks for spending the time to explain how you feel, I very much agree with your its time to focus on defensive skills thoughts. Especially coming from a Soldier.

-Meebs

[Sethil]

With rock/paper/scissors its meant: Rock beats Scissors, Scissors beats Paper and Paper beats Rock. This is how PvP currently works in AO. Trader beats Soldier, Soldier beats MP, MP beats Doc, Doc beats........ whatever. Not that easy as it shows in this example, but you get the point?

[isbilen]

Originally posted by Sethil
With rock/paper/scissors its meant: Rock beats Scissors, Scissors beats Paper and Paper beats Rock. This is how PvP currently works in AO. Trader beats Soldier, Soldier beats MP, MP beats Doc, Doc beats........ whatever. Not that easy as it shows in this example, but you get the point?

Rock beats everything, duh!

[Razzitazz]

Yeah sure Meebo, I'll try to elaborate some. You see, Funcom has decided that soldier will beat doc, NT will be fixer, fixer will beat enforcer for example. This is kind of silly because I know there are docs that don't want to die by soldiers, fixers that don't want to die by NT's, etc. Its a big cop out just to add nanos that demolish other players, this is why the trader was hated in PvP for so long. Every class should have advantages and disadvantages against everyone. Hell, right now I deal with dying from alphas and getting debuffed if that will make Funcom from making this change.

As for team vs. solo pvp. Well I do both, and sometimes solo is just more fun. Funcom servers cannot handle mass PvP very well. Now I hardly ever lag in 2h0, but camelot is a joke.

The war zones suck right now, this will change in NW, but right now Tir arena is a gank/zone fest. 2h0 is a bunker hop. Camelot is a lag fest.

Right now there are tons of good reasons to do both. I still solo pvp to show that I can stand up one on one, and not just zone out, AE nuke, and run away when NS goes up like I do in 2HO.

[_____________Brandon]

-[[Balanced 1-on-1 PVP]]- the Way of the Future

Dont make it Rock-Paper-Scissors.... Make it balanced!

[stromm]

Originally posted by Meebo
Hmm.. Stromm can you please edit your post and remove the entire quote of my thread? Its just a waste of space since its a reply and the post will be above your thread anyway right? Its best to use the quote feature to pull out individual statements not the whole post.

I think your logic is flawed. You compare AO to WW2 to make your point that 2 medics fighting shouldnt take 59mins. But if the two (AO and WW2) were comparable then you would also have to say that short death is not fun in AO, just like short death was not fun in WW2 (being totally literal), and that Dragon's dont exist in AO because dragons didnt exist in WW2. Also let me clarify my idea of "Long" vs "Short" Currently in Team or Mass PVP almost every class who gets alpha'd by 6 strong enemies dies in 1-20s. My idea of "Long" is 1-2 minutes if that (enough to DO something about it). But my biggest problem with your arguement is that you use a Doc vs Doc illustration in SOLO PVP (the 59s bit) precisely the kind of arguement im saying is counterproductive to the future of AO because it wont apply to Team pvp. Finally you replied to my examples instead of the idea of Team PVP over Solo PVP.

Also why pvp in AO if you want quick deaths? I could go play Quake3 if I wanted quick deaths, the engine is 5000% better and I don't have to level for 4 months to gain skills. No, mmorpgs are most entertaining when we get Team strategy, not a fragfest. Also this is a Fantasy Game, not a sim, and as such has elements that are non-scientific (like dragons!) and should at some point (i know alot of it isnt) be fun. (although yes fragfests CAN be fun, but they do get old quickly)

As to your title lust thing, its one opinion I somewhat share but it goes against Funcom's stated goals for PVP.

In mass pvp people only die in 3 secs when everyone has their specials loaded. once those are used up on one person a fight lasts longer, so the first man to be targetted will be the unlucky one.. Also AO is a much more complex game and the skill system is what makes pvp fun and it isolates it from a simple HUD of one man toting a machinegun, dying and coming back. Either way, quick kills should be a highlight of mass pvp since it is, after all 'mass' and the players succeed when they agree to attack one target together and move onto the next. Imho, this is still not any example of 'war' since in real team combat you'd think you could split up your forces, having one person attacking another, 2 attacking one, etc based on what prof they are but with 100% heals that isn't possible. It just doesn't seem much team to me when the idea is simply all attacking one person, something so basic when in reality team pvp would be attacking the other team not just a single person of the opposing faction. 100% damage days, that felt a lot like war to me because you could team with a buddy and fight off multiple people depending on how strong your character was and you wouldnt need to team up on one for 2-3 minutes to kill them, sometimes even longer depending on the profession in the current state. I think 100% damage wouldnt be such a bad idea these days with reflect and AC and stuff. gotta keep in mind 100% damage was nerfed before there was a lot of high levels..... Team pvp, in theory won't work with such reduced damage in this game. But i could be wrong i'll just have to wait until notum wars comes out just like everyone else

But as far as you suggesting team pvp, was that your suggested idea in progress when you CHed every omni under attack in mmd last night? :P

[________Garzu-perman]

I dont care at all for team pvp, 1vs1 is all that counts for me, and thats how it should be balanced, 1 vs 1.

Then we can team pvp..