About "Abmouth Supremus" (Tune him down a bit maybe?)

[Bionitrous]

Nice to see he's turning into a super-twink big-guild loot-dispenser.

Yep, I'm working on twinking a couple level 24's to the gills to work on harvesting this guy.

Wouldn't have to do that if he were killable by a normal team of 19-25's that you'd form be actually 'doing' the dungeon.

Once again, it's like pulling teeth. Just because some super-twinked level-retarded alts with 200 tokens at 24 can kill something doesn't mean you have to spoil the fun of the normal people.

I'd much rather give my money to normal human beings to let them have fun and get me a ring. But, seeing as normal human beings have been excluded from killling this guy, I have to resort to going in with my death squad all Behemouthed and RRFE'd.

[_____Real Kinky Ityn]

God I'm so sick of eveyone trying to nurf this game into retard mode. Someone dies once and all of a sudden the game is too hard and a POS. If this game get's any easier I'll just have my cat play it for me, or maybe Funcom can let us macro, so I can just go to bed and come back a few levels higher, send a shout to GC, "Ding" and bask in my GRATZ!

[Jayde]

Originally posted by Drabin
He's not hard to take down when its easy to get buffed with a small group.

Level 24 NT (NCU at 91 / obtainable with comp lit imps, max comp lit, and expertise)
--Max Evades
--Max Assault rifle skills and similar to use a flashpoint
--Get Behemoth, Doc buff (takes health to 1800 to 2100 at level 24)
--OR get behemoth, small doc buff and MC mastery.

Perhaps I'm being too bold, but that is waaay hard in noob terms.

Fact:
Most noobs have < 20 NCU

Fact:
Most noobs don't even know what evades are

Fact:
Most noobs don't have a pocket high-level Enforcer or Doc to quintuple their HP.

Fact:
Noob: Alpha? WTF is an Alpha? I'm still using my Kolt than dropped off a mob three rooms back.

Fact:
Not every team has 3 Docs and a twinked out level 28 Enforcer to tank the boss.

I could go on and on about aspects to beating this boss that new players have no clue about....

For the record, I don't think the boss should be a cakewalk...I simply don't think it should take a team of twinked out, high-level buffed, experienced players to beat it. It should be difficult, but possible, for a full team of complete newbies to beat with a little effort.

There is simply no way a team of compelte, non-twinked new players will ever beat this boss in its current form.

Also consider that this dungeon is meant to be semi self-contained with shops, armor, etc... Yet it does not have implants or nanos available to it. It is very easy for a new player who has jaunted over to the subway after the level 5 invite to level past 25 without getting any huge number of nanos or implants at all. (Which, I assume, is why all the Expertises drop--which is a really nice touch IMO.)

The whole dungeon is WONDERFUL for a new player, UNTIL the final boss. The final boss is dispropotionatly hard to the rest of the dungeon, and really only beatable by experience players with tons of tweaking/twinking and outside buffs.

Getting Behemoth and Doc Buff is not a viable technique for new players. It is very silly to even consider it balance-wise. Most new players have 400 HP by then, if that. The boss will kill a new player with little to moderate experience of the game in 2 of its double-hits.

This should also not be like high-level antics where they have to search out MPs, Enforcers, and Traders to buff them just to survive. Nor should they have to track down 3 Docs just to keep a tank with NORMAL HP (lol Heck, not many noobs even know what a tank is ) healed.

It's also amusing that a boss that takes at least a full team--probably more if they're non-twinks...2 or 3 teams maybe lol--only drops 1 or 2 items of any intrest whatsoever. How exactly are they supposed to share the spoils? (That problem exists on all the sub-bosses too...as they usually only drop 1 or 2 items at all, and 1-0 interesting items depending on your luck.)

All in all, the boss is really just a mini Tarasque. It takes a bunch of uber twinks to beat, noobs have no chance of participating to any decent level, and it drops far less items than people required to kill it.

If view as a uber boss for hardcore players to tackle, it is fine. I could get a well-orginized full team a twinks together to kill the guy and probably do it rather easily. However, my experiences with me being the only twink (and not terribly bad of one, either) in a full team of new players has shown that the intended audience of the dungeon (NEW PLAYERS) is being left with a bitter taste because it's nearly impossible for them to "beat" the dungeon.

No, he shouldn't drop in 5 seconds. Yes, he should be possible for a team of 5-6 new players.

-Jayde

[Bionitrous]

Originally posted by Ityn
God I'm so sick of eveyone trying to nurf this game into retard mode. Someone dies once and all of a sudden the game is too hard and a POS. If this game get's any easier I'll just have my cat play it for me, or maybe Funcom can let us macro, so I can just go to bed and come back a few levels higher, send a shout to GC, "Ding" and bask in my GRATZ!

Did you try this guy? I had a level 19 or so Advy with his 3rd or 4th token board and level 50 implants and some real nice pre-nerf Freedom Arms and twinked out armor and around 100 or so pre-trader Frequent Customer-nerf NCU's free croak in 4 hits in a team of 5 true-newbies.

The point being that I should now have to try to get into level 70 or 90 implants and get 2 Mochams running for heals or perhaps the top level Engineer damage shield and RRFE running to help a team of true newbies to the game actually enjoy their final day in the subway before they are never allowed to return and get revenge.

I can afford to do this. I can afford to keep a character at 24 forever for the sole purpose of helping lowbies down there to be able to accomplish something they should be able to accomplish as part of the natural progression of the game.

It shouldn't have to be this way. Why should this guy be balanced to beat me and 5 guildies who drop a couple million each on a group of 6 'Abmouth Killers'? So the experience is ruined for normal people because the boss is balanced for people with experience like myself or whoever was charged with testing this thing?

Kinda like intercourse without climax. The Subway is great until the end where you are guaranteed to get killed if you ain't a twink and you can never go back.

[Nullifax]

Originally posted by Ityn
God I'm so sick of eveyone trying to nurf this game into retard mode. Someone dies once and all of a sudden the game is too hard and a POS. If this game get's any easier I'll just have my cat play it for me, or maybe Funcom can let us macro, so I can just go to bed and come back a few levels higher, send a shout to GC, "Ding" and bask in my GRATZ!

I understand the need for challenge and I sympathize with your frustration at the simplification of the game. HOWEVER, you have completely lost the point of this dungeon. The subways are meant for newbs. When I say newbs, I mean NEW not simply LOW. Players who are new to the game have absolutely positively 0% chance of defeating this boss. Hell, even if 2 full teams of newbs went up against him, I'd bet a sizable wad of cash that they'd get creamed. That means, newbs, not twinked lowbies, not even experienced non-twinked lowbies. I mean newbs.

Steps of Madness and up I can understand keeping the difficulty higher, but the Subways are truly meant for players completely new to the game. Do I think he should be easy? No, not for a bunch of newbs. However, a group of twinks should be able to knock him down as if he were nothing. Balancing the boss based on ubertwinks and veteran tactics just creates frustration for the people the dungeon was actually meant for in the first place. This dungeon is supposed to hook new players into the game by giving them a visually stunning area and challenging but killable mobs. This dungeon was not added to make uber high level players roll twink lowbies. You know, all your twinking and whining that playing your twinks isn't "challenging" enough has completely ruined the game for people who are new, like to solo, or like to roleplay. Next time content is added for new players, do everyone a favor keep your twinks the %^$& out, or at the very least, sthu about "challenge."

[_____________Nalissa]

Originally posted by Jayde
For the record, I took a team of level 24 toons to the boss 3 times and never even got close to winning. Using tactics many of us has developed in months and months of playing the game.

N00bs stand no chance at beating the boss in its current form.

I think the trick is that you shouldn't be using the same tactics - you should be using new ones.

Anything in the game is do-able. You just have to figure out how.

Kiting is great, but it was a tactic specifically developed to deal with a specific situation. It doesn't work at all versus many boss mobs in the game. The point here is that tactics are merely tools. You don't use the wrong tool for the job.

[Nullifax]

Originally posted by Nalissa


I think the trick is that you shouldn't be using the same tactics - you should be using new ones.

Anything in the game is do-able. You just have to figure out how.

Kiting is great, but it was a tactic specifically developed to deal with a specific situation. It doesn't work at all versus many boss mobs in the game. The point here is that tactics are merely tools. You don't use the wrong tool for the job.

The point is that this is a boss in a dungeon meant for people completely new to the game. As such, the tactics required to defeat him should be fairly simple in order to make him actually defeatable by the people the dungeon is targetted at.

[Jayde]

Originally posted by Nalissa


I think the trick is that you shouldn't be using the same tactics - you should be using new ones.

Anything in the game is do-able. You just have to figure out how.

Kiting is great, but it was a tactic specifically developed to deal with a specific situation. It doesn't work at all versus many boss mobs in the game. The point here is that tactics are merely tools. You don't use the wrong tool for the job.

Let's see... Melee boss, not invulnurable to roots, obstacles in a large room... Seems like a situation where kiting would be perfectly viable--certainly a LOT more viable than just standing there and tanking. (Which is impossible without twinked heals, a high-level essence and/or doc HP buff.)

If you'd like to impart some of your wisdom as to what "new" tactics you would use on the boss (that don't invole going out and getting tons of high-level buffs and/or twinking your character to the hilt) go right ahead--I'm open to suggestion.

Also, remember.. This dungeon is not for ME. It's not even for YOU. It's for new players. If my well-developed uber-boss fighting tactics don't work, I'm sure that fresh out of the backyard tactics are gonna work wooonders.

Tell me, which tool would you use for this job? Then ask yourself... How feasible is it for a pickup team of first-week noobs to implement or figure out.

I'm not posting really because I wasn't able to beat it--because I could gather all my friends and totally twink out--but because of the dissapointment in all the noobs who died the four times I tried it.

The obvious part is that once I fell, everyone else on the team was back at reclaim by the time my white screen faded. I managed to hold out for a long time with double-stacked level 25 HoTs, kiting, healing (had a doc and advent in the team the first run), QL 53 implants, etc... The moment I died, the boss wasted all the true newbies in a matter of seconds. That's just not right.

-Jayde

[_____________DrVixen]

I'm gonna hafta agree with the people that actually know what they are talking about.

Abemouth is for twinks only. Even a full team of 6 level 24 newbies will get CRUSHED. They'd all be looking at reclaim in about 20-30 seconds, and then they'd wonder what the hell they did wrong. Sadly, the only thing they did wrong was expect a newbie-sized boss at the end of the newbie dungeon.

In a lot of ways, the subway dungeon can be viewed as a tidy microcosm of Anarchy Online in toto. Like the subway, you get all the eye candy and fun at first, and then, once you really get into it, you find the game really just revolves around ub3r ph4t l00tz, twinking, and camping...and all the associated unpleasantness that goes along with it.

So perhaps Abemouth is, in fact, an appropriate case study for n00bs after all.

But if you want to make a boss truly appropriate for the target subway audience (ie, a NEW player), he needs to be adjusted a touch. If you want to continue to heavily support the AO tradition of twinking and camping, leave him as is.

- DrVixen

[____Senatorgrag / BI]

And once you get killed and you want to go back but you can't.
Cuz your level is over the level restriction already. Unless you find a crat to mezz all the way down to there without killing anything on your way. Then you'd die again at the boss.

Suggestion: I'd say adjust the level restriction to say, 35 would be much more better for newbies to have chance laying hands on this uber boss..

[Marodex]

I made a doctor just for this dungeon and I never twinked the char. I gave the char 2 millions at the beginning thats true. I will get back to that part soon though.

First time I saw Abmouth was 17, we took a shot at him with a full team and got him to 60% when he decided to open a can of whoopass on me. One way ticket to reclaim terminal.

After that I lost another 4 times to him but slowly you got a picture of him.

In our last try my doc was 21, our team was 17-24 and noone was twinked. Hell I had money on me but I had that only for the nanos I would need till ql 50 (100k left on him now) and also I had the shop designed implants in him and his armor was what I looted in Subway. He didnt even have any sleeves because I never found any there. So there I was with living cyber armor, some ql 9 chest piece and ql 8 nail armor boots.

Rest of my team wasnt any different but once we were at him we didnt blindly charge. We sat there for 5 minutes and discussed our past fights and then came up with a battle plan.

We beat the living **** out of him without loosing even 1 player. It was the best feeling I ever had in AO and you had a sense of accomplishment for killing one such tough npc. We were all freaking out when he finally died (because last try I had failed with some of them at like 1% hp).

There is no need for it to be tuned down and it actually helps a lot to evaluate the team work feeling that is not needed anywhere else in whole AO...yet...

About the lvl 35 suggestion. Big fat no. After reaching 24 I decided I would stay inside and keep leveling till I died or got bored due to low xp. With lvl 30 more then half of the dungeon is grey to you. With 26 you start getting lots of grey and with 28 you already think if you should leave because it doesn't make sense for you to really stay. 24 was a perfect balance where barely anything is grey yet everything but Abmouth is easy to kill.

I am done with Subway now being lvl 28 on my doc but it was the best time I had in AO exploring that place without having any spoilers at hand.

[Jayde]

lol

That was funny reading this:

I made a doctor just for this dungeon and I never twinked the char. I gave the char 2 millions at the beginning thats true.

Apparently giving a character more money than they can ever earn normally by level 80 or 90 (for most players) right off the bat isn't considered "twinking" any more.

-Jayde

[Bionitrous]

http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...name/subwaydoc

http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac.../name/subwayma

'nuff said.

[Nival]

Originally posted by Kenlon
Nah, went down there myself, that boss is easily doable if:

The team works together.

The team has a coherent strategy.

The team LISTENS.



Wonderful training ground.

wow! a dream team! never been in one

[Romaker]

I was down there with my crat and 3 others a lvl 22doc 23ma my crat was 21. Well we made it to boss and picked up a 23soldier there. Well all we did was talk about how we would do this and the conclusion we did was I the crat sat back sent pet to tank my pet by time I reached boss was green to myself. Then when pet dropped we got lucky and boss agroed Soldier. I made new pet sent him in Soldiers MK died out when boss was about 40% so doc and MA healed like crazy and then I started nuking. Well we killed however Soldier did die. He is doable with some work. my Crat had ql 10 Store bought imps in him since I started dnugeon at lvl 7 and didnt think I would stay. I was using the same bot I had used since lvl 14 which I got for free off some dude that was in there. Armor was from the mobs that dropped it. The Doctors highest healer was only for 27-34 so he was not twinked at all. The Adventurer had ql 30 implants in however for full set ql30 is no more than 100k and lv lvl 15 getting that kind of credits is doable and not very hard at all. The soldier I have no clue cept he used MK1 and was hitting for average of 30-60 using E-Beamer.

I have also done him on test and yes he was way way to easy I was 24 soldier MK1 not twinked and I could solo him. I am glad he is harder now puts more fun into it. He also drops Belt of Justice. It is a 3slot belt that adds 10ncu as well.

[Crestfire]

I very much agree with Jayde, 2 twinks can solo the thing just fine, but a full team of 6 real noobs have no chance at all. I tried him on with my doc twink and 2 others (had Behemoth and a high QL HE running so I would never run out of nano), we got it to 60% hp when I died, and so the others died in a matter of seconds also (with less than 500 hp :P). I'm sure I could kill it just fine with another doc, who is as twinked as I was, but I don't believe a team of 6 unexperienced players can ever kill it. Twinked chars can be extremely powerful, more powerful often than a team of 6 unexperienced players.

[Downsizr]

Trivializing the game is absolutly killing it.
Maybe some of you should realize that not having a granted success at doing something is ok.
Being able to kill the boss with a full twinked team is unavoidable. Cope with it. Still, a team of noob should have a few tries to take him down.

Some people here tried it and succeeded with untwinked toons. So question your tactic or your patience.

[Crestfire]

untwinked != unexperienced

I don't believe unexperienced players can beat this mob. I'm not asking for it to be tuned down, I'm just stating that players new to this game will not have a chance killing it. And patience won't help any, since you only get a few tries to kill this guy (you will level up at least twice every time you go down there).

[Marodex]

Appearently you didn't read the rest of my posting Jayde else you would have seen I bought only the nanos my character could use at that level. Everything else (including my weapons) was found there. I had 29 ncu doesnt that sound weird for you if I were twinked ?

[Jayde]

Originally posted by Darxy
Appearently you didn't read the rest of my posting Jayde else you would have seen I bought only the nanos my character could use at that level. Everything else (including my weapons) was found there. I had 29 ncu doesnt that sound weird for you if I were twinked ?

You're forgetting that lack of money is a perfectly normal situation for a normal new player.

A normal new play CAN'T buy ALL the nanos for their level. Not without gaining past level 25 or blitzing missions for a long time. (Which new players don't have any clue about, anyway.)

"100k left on him now"

So, in short, you spent 1.9 million credits on nanos--but don't view that as twinked? That's a silly assumption. You are using nanos that no new player who plays solely in that dungeon (or even missions) has any chance of getting.

You average player will have 20,000 credits by level 25 IF THEY'RE LUCKY. Most QL 15+ nano cost 8,000 credits. You do the math. Obviously, since you managed to spend 1.9 million on only nanos--as you claim--I would think you could realize that nanos are very, very hard for new players to aquire.

A Full-money mission from Hope or Camelot yields 4,000-5,000K credits at QL 15 after reward and selling of loot. On average, a new player levels 1 to 2 times per mission at that level. That's...oh...only 422 missions to blitz for cash there.

Also, unless you calm your way down..by the time you're strong enough to make it to the boss, you only have 4 tries (unless you're intentionally terminating--which I'm assmuning a new player would NOT do! lol) at most, as you will gain 1-2 levels each trip down.

Giving gobs of cash IS twinking. The limitations of lack of money is one of the major points for a new player. Players are lucky if they have 1,000 credits by the time they hit level 5. If they've only leveled in the noob mission or backyard, they have even less.

-Jayde