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Thread: Player warning: Crowd Limiting System coming up

  1. #1

    Exclamation Player warning: Crowd Limiting System coming up

    Gaute has written about the new crowd limiting system that will be implemented soon. Have a read, and discuss it here.
    Last edited by Cz; Nov 7th, 2002 at 15:56:32.

  2. #2
    Other than reminding Gaute there are three choices you can make when you choose your alignment, it doesn't seem like such a terrible thing. I really don't understand why he repeatedly said it was such a difficult article to write.

    He'll bring down Nerfs and game mechanic changes like god issuing the plagues of Egypt but something as simple as preventing client lag exploitation is a problem?

    As for what gaming system to aim at, you always gotta start low end and move up. As the median AO gamer PC gets more powerful, you adjust the constant in the config file and let more people interact.

    I'll tell ya one thing though, as much as they say the lag is client-side I've seen smoke coming out of my cable modem sometimes. P4 pushing 3gigahertz and a Radeon 9700 with a gig of RAM and a cable connection that the installers' jaws dropped when they saw how fast I was connecte at (10meg down, 3meg up). Also you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I'm about 15 miles from the main hub here in NJ. Ever see ping of 5? Point being, the cable modem light goes crazy someplaces and it ain't necessarily my hard drive slowing things down. Nor the 128 megabytes on my vid card (can you get more than that?).

    I'm all for the game providing a mechanism for 10 people to fight 10 people and have a good time. What fun is it for 100 people to fight 10? I could care less about lag as everybody has it. I like the evening out of the battle odds.

  3. #3
    All I have to say is this.....

    This is yet another nerf for Engineers. As predicted, this limitation has not remained 'just' for Camelot and is just about the final nail in the coffin for Engineers not getting into teams (since warping can no longer be guaranteed) as there is no other reason why a team would wish to take on (for all the reasons that have already been discussed)
    Dont you think I look like Geordie from Star Trek?
    Actually I look more of a cross between him and Picard don't I?

  4. #4
    Sounds like a good plan in principle to me. Less lag=good. Equal number of warriors=balanced battle=good.

    I was wondering how you're going to justify this feature in terms of roleplaying. Some sort of suppression gas enhancement?
    A minor issue, of course. I was just curious.
    Vanguard Mharc. Self-equipper extraordinaire no longer. I'm back!

  5. #5
    I agree that even fights out is a better thing though. Because as
    in all fights, the defender should have a tad bit bigger advantage.

    Anyway, I think he shouldn´t talk much about what sides lag
    the most. I sit here in Sweden with a Fiberoptic line 100Mbit.
    I have one of the most powerful computers around and my HD
    hardly move. But I still get 250k ping when enter Tir for example.

    It´s just the gamemechanics I guess. But anyway... something
    must be done though. Cuz getting warned for warping others in
    at Tara is just rediculous.
    Drmys - 216/18 Healmonkey
    Znyper - 220/15 Assassin
    Keepyxa - 203/5 Keeper
    Atomyxa - 152/0 NT
    Intoxica - 157/0 Soldier


  6. #6
    Yes, that's the one thing that bothered me about the article. Blaming my computer for the lag. I think the reason he went on so long about why it is our crappy computer's fault for the lag is because of his obvious unease towards implementing this. He musta pseudo-appologized for having to implement this 3 seperate times. He seems reluctant to admit that he's doing something he finds distasteful as a result of the technical limitations of the game itself and (probably subconsciously) is shifting the blame onto the players by saying our PC's suck. Hell, I could load AO into a virtual drive existing 100% in RAM and it still lags. But, I don't blame them for the lag considering they are probably running on Intel PC servers with Linux or even worse Windows running the game servers. And the Internet still isn't (and won't be for decades most likely) architected to handle what we're trying to do.

    But, that's not the point. The point is, it seems we'll finally be able to have 20 people fight 20 people for once. The excesses of the bloated groups will still be valuable as 'reserves' but no longer be able to be used as 'lag shields' . Hopefully we'll never see 20 valiant warriors standing to defend their towers and 300 people from some other org just come in and snuff them out like extinguishing a cigarette under your heal. Your best 20 against my best 20. I kinda like that.

    To me, it sounds like a good thing even if there were no lag issues to be concerned with. Definately implement it in Camelot 20 Neutral/20 Clan/20 Omni all duking it out. Any more than that and you go to a different dungeon.

    Even better, is to finally remove PvP from Camelot and make it a Guild Quest once you create the new PvP-Only dungeon CZ posted about. That way the loot doesn't get in the way of the action and we don't see the nonsense on the PvP board about loot and ninjas like we do now.

  7. #7

    Have to do it

    I have a T1 at work i play on afterhours. everwhere else in the world it is great, i go to tir, with only 20 people in a crowd around the grid point and my computer *a high end machine with all graphics stuff down to min* runs like a dog. i get stuck in loops some times where i am running though Tir and get warped back to a spot i was at a few min ago. I cant even stand to look into the crowd as my computer starts to smoke!

    but lets look at Everquest i play on this same PC. i have had full luclin models on, full clip plane, all the big glorious graphics settings, and been on raids in the ssra temple with 80+ people and had NO lag.

    So using that as my basis of comparasion, the number of supported people in AO seems limted either by the server, or by the packet coding you use... either way i dont see it being the system too often

    just my 2 credits worth. your milage may vary

  8. #8
    Well... if the attackers bring 40 people and the defenders only have 5, does that mean that the attackers can only use 5? Cuz that seems a little bit sketchy... defend only with one "uber-class-of-the-week" and if they can only bring one other against them, well...

    Basically, doesn't it seem like a little fluidity would be a good thing, and to only start crowd-limiting when one side reaches half-filling the area in question?

    I.E. Camelot will handle 60 people per GS. 15 Omni can come in w/o trouble. Same for neuts and clannies. But until 10 non-Omni are in play, you can't have more than 15. Until 20 non-Omni in, you can't have 30 Omni.

    BTW, I can't see any system that won't lend itself to possible griefing; logging low-level alts of the appropriate side in to take up slots for the other side.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  9. #9


    I think having to implement such a system is unfortunate. But I understand the reasons for doing so.

    AO has always had extremely high system requirements. Try playing in Tir on a Saturday or Sunday to get a feel for what I mean! Nanos take 10-15 seconds to run

    I don't fully agree with Gaute that AO's resource management is optimal. I have recently upgraded OS (Windows XP), CPU (AthlonXP 2100+) and memory (512MB to 1GB) and hardly noticed a difference! I still believe a large part of this lag is the servers at Funcom's datacenter - sorry. I mean my ping is usually less than 150, my computer isn't grinding away, etc...

    Still, providing this CL system can't be abused, I don't see anything particularly wrong with its implementation.

    Would this be implemented in non PvP situation as well, eg, Tir? It would be nice for the place to be playable for once
    Last edited by edict; Nov 7th, 2002 at 17:04:53.
    Clan Archdeacon

    "Nothing worth while is ever easy"

  10. #10
    Agreed regarding the low-level alts. But, that sounds tactical more than anything else. If you are the attacking team, you'll need 'sweepers' to take them out.

    How it works in your example is 5 people defending 40 attacking. Let's assume they set the limit to 50 people.

    5 more defenders come and everything is still cool.

    Yet another 5 defenders come and 5 attackers are made to step back. We're at 35 to 15 now. The larger group still maintains the numbers advantage.

    The 35 attackers kill 5 of the defenders. Now the attackers are organized and can move 5 reserves back into the battle and move it to 40 on 10 again.

    It's do or die time here and so the defenders finally get their whole guild to log on and 60 or their guys head to the battle field. They can't get everyone they want into the tower zone either and can only get 15 of their men into the heart of the action. It now ends up being 25 vs. 25 as 15 attackers are made to leave the battle.

    Yes, probably could be a smidge confusing.

    Yes, could lead to interesting 'tactics'. No worse than the '80 Neutrals show up at Tara 5 hours early and secure 'victory' type of tactics being talked about.

    Yes, it minimizes the bloated guild's current advantage of being able to win via swarms.

    Yes, combat would likely be more strategic in terms of resource management.

    Yes, you may see 'substitution' of 1st string, 2nd string, teams as in a hockey match. This is where the large org has an advantage. They can swap out teams tactically depending on how the battle is going. The small org basically has to stay on the field the whole time.

    Pretty exciting to think about actually. That is assuming they get it right. And that's something I have almost no confidence towards. Hell, look at the OE-nerf, the level-limits, unique mobs, Camelot.

    But, as they say regarding a baseball player who is in a hitting slump: 'they're due'. Bound to get a hit eventually. I really hope this is it.

  11. #11

    Lightbulb Crowd Limiting

    I just read about the upcoming system for Notum Wars..

    Seems that is WAS a needed matter.. since I understand how bad crowding can get.. (I go to Tir a lot at times.. and the FT there is still prone to corwding.. even though the Whompa station had been moved.. its still a popular place to find groups and teams).

    Anyway... i think if they do plan to invoke this in other normally crowded places.. then I think they should balance that with some newer system.. like a "teamfinder" panel... (like the one they have in DAoC, I used to play that a lot before I tried AO.)

    Senior Engineer, Trader Underground (Athen)

  12. #12
    You release a booster centered around PvP and this is your solution to the lag that will invariably occur? I suppose this is the only possible solution considering how bad the engine already is at handling more than ten people in one place but it just makes the booster seem all the more unappealing to me.

    How do you plan on deciding exactly who gets removed from the fight, and the following rants from that player?
    If it first come first serve, factions will no doubt send in their very highest members first in order to have the most firepower possible available. This will create an even bigger advantage for the faction with a lot of high level players, since the defenders will have no way of defeating the attacks by sheer numbers or vice versa.
    If this system is supposed to be even halfway fair you have to take levels into consideration when deciding which players to remove, but I doubt that is even possible.

    If this system has even the remotest possibility to stop someone with a mission in the same zone as a big fight to enter it's a big nono. If this system ever stops me and a team from getting to our mission area, it is a bad system. Also, count on that once people learn the mechanics of the system it will be abused and I have a very hard time imagining how FC will actually be able to monitor these fights 24/7 in order to make it fair.

    From an RP view this is a disaster, no matter how you try to justify it. 'Sorry, you are not allowed to even attempt saving the lives of your friends, it would create a disturbance in the force, but you are welcome to see their pleas for help scroll through your faction chat'...? Really looking forward to that one...
    Or maybe we will be issued tickets to the fight, allowing us our turn to replace a fallen comrade as long as we wait in an orderly line at the zone-border?

    If you still persist in going forward with this idea you have to use a medium comp set at the lowest settings, since fewer than you think have uber systems.
    Member of THM

  13. #13
    The engine and tech are definately showing their age and solutions like this only serve to piss people off.

    They should do the right thing and update all their tech with their expansion next year and forget about such lame meaures as doing their version of the portal storm from AC1.

    I think this will remind people of AC1 and piss them off and send them quickly to other games with newer tech. Other games like SWG
    Fear is the Mind Killer.
    You wasted life, why wouldn't you waste death?

  14. #14
    Originally posted by Warlock
    All I have to say is this.....

    This is yet another nerf for Engineers. As predicted, this limitation has not remained 'just' for Camelot and is just about the final nail in the coffin for Engineers not getting into teams (since warping can no longer be guaranteed) as there is no other reason why a team would wish to take on (for all the reasons that have already been discussed)
    and whining aggain .... some1 allways will wine.
    if u dont liek it, simply leave!
    its for teh wellness for all and not for maing a few eniges with a beacon warp nano which i used once a week.
    Achmed20 RK1 Fixer
    noone gives u power,
    real power is something u take

    fear my lockpick ... plz?

  15. #15
    Why do I feel that this is another of those good intentions that's going to go horribly wrong..

  16. #16

    Thumbs down hm

    well im not sure about this but i think maybe you guys should just fix the problems that are there rather than changing the whole approach of the pvp system

    enless its just that they can't?

    the point is, you walk into tir grid, your ping shoots from 110 to 5000

    then ten seconds later your pings back to normal and the game runs right again

    seems im not the only person with this problem and it doesnt seem to be based on our systems either since i've spoke with many people who have computers based on freakin nasa technology and they still get lag in tir grid 8P

    the last thing anarchy online needs is more order

    so what if 200 people rush a 100 man guarded tower?

    thats all the more reason for the 100 guys that got slaughter to go recruit more men and seek their revenge the next morning!

    it would be fun!!

    it would be war!!

    it would be anarchy....

    this idea just isn't

  17. #17
    it would be fun!!
    for who?

    it would be war!!
    it would be murder

    it would be anarchy....

    I still think 100 people fighting 100 people is fun for 200 people. 200 Happy People.

    200 people fighting 100 people is fun for 200 people and horse crap for the 100. Net: 100 Happy People.

  18. #18
    Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
    BTW, I can't see any system that won't lend itself to possible griefing; logging low-level alts of the appropriate side in to take up slots for the other side.
    Wow. Very creative. Hadn't thought of that yet.
    You must be very good at exploiting and griefing!
    Vanguard Mharc. Self-equipper extraordinaire no longer. I'm back!

  19. #19


    Well, somethings need to be done, and now know they are twisting their heads about solving the problem

    Most of us long time pvp'ers know what some zones turns into when we have a ton of ppl there to fight.. A few times in Mort an PW comes into my mind. If they put a player-limit to a zone they need to make a faction-limit too.

    Imo... instead of making it 50/50 they should make it lets say 55/45 or 53/47 or something like that. Make one side have a slight advantage agains the other side.

  20. #20


    Why cant you just put up an european server?

    Iam from europe and i find it very hard to play nowdays, i have always high ping rates in tir for example. Not only in tir, almost everywhere, like the server is over traffic or something.

    Its not only me that have this problems, my entire guild of 290 members are from europe. and everyone has the same problem. The game is starting to be very anoying and almost unplayable certian times of day and on weekends.

    This is a fact ppl, So you put up a whole german dimension. why cant you put up a european server?

    Maby it would cost you alot to do this, but i think its really necissary because the game are starting to become unplayabe, and anoying.

    Sorry for the bad english.


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