Anti-aircraft tactics

[Jaesic]

I am particularly disappointed to see that there are still many techniques that allow people to attack opponents who are in Yalms out of range of combat that have not been addressed by Funcom.

Why was the effort taken to tack a restriction on running nanos while falling... while still allowing people tol eject from their Yalm and brawl with an opponent during the fall to the ground? or worse (and I'd like to know just how the heck you'd explain this one as an intended ability) using aimed shot.

Now... I haven't taken the time to track down all the possible ways that can be used to bring down a Yalm that is otherwise out of range of all other opponents. I also doubt, somehow, that the PvP players who know them and use them (some of which I watched recently from the top of a high tower in Omni HQ) are going to fess up to the complete list.

But, I would hope that these things are addressed before the Notum Wars happen.

Jaesic
161 NT (RK2)

[________________Seid]

Now thats a good one.

*jumps out of a yalm and tries to aim carefully and steadily for a moving airborne target while plummeting to the ground*

[Skymarshal]

/me thinks somone just got alpha striked in thier yalm




hmmm... Lets continue to carebare PvP zones more than they already are.... as it is rooting classes are screwed.

Not To mention, pvp takes 5 years to kill someone... *IF* you can keep them from zoning....


___________________________
*Constructive Part of Post*

For Funcom to adjsut this, would require modifications to the way that Melee combat works. It would mean that Melee profesions would lose attacks that they get, while running, if they jump.

Now, I dont know about you... but i do not advocate nerfing melee'ers ability to move durring combat, as that would adversely affect thier abilities.

The number of Design Discontinuities, in the world map, makes it so that at odd times your "falling" but you really are not.


Jsut a thought.

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Skymarshal
/me thinks somone just got alpha striked in thier yalm

Not me, as I said I was watching from a nearby rooftop on the off chance someone would fly too close. They did and I was able to do some damage.

For Funcom to adjsut this, would require modifications to the way that Melee combat works. It would mean that Melee profesions would lose attacks that they get, while running, if they jump.

Now, I dont know about you... but i do not advocate nerfing melee'ers ability to move durring combat, as that would adversely affect thier abilities.

The number of Design Discontinuities, in the world map, makes it so that at odd times your "falling" but you really are not.


Jsut a thought.

While I agree that I don't like the idea of people losing skills and such during running and jumping times... this is EXACTLY what was done to nano classes. We cannot execute any programs while falling, whether from a jump or a Yalm. This was done, at least in part, to prevent the abuse of root on people in Yalms in exactly this situation... but the fix did not encompass the full scope of the problem.

I disagree, however, with your assessment that this is another attempt to restrict PvP. People who are in Yalms out of range have minimal use as scouts and have almost no chance to see people who are hidden. They aren't prepared to shoot you, so the 'abuse' of a loophole in the system is hardly a fair method of game play.

So how to fix it without preventing the use of these same things when runnng and jumping? Thats easy. Simply flag the character as unable to accept any action except motion from the time they are beginning to dismount until their feet are on the ground.

Unless of course the dev's actually intend people to be able to jump out of a high flying jet, aim carefully at another nearby jet, and start blasting it out of the air. Possible, I suppose... but come on...

Jaesic
161 NT (RK2)

[Mercatura]

There is something in the NW db that appears to be a Yalm-countermeasure that can be installed on towers or something. Not sure how it works though.

You can take teams of people, fly just outside of 40m range and drop down wherever you want, for only 400 fall damage or something. Thats lame, and so are the 'waiters' who fly above and wait for just the right moment to drop out of their yalm and get cheap shots on people in mass battles etc. They get to spy for free too, information does matter. Even a level 1 scout can't compete with that, theres usually ways to get them.

Right now there is no way to take down a yalm out of nano range...besides exploiting.

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Mercatura

Right now there is no way to take down a yalm out of nano range...besides exploiting.

Ah... but the question is... is it exploiting? I say it is... and thats why I started the thread... if it is, it should be resolved. There are alot of aspects of PvP that could be viewed as exploits... mainly because there is no publication of how things are "supposed" to work so we don't really know what's intended and what are loopholes.

I agree, it would be nice to have anti-aircraft countermeasures... but I do NOT think it should require flying up in a yalm, bailing out, and getting off brawl or any other sort of standard attacks... not without severe penalties to hit, anyway.

Jaesic
161 NT (RK2)

[Shadelore]

What is wrong with jumping out of planes and rooting ppl to bring them down and kill them?

If ppl really are so stupid that they hoover over a pvp battle, e.g to spy, they have to expect to be shoot down...

I can not see any reason for ppl to be invunerable just cause they are in airplanes..That would be like having magically invunerable scouts/arty spotters..

Never heard of antiaircraft guns?=)

Ppl complaining over this usually do this one time(get shot down that is), and one time only, after that they learn

So what is there to whine about ?

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Hermy
So what is there to whine about ?

Besides the fact that the code has already been fixed once in an attempt to stop this from happening and that people have just found other ways to do it?

And yes, I know all the arguments about anti-aircraft weaponry... kinda the title of the thread, right? But you do not fire anti-aircraft weapon while parachuting out of your own plane. You do not bring down spy-planes with anti-aircraft weapons either, most of the time... they fly at high altitude out of range of personal weapons and are usually undetectable by standard radar so the SAM sites that could take them out aren't even used.

Jaesic
161 NT (RK2)

[Shadelore]

Yes, go fly at high altitude them, dont hoover liek a damn sitting duck

They never "fixed" rooting planes tho, cause there is nothing to fix..If I see a spy hovering over a battlefield, I go up and root the bastid, plain & simple =)

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Hermy
Yes, go fly at high altitude them, dont hoover liek a damn sitting duck

They never "fixed" rooting planes tho, cause there is nothing to fix..If I see a spy hovering over a battlefield, I go up and root the bastid, plain & simple =)

Really? Then how exactly do you manage to get around the fact that you are rooting (running a nano) while falling?

Jaesic
161 NT (RK2)

[Loretta]

Clusters of Flying?

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Loretta
Clusters of Flying?

*blink* What?

[_____________Dakkard]

Theres an idea for, at least. making those ways to 'move around' the code more realistic.

Remove this ridiculous fall damage and make something like % dmg over your maximum health.

So, your falling from 100 feet high? Pray to the gods for the game dont takes more than 100% of your health.

This way those ppl thinking they can just get their yalms, fly all the way up to that guy just to do the, pardon me, but tottally unrealistic and ridiculous action of jump from his plane (actually theres another issue, at least in my mind about doing this: why our planes appear and disappear when we want?), brawl the guy and fall all they way back to the ground for just a little dmg, if compared to their huge ammount of health, so nothing that a simple first aid kit cant fix.

So, my ideas:

1. Make falling hurt! BAD! No matter if you have 1000 adventuring, without proper equipment, NOONE (did i say NOONE) should be able to fall from high altitudes without dieing or at least getting severely wounded.

2. Yes, NOONE should be able to use anything while falling, unless they make something like parachutes in this game (i know they wont, its just an example) that you could and SHOULD open when falling.

3. A good way to fix the problem with invulnerable scouts on the sky could be the addition of guns with greater range that with the proper gear could reach those flying targets.

4. Create a way for us to fight in the skies That would be the best way to fix it


Thats all for now....

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Dakkard
Remove this ridiculous fall damage and make something like % dmg over your maximum health.

So, your falling from 100 feet high? Pray to the gods for the game dont takes more than 100% of your health.

I can agree with some of this... but... there are some pretty strange things that can happen when you are jumping... that if you actually took % damage, people with high agi and str could kill themselves just jumping around. And of course... why should a 50 foot fall do 200 pts of damage to a level 10 and 3500 pts of damage to a level 170 enforcer?

1. Make falling hurt! BAD! No matter if you have 1000 adventuring, without proper equipment, NOONE (did i say NOONE) should be able to fall from high altitudes without dieing or at least getting severely wounded.

2. Yes, NOONE should be able to use anything while falling, unless they make something like parachutes in this game (i know they wont, its just an example) that you could and SHOULD open when falling.

Well... the bad part of this is... anti-grav technology availability means we all could technically be using the modern equivalent to the parachute... and that the reason we're taking damage at all is just that we suck at making on the fly modifications to rate of decent.

3. A good way to fix the problem with invulnerable scouts on the sky could be the addition of guns with greater range that with the proper gear could reach those flying targets.

ie... anti-aircraft weaponry... i suspect that there will be something like this available for towers in the notum wars booster... which is even more reason for the loopholes to be fixed so that feature receives full value... rather than having people continue to do it the 'easy' way instead of using the 'right' way.

4. Create a way for us to fight in the skies That would be the best way to fix it

I was scoping out the military potential of the various vehicles being advertised on all the new billboards. Might be something planned... I haven't heard anything official though.

Thanks for the suggestions.

edited to add:

Oh... as to the vehicles appearing and disappearing, read the novel. There's a description of the use of a boat (water vehicle) in there. It operates on the same basic principle used by MPs, Engineers and Crat pets. Nanobots aquire the necessary materials and assemble them into a preprogrammed pattern. Pretty impressive little buggers, eh?

Jaesic
162 NT (RK2)

[Shadelore]

All fine and fine, but I still do not see the problem with rooting and shooting spies out of the sky, atm that is the only way to do it..
I mean, if you go a pvp battlefield, and hangs in the air long enough without moving, well, you are asking for it...

If you do not want to be rooted and shoot down, dont go there and make that stupid termnial act of hanging there like a big blimp with a sign saying shot me on it..

I cant really understand why some ppl insist on having the right to be immortal once they enter their yalms?

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Hermy
If you do not want to be rooted and shoot down, dont go there and make that stupid termnial act of hanging there like a big blimp with a sign saying shot me on it..

Nah... its a couple simple things really.

First, I really don't like the idea that we often allow people to do things in PvP that wouldn't fly in the rest of a game (not just here). If these loopholes were in the experience system or in the trade system, they would be called exploits and fixed as quickly as possible. Instead, they're generally kept quiet by PvP players and used on unsuspecting people... at which point the recent victim is supposed to feel special, like they've been let in on some secret tactic so they won't give it away. You can tell the difference between someone who is a really good Pk'er and someone who just hordes these little tricks pretty quickly when you fight them.

Second, I would really like to see some REAL combat involving vehicles... and I suspect with the Notum Wars booster and all the advertised vehicle additions that we may be seeing some... vehicle to vehicle and tower to vehicle. If this is really the case... don't you think the problems that exist with the system as it is now should be corrected before we involve more features?

Third... there has already been several adjustments that limit the use of certain things when falling... it's possible that they have nothing at all to do with these sorts of tactics. And I've yet to see any official word one way or another... but the interpretation that I'm working with is that they are trying to prevent... but haven't gotten all the possible 'tricks' locked down yet. Only way to really know is to get word from Cz.. and with everything going on with 14.6 atm, that may be awhile.

Jaesic
162 NT (RK2)

[dropcid]

Originally posted by Hermy
I cant really understand why some ppl insist on having the right to be immortal once they enter their yalms?

I totally agree. I think yalms are the biggest mistake funcom ever made. Too late to fix it now, but if we could go back in time to the beginning of the game and remove yalms altogether, the game would be 100% more fun.

That said, I think jumping from yalms and rooting was the only viable "fix" that did exist (only in pvp areas, they still ruined the game in 75% zones), and now it's gone. Yalm users are back in "god-mode" again. Oh well. I hope they make some air-to-air combat in the expansion.

Being able to spy in "god-mode" in the air really does hurt large scale PvP.


-D

of course, I'm a hypocrite anyway, as all my chars have yalms, but when everyone else has them, you have to have one too. sucks. I still try to walk places as much as possible, so I actually see the game instead of flying 10 miles over it. Yalms are nothing more than a funcom endorsed exploit.

[Centurion3]

I can see it now... the breifing of elite paratroopers...

Officer: We have an enemy spy plane abouve us scouting... so here is what we are gonna do...

We're gonna load you all up in this boeing, fly abouve the airplane then drop you ontop of it so you can punch through its armor and force it to the ground!

[Shadelore]

Originally posted by Jaesic


Nah... its a couple simple things really.

First, I really don't like the idea that we often allow people to do things in PvP that wouldn't fly in the rest of a game (not just here). If these loopholes were in the experience system or in the trade system, they would be called exploits and fixed as quickly as possible. Instead, they're generally kept quiet by PvP players and used on unsuspecting people... at which point the recent victim is supposed to feel special, like they've been let in on some secret tactic so they won't give it away. You can tell the difference between someone who is a really good Pk'er and someone who just hordes these little tricks pretty quickly when you fight them.

Second, I would really like to see some REAL combat involving vehicles... and I suspect with the Notum Wars booster and all the advertised vehicle additions that we may be seeing some... vehicle to vehicle and tower to vehicle. If this is really the case... don't you think the problems that exist with the system as it is now should be corrected before we involve more features?

Third... there has already been several adjustments that limit the use of certain things when falling... it's possible that they have nothing at all to do with these sorts of tactics. And I've yet to see any official word one way or another... but the interpretation that I'm working with is that they are trying to prevent... but haven't gotten all the possible 'tricks' locked down yet. Only way to really know is to get word from Cz.. and with everything going on with 14.6 atm, that may be awhile.

Jaesic
162 NT (RK2)

Dude, you really want to be able to hover 41 yards over the ground with a battle underneath beeing untouchable!?

I would rather say that would be wanting to exploit.
As for what you like to see, well, dream on, thats the future, right now rooting is the only way of getting those damn spies down.

This was so funny my jaw dropped:
"Instead, they're generally kept quiet by PvP players and used on unsuspecting people"

So you are sayin those hooveing target blimps in yalms aint pvp ppl, well gette **** outa the pvp zones, and go carebear someone else then

Anyway, I realize we can never agree on anything here, you want to be able to go everywhere without taking the consequenses, I want to shoot down spies, so I give up, I guess Fc even makes it so that all carebears get to fly on ground lvl without been able to beeing shoot, as long they are yalmed..

[Jaesic]

Originally posted by Hermy


Dude, you really want to be able to hover 41 yards over the ground with a battle underneath beeing untouchable!?

I would rather say that would be wanting to exploit.
As for what you like to see, well, dream on, thats the future, right now rooting is the only way of getting those damn spies down.

This was so funny my jaw dropped:
"Instead, they're generally kept quiet by PvP players and used on unsuspecting people"

So you are sayin those hooveing target blimps in yalms aint pvp ppl, well gette **** outa the pvp zones, and go carebear someone else then

Anyway, I realize we can never agree on anything here, you want to be able to go everywhere without taking the consequenses, I want to shoot down spies, so I give up, I guess Fc even makes it so that all carebears get to fly on ground lvl without been able to beeing shoot, as long they are yalmed..

Touched a nerve somewhere, eh? I realize you disagree... its been obvious since your first post... flaming isn't necessary.

I am simply pointing out a flaw in the game. I'm not the one who put a "40 yard" limit on ranged weapons and nukes (and since that 40 m range is a soft limit anyway, this point is not 100% valid) ... and for that matter... I would be just fine with people being able to shoot down Yalms... if it were a feature that were available to everyone in a logical, reasonable way.

And just as an "oh by the way" I PvP (and enjoy it, playing against mobs is generally a lot less challenging)... and I don't think it's honorable dueling or anything like that. I just have a tendancy to dislike it when people can use gimmicks rather than developing their character or their own playing skills. Like killing someone who comes out of grace period before their load time via whompa or grid is finished. Its not a matter of skill... quality of character or player... it's just a trick that uses a flaw in the system.

Oh... and the spies? They're usually not the ones in the yalm's anyway... they're the ones who are hidden until your head is in their crosshairs... or they're sitting on the next level up in the grid waiting for someone to zone in.

Jaesic
162 NT (RK2)