Maybe fix nt

[Cdogg421]

Well, to be true - I joined first BS today with soldier, and BAM NT on other side. I made quick capture of random situations. Those were actually short "fights"

https://youtu.be/TkAVZ_xgxmA

steamrolls a doc in less then 2 seconds, says nt has to much dmg...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgPWTQNtSFE

[srompu]

You realize that's literally the only way to kill a doc as a soldier, right? You're aware docs can heal, and that soldiers lost their init debuffs and nanodrains in 18.7?
You also noticed the doc was green and spent his final moments casting UBT?

[Djiax]

Omg even Sromp is losing his cool !

[Pomidor]

steamrolls a doc in less then 2 seconds, says nt has to much dmg...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgPWTQNtSFE

I was killing a doc with no armor, lvl 170ish, and with around 7k HP...

[geturmoney]

from an engineer point of view: nts with off-focus do WAY too much dmg. they survive far too long for the huge dmg they deliver with a small chance to fail.
so: if nts can tank my pets + perks + silverbackfor longer than 1 bio cocoon and nm absorb <then i died>then there is something op. sorry. thats too much.

im playing a pvp nt too. from this perspective i must say the def weve got is good and was necessary! i always play in def focus because i hate the aegis nano clearance.
instead of nerfing the def it would make sense to stop the immense dmg nts got under off-focus.

maybe give doubles a lock timer from 10 seconds?
move tactical nuke to def-focus line? (wouldnt change much about dmg output since its either 1 IU or 1 TN)

edit* meant to write wouldnt :O

[Vinkera]

I'll be 100% honest with everyone here.

I don't like Doubles the way they are. I've got ideas on how I'd like to see them tweaked, but I want to hear from you all. Slythea, I like the lines along which you've thought that through, actually. I'm not totally in love with the specifics, however.

I'd like to hear from others. I know I'll get mostly bad ideas asking this, but here goes... If Doubles were to change, how would you do it?

[Raggy]

I'd like to hear from others. I know I'll get mostly bad ideas asking this, but here goes... If Doubles were to change, how would you do it?

Remove them and replace them with the proposed nano weaving from the old balance documents.

or

Turn them into reflect piercing DoTs.

or

Create two new perks with 5s CDs called 'Nano Primer Offensive' and 'Nano Primer Defensive'. NPOff = Doubles become a delayed 'bomb' that deals significant damage after 10/15s. NPDef = Doubles do half of the damage they do now, don't pierce reflects, but half of the damage they do is returned to the NT as layers.


*shrug*

[geturmoney]

- introduce lock timer

- doubles + off-focus are a playstyle where its meant to kill the target as fast as possible before it kills you.
--> how about with every double that is casted the target gets a buff in the ncu which makes the next double 5% less effective

- move pierce reflect to IU, so that only IU and no other nuke can be executed when target is pierced. at the same time change the reflect debuff to 30%
--> major soli relief cuz they still have like 50%


however doubles have to be changed in a way that makes low hp profs not that easy to kill (engi/mp/ma/fixer/crat/shade/trader). i only see this by a lock on double, or the weakening of doubles with every cast on the same target.

[Vinkera]

Wow, 2 posts and not one bad idea. I am impressed.

Remove them and replace them with the proposed nano weaving from the old balance documents.

or

Turn them into reflect piercing DoTs.

or

Create two new perks with 5s CDs called 'Nano Primer Offensive' and 'Nano Primer Defensive'. NPOff = Doubles become a delayed 'bomb' that deals significant damage after 10/15s. NPDef = Doubles do half of the damage they do now, don't pierce reflects, but half of the damage they do is returned to the NT as layers.


*shrug*

It's been a while since I've read through the nano docs, but I think I know what you're refering to. I'll go through them again before I comment on that too much and put my own foot in my mouth :P

The DoT idea isn't bad, but I feel as though that may take away the ferousity of casting that I'm looking for.

The perk idea is clever, but might there be issues with possibly even tripling up layers. Otherwise, it's clever.

- introduce lock timer

- doubles + off-focus are a playstyle where its meant to kill the target as fast as possible before it kills you.
--> how about with every double that is casted the target gets a buff in the ncu which makes the next double 5% less effective

- move pierce reflect to IU, so that only IU and no other nuke can be executed when target is pierced. at the same time change the reflect debuff to 30%
--> major soli relief cuz they still have like 50%


however doubles have to be changed in a way that makes low hp profs not that easy to kill (engi/mp/ma/fixer/crat/shade/trader). i only see this by a lock on double, or the weakening of doubles with every cast on the same target.

If by lock timer, you mean line cooldown, that's perfectly fine in my book.

In terms of the 5% thing, I don't think that's going to be noticable enough.

I'm not a fan of messing with IU. As far as I'm concerned, IU is perfect as it is, and I'd prefer to leave it alone.

My thinking is much more simple.

Making Doubles less damage, but insta-cast, and having a medium-ish line cooldown instead of long recharge. This makes it feel more like a weapon special... burst maybe. However, still not as easy as all of you have it, being able to button mash it as soon as it's up due to single threaded nano casting/recharge.

[Pomidor]

From my TL 6 Experience and below:

1. Make lockout timer for Doubles, so it scales like this: higher QL nuke, shorten timer. It is because Doubles/Tripples were introduced as a "burst" for NT. Currently, since they overpass all defenes, this nano is too strong at TL6 and later on.
2. Introduce Single Reflect Piercing PvP Nuke line with 4 types (TL4: 300/hit dmg TL5: 400 DMG/hit TL6 500 DMG/hit TL7 1000 DMG/hit*)
This will enpower a little TL4 and 5 NT (they are lacking offensive power when it comes to damage output). Such change, at lower TL will provide fighting chances vs big HP characters (Docs/Enfs/Agents).

* - I am not sure if proposed number for TL7 is correct - somone with experience on both side should suggest something if its bad.

I would not take def from NT -Its the double need adjustmenet (and I am speaking about TL6, as you seen NT owning 4 character in less then 15 seconds and stayed alive without problem).

[DigitalBath]

From my TL 6 Experience and below:


I would not take def from NT -Its the double need adjustmenet (and I am speaking about TL6, as you seen NT owning 4 character in less then 15 seconds and stayed alive without problem).

4 characters in less than 15 seconds is not possible. You're just not being realistic (again). That's 3 double casts (15 full seconds), dude.

I'm starting to doubt your honesty, now.

[Vinkera]

My thinking on the "Double" line cooldown is 6ish seconds. I'm not keen on separating Pierce Reflect, though. Would other nukes have the chance to benefit from Pierce Reflect in this nano's case? Not at all, and that's fair enough on our part.

In terms of damage, obviously, the figures as they are, are not realistic to be tied into an insta-cast, fast recharge nuke. I'm still tossing those numbers around in my head, however.

Despite what anyone here has said, the balance here is rather delicate, and I am NOT accepting a blatant nerf as a solution.

[pinkishpunk]

having both massiv NR debuffs that lasts long , and attacks not affected but deflect skill doesnt seem right , either massivly lower the debuffing skill and time or have the nanos factor in defect and evades would be tweakable options that didnt affect the nts pwm experience in anyway, given mobs only have off and def skills.

[sultryvoltron]

My thinking on the "Double" line cooldown is 6ish seconds. I'm not keen on separating Pierce Reflect, though. Would other nukes have the chance to benefit from Pierce Reflect in this nano's case? Not at all, and that's fair enough on our part.

In terms of damage, obviously, the figures as they are, are not realistic to be tied into an insta-cast, fast recharge nuke. I'm still tossing those numbers around in my head, however.

Despite what anyone here has said, the balance here is rather delicate, and I am NOT accepting a blatant nerf as a solution.

Your suggestion here seems like a blatant buff though.
This would take the last offensive recharge away and move the entire NT nuke pattern to line cooldowns. After that the amount of time you spend casting absorbs increases significantly.

You would have to significantly drop the damage in order to balance this.
I think attacking doubles is wrong anyways. We should be going after Nanobot Aegis imo. I don't see the problem with NT damage in offensive focus.

Think of off focus NTs as a ticking time bomb, even vs healing professions. You have X amount of time before the NT kills you, no matter what. The problem is NM Coon + Nanobot Aegis + IW keeps the NT perfectly safe, which allows them to focus on perfect cast timings, for more than half of most fights, nearly half of some fights, and less than half of very few fights. Meanwhile the target of the NT can only focus on perfectly timed defenses in order to survive.

There is no counter to these DtN and DtP nanos like there is for every other defense. AMS is kept in check by reflect piercing/reduction, evades are kept in check by AS and MR, hp is kept in check by high damage specials, DtN doesn't have hard counters except for GTH I guess, but that's only one counter from a profession that suffers from PVP impotence.

[Vinkera]

You would have to significantly drop the damage in order to balance this.
I think attacking doubles is wrong anyways. We should be going after Nanobot Aegis imo. I don't see the problem with NT damage in offensive focus.

That's why I said the damage figures aren't realistic, and I'm thinking about it.

The problem is, I can ask anyone here, and they could tell me 50 different ways to fix it, good or bad. If I listened to every idea from non-NT's, you'd ruin us. If I only listened to NT's, it would most likely turn into a buff, yes. Everything CAN turn out better for both sides with adjusting Doubles, but that's a hard resolution to arrive at, because I can't take what anyone says 100% and run with it.

[Cdogg421]

i'd vote for it being changed to a single hit, same damage, 25% life tap in pvp, 10% in pvm (the heals would only top out at ~1200 in pvp, 900-1k in pvm). line cooldown of 10s, recharge reduced to 2s. this would make nt's have to play wiser, slows down their pvp dmg, and adds a compromise.

[DigitalBath]

i'd vote for it being changed to a single hit, same damage, 25% life tap in pvp, 10% in pvm (the heals would only top out at ~1200 in pvp, 900-1k in pvm). line cooldown of 10s, recharge reduced to 2s. this would make nt's have to play wiser, slows down their pvp dmg, and adds a compromise.

While I like this line of thinking in a way.. I feel we would be rather OP with lifesteal mechanics. I may be wrong, of course.. but our defense in Off Focus is bursty at the moment.. people who know how to PvP can break it by timing it out or by bringing appropriate damage into play (hard, not impossible).
I feel it should stay that way. If we lose Aegis we're sitting ducks for 35 seconds.
Drains/Lifetaps seem inappropriate for NT's. Even if I'm speaking against a possibly OP measure here.

I don't think we should be boosted or nerfed. As for Traders, they need a boost in PvP.. but not really against NT's. I still see good Traders manhandling NT's in TL7 BS as they're supposed to.

IF eventually the rather unlikely evidence that warrants a nerf in any area of the NT toolset emerges.. special care should be taken to ensure 3 things:

Offensive Focus doesn't become useless suicidal mode. - Too low damage and/or inexistent Defense would be the likely scenarios.
Defensive Focus doesn't become useless turtle mode. - Too high defense and/or too low damage would be the likely scenarios.
Switching between Off and Def is possible within a reasonable time frame OR that we can switch in a way that doesn't block the advantages of BOTH toolsets for an extended period of time.

Note that any boosts to either Focus as it currently performs seem unnecessary to me. Offensive Focus could use more appeal for PvM but I honestly don't want to mess with that as PvP would likely become too OP.

[Cdogg421]

While I like this line of thinking in a way.. I feel we would be rather OP with lifesteal mechanics. I may be wrong, of course.. but our defense in Off Focus is bursty at the moment.. people who know how to PvP can break it by timing it out or by bringing appropriate damage into play (hard, not impossible).
I feel it should stay that way. If we lose Aegis we're sitting ducks for 35 seconds.
Drains/Lifetaps seem inappropriate for NT's. Even if I'm speaking against a possibly OP measure here.

I don't think we should be boosted or nerfed. As for Traders, they need a boost in PvP.. but not really against NT's. I still see good Traders manhandling NT's in TL7 BS as they're supposed to.

IF eventually the rather unlikely evidence that warrants a nerf in any area of the NT toolset emerges.. special care should be taken to ensure 3 things:

Offensive Focus doesn't become useless suicidal mode. - Too low damage and/or inexistent Defense would be the likely scenarios.
Defensive Focus doesn't become useless turtle mode. - Too high defense and/or too low damage would be the likely scenarios.
Switching between Off and Def is possible within a reasonable time frame OR that we can switch in a way that doesn't block the advantages of BOTH toolsets for an extended period of time.

Note that any boosts to either Focus as it currently performs seem unnecessary to me. Offensive Focus could use more appeal for PvM but I honestly don't want to mess with that as PvP would likely become too OP.

i don't feel like they need a nerf either but i'd rather come up with something that will be fair to both sides then to just get hit with a nerf stick. but as far as life tap not fitting our tool set, i'm past that when they gave soldiers a de-root. the numbers i was giving there on the heals was if the nuke hit for as hard as it possibly could (which it never does) while program overload is up and running a nano dmg heavy setup, and i think it's pretty fair considering ql 125 stims heal for more then that.

[Psikie]

Been a while since i had to multi-quote so many posts...

Apart from NBS ganks, which were stupid to begin with, they weren't useful. Doubles do more DPS.

However, you've unknowingly brought up the most likely problem. The tactical nuke adds an effective ~3k to the NT opener, in addition to allowing Garuk to pierce reflects. NTs weren't short on damage before, and this is a significant boost.

I've always liked you and always considered you a top notch pvp player. But in this instance I can sense some bias in your post. NT's are glass cannons, absolutely they can deal out spike damage. But they really cant sustain themselves in a fight after they shoot their wad. I get it, you have a really good agent so you are used to alpha killing power while fp doc CH. Instead of trying to beat the NT's strength head on, think more about how to attack their weakness which fyi is being very, VERY perkable. That's all I will say on that subject.

from an engineer point of view: nts with off-focus do WAY too much dmg. they survive far too long for the huge dmg they deliver with a small chance to fail.
so: if nts can tank my pets + perks + silverbackfor longer than 1 bio cocoon and nm absorb <then i died>then there is something op. sorry. thats too much.
.....
maybe give doubles a lock timer from 10 seconds?
move tactical nuke to def-focus line? (wouldnt change much about dmg output since its either 1 IU or 1 TN)

I am most shocked at this type of post. Seriously tanking pets, and silverback? WTF is that? A keeper can do that! Ignore your pets totally and just wtfpwn you. But take another step and compare that to an advy who just flat out evades your pets, can't be perked by your lower AR, takes your AS, and then throws up their own coon. O and btw they can still heal any dmg you might do to them roflol. You are QQ about an NT that has no healing ability? How do you fight enfo's with 2x as much health as an NT has nano pool for aegis?

Remove them and replace them with the proposed nano weaving from the old balance documents.

or

Turn them into reflect piercing DoTs.

GRRR why why why? Raggy you play a trader, once you start draining NT's can't hold a candle to you. Not like any NT has nano repulsor perked. Not like any NT has AS shotgun that checks duck. Not like any NT has health transfers and drains. Honestly if we talk best on best, I can't see any NT being able to beat the best MP, or Trader. Advy imo always has a good chance to beat any other prof depending on ranged or melee. The only profs NT absolutely owns would be soldier, crat, and shade imo. Anyone with healing or stuns can beat an NT.

- introduce lock timer

however doubles have to be changed in a way that makes low hp profs not that easy to kill (engi/mp/ma/fixer/crat/shade/trader). i only see this by a lock on double, or the weakening of doubles with every cast on the same target.

Just plain facepalm. I mean it's not like doubles are the NT's only way to match AS, burst, fling, regular hit right? Or sneak, brawl, fast, dimach, regular hit? Makes me want to to a shot of tequila reading that.

There is no counter to these DtN and DtP nanos like there is for every other defense. AMS is kept in check by reflect piercing/reduction, evades are kept in check by AS and MR, hp is kept in check by high damage specials,

DtN doesn't have hard counters except for GTH I guess, but that's only one counter from a profession that suffers from PVP impotence.

All things considered you answered your own question. DtN is also countered by high dmg specials! I mean it's not like high hp enfo have ny counter to their main defense othert than the NT anti-essence nano or as you say high dmg specials? GTH and high dmg specials are the same vs NT aegis.

[Vinkera]

i don't feel like they need a nerf either but i'd rather come up with something that will be fair to both sides then to just get hit with a nerf stick. but as far as life tap not fitting our tool set, i'm past that when they gave soldiers a de-root. the numbers i was giving there on the heals was if the nuke hit for as hard as it possibly could (which it never does) while program overload is up and running a nano dmg heavy setup, and i think it's pretty fair considering ql 125 stims heal for more then that.

Well, healing definitely doesn't in NT's toolset. Soldiers having a root breaker now is... whatever. They still find a way to complain about it, even though they shouldn't have it.

Your suggestion before is too strong, though. I'm all for making "Doubles" fire off instantly and having short recharge, but it can't have the same damage. It's got to be lower. If it's reduced enough, it could still fit into a nuke alpha more smoothly, and by allowing a quicker recharge/cooldown to be plausible.

Would that actually lower our damage though? Not much. What it does does do, is slow it down... Or rather, space it out a bit. Now you're freed up to cast something else, which would likely be IU. The way things go in real time, chances are if one was to use IU following "Double", DPS would be roughly the same even if the damage done by "Doubles" were reduced by as much as 40-50%. On the flip side, the receiving end is hit twice, and still for roughly the same amount, but it's now spaced apart by a few seconds. This would be enough time for cocoon, BR, etc to kick in. Basically, more reaction time for the target.

Now, if you look at it from an alpha standpoint, it allows you to quickly fire off a few pretty strong nukes, but then you're not totally hosed if you try to finish with a Double and they end up surviving. It would be possible to throw in another IU, an absorb, even a stun if everything goes wrong.

This is kind of the solution of least resistance that I can come up with. It doesn't actually nerf anything, but I see it as something to put NT's, even at lower levels, in a better position for the future. It does switch up and complicate an NT's now normal casting pattern, and that needs to be kept in mind here by anyone skeptical that "roughly the same" damage would actually change anything. But, I welcome different opinions.

Again, let's hear them.

Vinkera you have to be the most arrogant and condescending prof in a long time and that is saying something.

The amount of lying and misrepresentation of information against my profession has made me a bit cranky lately.