Again. Multiboxing in AO. ttl7 / ttl5 pvp.

[Tinypain]

Yeah, no one has ever gotten banned for using helper programs or "creative" tactics in an FPS. It's all solved with game mechanics.


Oh wait...

Yeah I was about to say...it's never been an issue because there are other pieces of software that implement an advantage for the end user.

If one player uses 3rd party software to gain an advantage over another player it's generally termed as cheating. Mb skates on that fine line.

Personally I don't understand the real benefit outside of pvm. I'm also pretty sure the designers of AO never intended for a single player to control more than one account in a PvP encounter.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Great discussion.

I appreciate Wrangeline's candid response. Good food for thought, and I really identify with that archetype of finding a problem then play to solve it.

I just want to point out that my suggestion (previous post) aimed to eliminate the main beef that every person here has directed at MB's: the insta kill.


I'd also like to point out that there are two VERY different ways to build a multibox:

1. build a box with agents or NT's which has the sole purpose of eliminating a target for which there IS NO DEFENCE FOR

2. build a box which has the primary goal of defensive synergy such that the box operates in a similar manner to a well built team

I personally have avoided building boxes in the first manner for the sole and absolute reason that I would never want to make the game less fun for anyone. It simply isn't fair to take someone out of the fight with the press of one button. I've always, always, in real life and in every games I've played, given precedent to fair play, in everything from duels to PVP to not fighting dirty, and even in BS if I see two guys duking it out and having a good fight I'll often let them go to completion then attempt the kill after that fight has reached it's conclusion. I just feel that it's more fun to let fair play run it's course.

And so, while yes I do MB, I would never build a box to deprive others of the value of the game. Is having a strongly built defensive box inherently unfair? FC seems to support it. And, so do, apparently everyone in this thread, for nowhere have I seen the complaint that a box that is hard to kill a serious problem in AO. The real problem, of course is the insta-kill, and everyone knows it.

[Tinypain]

FC blindly supports it. I feel if they actually looked at data collected from various encounters between players in pvp and even pvm content they would consider a different stance on the matter.

[Alternity]

FC blindly supports it. I feel if they actually looked at data collected from various encounters between players in pvp and even pvm content they would consider a different stance on the matter.

They have no issues with it being promoted, that's for sure.

[Tinypain]

They have no issues with it being promoted, that's for sure.

Yeah I saw that...it's just a matter of FC not putting any focus into it after dismissing it. Maybe after rebalance gets some stability they will revisit what actions a single player should be able to have over another player in a PvP scenario.

[drainbamage]

And so, while yes I do MB, I would never build a box to deprive others of the value of the game. Is having a strongly built defensive box inherently unfair? FC seems to support it. And, so do, apparently everyone in this thread, for nowhere have I seen the complaint that a box that is hard to kill a serious problem in AO. The real problem, of course is the insta-kill, and everyone knows it.

lol, no

A "strongly built defensive box" is just as unfair as an instakill one from the perspective of a person playing a single character, the only difference is that it is not as overtly obvious that you're fighting one person controlling multiple accounts.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

lol, no

A "strongly built defensive box" is just as unfair as an instakill one from the perspective of a person playing a single character, the only difference is that it is not as overtly obvious that you're fighting one person controlling multiple accounts.

precisely.

But at least one person isn't taken out of the fight instantaneously, which gives them a chance to use their toolset.

[grandefiasco]

Multiboxing is now also ruining other pvp ranges
Its a shame FC allows this

[Saetos]

And so, while yes I do MB, I would never build a box to deprive others of the value of the game.

A knight in shining armor you may be, you're still using a mechanic of the game that places you firmly above the competition in an unfair manner. And the amount of people that use it by having a squadron of Agents vastly outnumber these "noble" boxes of yours. There's no way to take the game seriously as it is with something like this present.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Where this conversation needs to go is to the place where people have formed a REASONABLE set of rules that:

1. validate the use of MB (FC simply can't go back on this after endorsing it for a couple years)
2. limit the destructive power via either limiting the number of actions performed on one key press (probably difficult to enforce, and difficult to find real perpetrators)
3. limit the number of active toons of a specific type (i.e. 6 NT's or 6 agents, etc.) per IP
4. limit the destructive potential of any specific prof at any time (e.g. cap single hit max damage to 10% of max HP)
5. significantly reduce the amount of subsequent damage any toon takes from subsequent attackers (i.e. 1-3 attackers = no change in damage taken, 4 attackers reduces all damage taken by 25%, 5 attackers reduces all damage taken by 50%, 6+ attackers reduces all damage taken by 75%) which would CLEARLY make it more difficult for people to /assist kill, and incredibly difficult for people to instagank anyone)
6. Alternately from 5, introduce some new method of stopping damage from any specific source resulting in rapidly diminishing returns if damage is taken too rapidly

Broadly speaking, I completely agree with Saetos, but complaining about a problem without making a suggestion to fix it isn't productive.
So I've made a few suggestions, but my objective, in case it's not clear, is that FC, if they want to endorse MB, they MUST make MB a more fair system. They should enforce some minor regulations to stop it from being completely unfair to those who cannot/do not/can't afford to multibox.

[Awikun]

First of all you do not get the problem.

The problem is MB itself and a fact that FC did not prohibit it when it started. Now it is too late and there is no good solution

Player using MB will always have an unfair advantage over anybody playing 1 account at a time or dual/alt tabbing and that is a fact you can not deny.
Making any rules to reduce this advantage is just stupid
You either encourage fair play (no MB at all) or encourage cheating (using MB)

What you suggest is making some rules for MB which is like making some rules of what kind of cheating is allowed and what kind of cheating is prohibited ...
Can you see the irony?

Look at the history of MB in AO and total population it was/will be like this:
Some %$#@er with no life found some MB software and decided to use it in AO to grieef towers with his great strategy of "hit and run" 24/7 he was so good that he even managed to kill several towerfields as defenders got tired and bored.

Some ppl rage quit

Some more &%$#ers with no life saw that and decided that it would be cool to do the same (and I have no idea nor care whether they were Omni or Clan) so even more towers at the same time were hit with this "genious" strategy

More ppl rage quit (some of them "gives" their account to friends so they can use MB)

Because of smaller population more ppl start to MB even 2-3 accounts only in order to have teams for leveling or raids

Some ppl befriends MBers in order to get team/raid/loot

More ppl that do not have MBers as friends quit because they can not find teams/raids

MBers needs GRACE so they start to masively farm anything that they can sell (items/lootright) and FC makes even more credit sinks which completely change AO's economy and prices of everything goes down

More players abandons their cities because they can not pay city upkeep (because now viralbots are so cheap that is harder to earn credits for city upkeep)

More ppl quits => more ppl multibox

Demand of everything is decreased a lot and is almost impossible to sell anything to other players (lootrights or GMI)

More ppl quits

The remaining ppl start farming pearls and monster parts (to make blood plasma) and sell every single crappy loot to shop terminals

................

................

................

There are only few MBers left and they all have more tower fields that they can even hold no customers to sell anything

FC realises nobody is loging to AO servers and decides to switch them off...

[Soju]

just in the last week i have helped 3 people create their multiboxes ingame. I get requests almost daily for help. It has been like this for over a year now. There are a lot more people multiboxing than you guys realize.

they are not public and are hiding because of the negative stigma that follows mb.

[Awikun]

Did you even read my post?

You should be proud that not only you are killing AO but also teach "your students" how to kill AO even faster...

[Caloss2]

just in the last week i have helped 3 people create their multiboxes ingame. I get requests almost daily for help. It has been like this for over a year now. There are a lot more people multiboxing than you guys realize.

they are not public and are hiding because of the negative stigma that follows mb.

If people don't want to admit to doing something, should they be doing it ?

[Caloss2]

Did you even read my post?

You should be proud that not only you are killing AO but also teach "your students" how to kill AO even faster...

Does a sociopath know or if they do know "care" they are sociopath ? clearly not.

http://www.wikihow.com/Spot-a-Sociopath

[DarkerThanBlack]

just in the last week i have helped 3 people create their multiboxes ingame. I get requests almost daily for help. It has been like this for over a year now. There are a lot more people multiboxing than you guys realize.

they are not public and are hiding because of the negative stigma that follows mb.

For crying out loud, dude stop helping people you're killing the game! AO is all about disdain, soloing and remembering the good old times.

[Bendaar]

Thank you Awikun, your hypocrisy encourages me to look into multiboxing !
Because it seems to piss off lootright sellers, which is a very desirable goal.

[Prawn]

Player using MB will always have an unfair advantage over anybody playing 1 account at a time or dual/alt tabbing and that is a fact you can not deny.
Making any rules to reduce this advantage is just stupid
You either encourage fair play (no MB at all) or encourage cheating (using MB)

Open up RK2 again and allow multiboxing, scripts etc. On it, let them play AO singleplayer since they dont want to interact with other people..

Anyway so many good solutions to this problem FC - its not to late to save whats left

[McKnuckleSamwich]

lol awikun you're so angry.

[Footer]

Ill start off by saying this - I have spent two days, taking my time to read every single reply to this thread. I understand each point of view. I can sympathize with each and everybodys opinion. But a lot of all i see is name calling, trolling and whining. 50% of what I see is abuse, and people trying to shout and force their opinions, trying to portray them as fact. This is not the case. Stop trying to tell others how to play the game. This is up to them. They are not wrong, they just do what makes them happy, call it selfish or whatever, but this isn't their problem.

I dont know much about coding, I dont have a suggestion of what we should do. I dont know what is possible to help. All i can provide is my personal opinion, and experiences regarding MB, both in pvp and pvm.

As an overall, I'm neutral in the way of MB, I like it for PVM, and dislike it for PVP. I dont MB myself, I cannot afford 6 accounts, i cant afford 4. I have two paid accounts, i occassionally alt tab dual log, but mainly my second account was to hold more pvp twinks. I play this game mostly for pvp. I also do play alongside MBers, both pvm and pvp(which im ashamed to say, but what can you do when you are both attacking the same sort, or the other side is MBing also?) I just try and get along in the game i enjoy, with how it is at the moment. MB exists and i cant run from it.

I like MB in PVM, with AO's low population, it is good to have somebody to fill in for some DD. We have one MBer in my org. He isnt active much, nor does he use it for pvp (as of this post). Our org numbers have been low lately, and yes when he attends org raids its a great advantage for us. We actually have the numbers to do beast, rather than a few runs of DB2, or we can actually do S35 instead of inf missons for our weekly raids. None of us complain, we all cheer. Call me a hypocrite all you like, but i just try and get on and play my game however is possible at any given time.

I even get along with a few MBers, clan or omni. I work with clan MB sometimes, i chat to omni MB when i get instakilled - not to abuse, but just to have a bit of harmless, fun smack talk like i would a normal raidforce. I do understand for some, without MB they wouldnt have much to do. They already have a full set of fully geared toons, covering multiple ranges. What else is left to do but make more, or even copys. They can raid, and raid, and raid, all they like but it would get boring without gaining anything. Is that not part of the game? The accomplishment? The fact you are bettering yourself? Without MB, they would just have copys of toons, they would get bored. I understand this. But unfortunately there are people like me, who work their ass on in RL, and still cant afford 6 accounts, and because they works so hard, dont have the time to make 6x toons even if they could afford. I play AO when i can, and i make the most of what i can. If you can get more out of the game for yourself that is fine, I do understand making it enjoyable for yourself. But remember there are many people like me.

I also understand that MB is part of a raidforce in PVP. i DONT like it, but its a way of life. Yes, i would love nothing more than to see it go. It would enhance the enjoyability of my gameplay so much more. But would it ruin theirs? Maybe, maybe not. Is a raidforce of 6 people, not just as fun as a raidforce of 6mbers? Yes the towers go down slower, but for me, this is more interesting, more time to stratagize, etc etc. Being Insta killed IS a problem. It IS driving a lot of people away. It IS demoralizing people, they dont want to pvp anymore. And IS leading to people leaving. I have seen it happen. But this ISNT anybodys fault inparticular. AO is a game, it is the way it is. People leave ultimately, because THEY dont like AO anymore, for whatever aspect, it doesnt matter. They no longer enjoy the game, they leave.

For me, I have 1 220, I use this to gain my gear, my items. Most of my toons are twinks. I dont make the best twinks. They can hold their ground. A lot of 1v1 twinks beat me in pvp. And i smile, i dont care i died, I died because the other person was better. It is very very annoying when i spent ALL my creds that i try very hard to make, and feel like ive wasted ALL my time, when i got into towers with 3-4 people, and 2 of us insta die to 6x agent twinks (one person is AS'd, the other is perked and flinged, or whatever). I dont care what anybody says, you cant counter 6x agents in sneak without a much larger raidforce, which is impossible for us people who dont earn enough in RL to afford the luxury of MBing, with the population low we cant muster up 10 people with a keen interest in pvp to spend all their creds and time making twinks. It is a case of we either give up, or we sell ourselves on street corners just so we can go home with sore asses to set up an MB to atleast have a fighting chance. For me, and i speak for myself only, THIS is my only issue with MB. You cant have fun with a few friends who enjoy pvp anymore. AO just doesnt have the numbers of pvp enthusiasts to maintain pvp, while MB lives.

And please, dont tell me to get more friends to pvp with. My org has already set up an alliance purely for pvp, and actually, purely to try and counter the MB and try and have some fun. Even with this alliance, we struggle to make more than 6 people online at one time. I play AO because i have made friends here, whom i enjoy playing with. I enjoy playing a key role where we have to coordinate and work together, i enjoy the challenge that i must do my job or the team suffers. This is another reason why i dont MB. I enjoy the need for communication between players and skill. Yes i understand the MBers point, that with their MB they can remove the "rubbish" players. But isnt that part of a battle? You work towards bettering yourself, not gearwise, but skill wise. You help your org/team to learn their skillset and you practice and create good chemistry. Removing this aspect, to me, is a bit rubbish.

Tell me I dont like it because i cant afford it all you like, but at the end of the day, thats exactly what it is. I CANT afford it, i AM jealous. But there is NOTHING i can do about it and it DOES ruin my gameplay. And although i speak only for myself here, I know im not the only one. Feel free to say im whining, and not providing any use because I am not coming up with a solution. I feel FC will be reading peoples opinions more than anything. They are the experts, they know how it all works. If they feel something needs to change, only they know what can be done, if anything at all. And if they feel it is needed, they will try im sure. But they can only do so if people voice their opinions. The OP had the right idea, but started to lose the plot and just started getting angry, which is a shame.

This is my opinion. MB is great for pvm, the effect of the market hasnt bothered me as of yet.
But please, this agent sneak and insta gank is unfair on people who want to pvp with their friends, but cant. This has to stop.