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Thread: Zazen again

  1. #1

    Zazen again

    I have one question

    Why does using zazen forces MA to sacrifice BOTH - our damage AND our evades, also increasing nanocost?

    Why not make it only lower damage, or only lower defence, or, better, give us an option - pick one of two stances, debuffing either damage or evades/aad?
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  2. #2
    Because it's a massive increase in healing output.

    Do you have a legitimate reason why MAs should get full evades or damage on top of Zazen heals?
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  3. #3
    The healing is massive so it feels quite warranted atm, but we'll see what happens this week with the next batch of rebalancing, if the healing where to be nerfed we'll be in a whole other position to advice on change.
    Don't you just hate this kind of ppl
    http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/w...rouscranus.htm

  4. #4
    I don't have an MA, but looking at the + % Nano cost, I think it seems a bit steep. Might be worth taking another look at that. It probably wouldn't be too bad of an idea to be a bit more forgiving on evades, too.

    I still think if healing gets way better, damage should suffer, but the rest... Possibly not so much.

    Just my 2c. I know most MA's aren't really seeing the value in Zazen, but it's actually temping me to make one to see how it goes.
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  5. #5
    Maybe make the -evades and -damage scale, for example, a % decrease, so it would scale better throughout all level ranges.

  6. #6
    MA can not replace doc or be even close to docs in healing, and MA also doesn't have UBT. So MA can not be picked as primary healer on a serious raid. If not, why pick MA as a second healer, if you can pick advy, who will also CH AND will not loose damage for healing

    So - no healing role for MA in PVM raids. So what's the role of a zazen MA in a raid? Switch to healing when it goes bad? Don't think so.
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  7. #7
    I was in a raid with MA healing 12m and he had zero problems.

    An advy CH'd occasionally but it didn't seem like it was needed.

    There are loads of init debuffs in game, and they don't stack with UBT. Also, who do you think doc's are UBTing? trash mobs or something? If MA really wants to reduce incoming damage, they can stack these:


    https://aoitems.com/item/248729/red-dusk/
    +
    https://aoitems.com/item/226169/incapacitate/

    if timed well you get about 15s of -1000 inits, then 19s of -1300 inits

    Or if you stack em, about 19s of -2300 inits and -100% nano interrupt

    That's pretty reasonable since they stack with crat debuffs/shade debuffs.

    Anyway, doc doesn't need to UBT, and quite frankly, UBT is a waste of a good cast with slow cast time, and only 45s duration. Better off to refresh Team enhanced deathless blessing, refresh ILC or reload a dot.

    MA doesn't need to refresh hots since all MA casts translate into big hots. MA healing a PVM raid is completely feasible.

  8. #8
    I don't think it's true.. And 12m is not a serious raid, its doable with only one team or even less. If that was a soldier tank and you completed instance while AMS? What were the teams?

    How do you know CH was not needed? CH is a way to fully heal HP buffer enforcers provide. MA can not effectively heal enforcer tank (sometimes doc can not outheal with BI)

    And would be also nice to see your MA level and equip. Hope you have one.
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Anyway, doc doesn't need to UBT, and quite frankly, UBT is a waste of a good cast with slow cast time, and only 45s duration. Better off to refresh Team enhanced deathless blessing, refresh ILC or reload a dot.
    Oh didn't notice it. Discussion is over then. lmao
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  10. #10
    I agree with that 100%, you have shades and crats that provide the same amount of init debuff with less of a loss. A doc can focus on healing, dotting, etc while a crat can hit that one nano with less recharge/downtime and a shade just has to hit q on a mob to debuff it.

  11. #11
    So, to replace a doc you need a shade, a crat and a ma with adv behind with ch ready?
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  12. #12
    Well, mixing paper pve and biased examples (with a touch of wannabe humourous/spiritual taunt) you can reach any goal you want and still not convince anybody.

    You're just of the few remaining MAs that dont like Zazen, fine, there are pros and cons. You might actually have a pre 18.7 MA, that doesn't make you legit, since you obviously don't use Zazen, and don't focus on (a) healing (setup). Fine too, just being able to chain solo/team heals makes us better anyway.

    Now the fun and new part is you're not discussing DD MA lack of love, but Zazen, paper Zazen, with your mind set on pre 18.7 whatever rebalance the whole game got...

    Most content could be done with crat/doc/sold or crat/doc/enf... MOST content, as you can dual or solo a large part of it, Beast remaining the hardest encounter (yet doable with the trinity) and 12man requiring a given team setup.

    Add any prof to the holy trinity, you'll make things easier. Throw in a Zazen MA, with it's high heals with hots and ability to chain solo/team, and ANY prof, they'll replace the doc, with hots, reflects, DD, nanoregen, drains, add. healing, defense... Fixer, Keeper, MP, Trader, Adv, Engi, Shade, NT, they will ALL add to the team AND to the Zazen MA. But people must think TEAM again.

    Do you really think your MA suffers from lower evades and damage while healing ?

    Let's talk about soloing now. We gained the abiltiy to chain solo/team heals, and it's op. Slap in Zazen, we get a huge healing boost. Now, with 500 less EVADES, how is our defense - of which healing is a deciding part - REALLY affected ? Against which mobs ? Won't it be covered by the huge +heal we got ? Well, afaik I couldn't solo LOTV before. It's LONG, it's kinda frustrating, but it's DOABLE. What you would like is being able to do it with your actual DD/ultralow nanoskills equip/setup, thus only getting 100% benefit from Zazen. Well, I'm sorry, only MPs got 100 benefit from 18.7 (and shades maybe), every other prof has lost something.

    You're not forced into using Zazen, and on paper it just sucks, ok. But in a regular team, knowing how docs have been bored for years, you can absolutely be main healer as long as you take the time to switch some items, then you don't care about -crit -evades and -dmg. Get a real support setup, and you're done with a good margin, doing 5 times better than any adv.

    Then, if you feel you'd need a CH/ICH, focus on your mates' gameplay first, for NO fight actually requires it. CH is a comfort, real people have been complaining for long about it, bad people have been relying on it for long. It made the whole content far too easy, and killed teams. Dual your "tank" and doc, attack the target, switch to doc and chain CH, you're done, even easier with a soldier. Sorry, though I absolutely love to kill Ian Warr that way, it's just stupid and killed the game. Now 18.7 nerfed it at last, and high end encounters didn't stop.

    Zazen is not "perfect", it requires you think like a doc/healer would, and people think "team" and not "let's do it us 2 or 3 and sell the LR". But it works. And, once again, the fact we can chain solo and team heals (did I already mention it ?) in itself is a HUGE boost to old fashionned MAs.

    It's up to you to change your mind or not. It's easy to underline the paper weaknesses, easier even with such a low MA community, 99% of them clustered in pre 18.7, so very few Zazen defenders. It's even easier to focus on how MA sucks in pvp and argue moar heals won't cope with terrible damage and lower defense. It won't deny how potent Zazen is.

    Zazen is too much of a thing, it was very clumsy to give us a healing stance and this only, more clumsy to slap basic MA players (not well known for being the smartest ones), but it's easy to complain while you could have been part of the rebalance process. Now, test it, think about it, propose things, it might be a little more relevant than mocking/arguing/complaining, only weapons of the weak.

    Let's see if upcoming patches nerf Zazen, then we can talk.
    220/70/30 OpiFix - Useless PVM Ex RK Queen
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    220/80/30 Crat - Why the hell do other profs still exist ?

    And tons of alts !

  13. #13
    Yet again. Why pick a MA in Zazen? It's a complete loss of DD, it's worse than DOC, and ADV is better as backup healer PLUS dd on raid.

    Don't forget about nanocost in zazen, it will take more than just a little swap to perform as a healer in zazen, there is not much nanodelta/nanocost support in infantry symbs, and if you're in support, you will nerf your not-zazen gameplay.

    And again. Why must zazen take off not only evades, but DD from MA (almost completely, since MA relies on crit)

    The problem imo is that zazen is discussed on paper with players who don't even care about ma and never played it. They only care for ma not getting 'too high' compared to profession they play.
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  14. #14
    Imho a quick and dirty Fix to Zazen would be to remove both the +100% Heal AND the -100% Crit .
    Loosing add-Dmg and Evades while playing Healmonkey is okay in my Book , but dont you dare to mess with Critrate ...... Boot to the Head

    " The problem imo is that zazen is discussed on paper with players who don't even care about ma and never played it. They only care for ma not getting 'too high' compared to profession they play. " <<< Sadly there is no Option to ignore those Dummys in just a specific Subforum ...... Man my Ignore-List would GROW a lot if they added that...
    MA 4 Life ... No matter how hard you try, you can't put us down.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post


    Anyway, doc doesn't need to UBT, and quite frankly, UBT is a waste of a good cast with slow cast time, and only 45s duration.
    it holds 1.30 min

    I know zazen is a choice you can either go for it or let it. Ok nice to have something as tool if you would like to use it.
    What i am missing is the replace for the 30 % heal we lost. And also other profs gained more ar so there is even needed more heal to sustain ( talking about pvp) . Is zazen now the only thing we get in return? For pvp its a dmg cripple while ma has to crit and do good sneakattacks and fastattacks. Also the add dmg takes away even the perk dmg.
    Last edited by Rockleee; May 20th, 2015 at 00:45:01.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Izolenta View Post
    Yet again. Why pick a MA in Zazen? It's a complete loss of DD, it's worse than DOC, and ADV is better as backup healer PLUS dd on raid.
    Do you have any evidence for this?

    Doc's got a minor boost to DPS in 18.7 with dots being much faster to load and the ability to spam malp... but it's not like if a doc is actually needed that a doc can be sitting there in nano reacharge from DPSing the whole time and still heal effectively...

    Docs can do low-moderate DPS if healing isn't needed, whereas if healing is needed, docs do a bit less than that.

    Zazen MA's, on the other hand (We have to assume that an MA has appropriate gear here) - something like this would be decent for an MA:

    http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=200488

    Note that here I've swapped out of all crit adding items in preference of add dmg. The reason for this should be obvious, (-100% crit is a full reduction, whereas -550 add dmg only means that add dmg is lowered, and all add dmg still actually boosts damage output).

    A setup like this can DPS at 100% of (in zazen) capacity regardless of how much healing has to be done, which is in stark contrast to doctor where continuous healing will significantly reduce damage dealing capability.

    Also, from your quote - I'm not sure why you say advy makes a better back-up healer, advy is a backup healer, but MA is DD. MA can, however instantly turn into a primary healer, whereas advy can not. If a raid has a doctor as a primary healer, and an advy as the secondary - great! A raid could also have a Doc as primary healer with an MA, who, if the doc fails could immediately take over primary healer.

    That's the beauty of zazen.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockleee View Post
    it holds 1.30 min

    I know zazen is a choice you can either go for it or let it. Ok nice to have something as tool if you would like to use it.
    What i am missing is the replace for the 30 % heal we lost. And also other profs gained more ar so there is even needed more heal to sustain ( talking about pvp) . Is zazen now the only thing we get in return? For pvp its a dmg cripple while ma has to crit and do good sneakattacks and fastattacks. Also the add dmg takes away even the perk dmg.
    If you're talking about PvP as you say, then UBT does indeed lasts for only 45s. Also, you are still ignoring that now you can use both the single and team heal one after the other, because your heals no longer put you in recharge for 8-11s.
    I think someone calculated old and new healing throughput here, but you chose to ignore that there as well.
    No further significant work is expected to be done on this project going forward.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Do you have any evidence for this?

    That's the beauty of zazen.
    Yes I have. I have a MA. And I know how does MA do damage. And you have no idea about it. Thats a pure bull**** about 'add dmg' replacing crit. Know why? Because of MA fists and weapon templates, having pretty low min damage and high crit modifier. MA will loose, I suppose ~80% of damage without crits.

    Your idea about swapping crit items to +dmg is stupid also. You can not swap AI armor, and few items if you don't have AT3 perked. You also can't swap calculators and other stuff if you're not solitus (1k int)

    So you have to stick with that crappy no-damage-dealing setup for all the time you play. And what do we get for it? AN ABILITY TO BE BACKUP HEALER. What a change. Like there are not enough healers already.

    Again. I'am not going to agrue it on paper with players who have no idea about MA as a profession. And I have not seen a single post from a MA player supporting Zazen as it is now. It must be changed.

    And btw, how are you going to pvp in setup like that lol?
    Last edited by Izolenta; May 20th, 2015 at 09:06:20.
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bendaar View Post
    If you're talking about PvP as you say, then UBT does indeed lasts for only 45s. Also, you are still ignoring that now you can use both the single and team heal one after the other, because your heals no longer put you in recharge for 8-11s.
    I think someone calculated old and new healing throughput here, but you chose to ignore that there as well.
    Aw. Nice. Calculations. I like them. Could you please find also calculations of damage dealt to MA pre and post LE? No? Because you never cared about it. How are we supposed to handle all that crap like increased pets ar, doubles/triples, 3.5+ common ar on most professions, decreased defensive checks on perks? With 50% increase of healing power? It's not enough.
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Izolenta View Post
    Aw. Nice. Calculations. I like them.
    Good !

    Quote Originally Posted by Izolenta View Post
    Could you please find also calculations of damage dealt to MA pre and post LE? No? Because you never cared about it.
    Indeed. There is no reason why I should. There is only the now. The past is past and doesn't influence the now.
    Only when people complain about "everything was better in the past" these comparisons are useful to demonstrate the fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Izolenta View Post
    How are we supposed to handle all that crap like increased pets ar, doubles/triples, 3.5+ common ar on most professions, decreased defensive checks on perks? With 50% increase of healing power? It's not enough.
    Stop acting like MAs are the only ones affected by the changes in 18.7. The game changed for everyone. But to answer your question : "Similar to how other people deal with these changes. Evolve or die."
    No further significant work is expected to be done on this project going forward.

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