Crat's are nerfed

[Raggy]

So you're saying crats being unperkable without MR and unperkable even with MR if they have dtb up (which is on a shorter cd and thus up more often) is considered balanced? Most professions have been brought down to more reasonable levels. With MR and MR related alphas getting nerfed into the ground so too did the defences that have been traditionally used to counter those offensive tools. Simply put, crats have to rely on active defenses more instead of teaming an adv keep and engie and /discoing at core completely ignoring all damage that comes their way.

I can see both sides of this argument since I'm playing a prof with neither a good static defence nor a reliable active one lol.

The problem inherent in the idea of popping DtB as a means of defence is largely nullified by everyones ability to queue 8 billion perks in a nanosecond. It makes reactive defence utterly pointless. So until Perks check defence at the end of cast, all evade profs without a high static defence are essentially screwed.

But you are right, that DtB itself will mostly negate incoming damage for it's duration, making it an exceptional tool in mass PvP.


It's a two-way street sadly.

[Xootch]

Found the crat that doesn't know how to use dtb! Crats were just as perkable before with brute force (Read: MR, which has been nerfed into the ground so hard it tunneled through the earth and ended up in china) and they survived just fine with creative use of dtb and that stupid low check aoe root. They can survive just fine now with the same tactics.

this.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

So you're saying crats being unperkable without MR and unperkable even with MR if they have dtb up (which is on a shorter cd and thus up more often) is considered balanced?

I didn't say anything of the sort.
How could MR possibly matter when you're changing the requisite conditions in the two situations described?

{edited}

Most professions have been brought down to more reasonable levels. With MR and MR related alphas getting nerfed into the ground so too did the defences that have been traditionally used to counter those offensive tools. Simply put, crats have to rely on active defenses more instead of teaming an adv keep and engie and /discoing at core completely ignoring all damage that comes their way.

Why on earth are you still talking about MR?

What does MR have to do with ANYTHING?

{edited}

[Lazy]

{edited} MR was a perk that gave you a reliable way to land your faceroll on evade profs. since we are talking about face rolling evade profs it's only natural that MR will be brought up. now that we understand why MR is relevant to a discussion on evade profs evading perks, let's move on.

How were crats affected by this change? you claim they are perkable in mass pvp due to lower buffs from other profs. I'm claiming this is irrelevant as they have access to the highest single aad boosting perk ingame. In short, they don't need other buffs because they are already unperkable on demand And can safely ignore even the new neutered tool that used to be used to deal with their active defenses. {edited} Did you forget that crats also have the strongest cc toolset in the game? {edited}

[McKnuckleSamwich]

{edited}

You don't need MR to perk crats.

Take your fixer, get in a team, find a crat, press Q, do your "faceroll" thing, crat dead. Did you perk MR? no. Is the crat dead? Yes.

{edited}

[Lazy]

I didnt realize fixers suddenly got a 3800 ar buff to pox crats reliably. I must have been doing it wrong all this time! Thanks mck for showing us that crats die through their major defense tool. Without you we never would have known that. Because it seems like every other crat knows how their toolset works except you.EDIT. And if you want to perk a 3600 aad crat on a fixer you need to at least land LICC. If you want 100% check perks to go through you need po to land as well. Without a capping fa or as a stim and nm coon is all it takes to survive a fixer alpha. You have to land both those Nanos while under init debuffs and while maintaining snares on both pets and healing up the nuke and as damage the gets thrown out. but you wouldn't know that since you're still figuring out how active defenses work

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I didnt realize fixers suddenly got a 3800 ar buff to pox crats reliably. I must have been doing it wrong all this time! Thanks mck for showing us that crats die through their major defense tool. Without you we never would have known that. Because it seems like every other crat knows how their toolset works except you.

{edited} yes, if you don't know how to do it, its that you aren't queuing your perks fast enough)

Try this on for size:

3300 AR advy (2400pistol skill, 900k AR) not EVEN teamed (my advy has base 4300 AR in my box and can perk everyone bar none)

2300/0.8 + 900 = 3775 AR

Ta-da! perkable crat.

Now, in Mass PVP, crat will get some OSB, but NEARLY as much defence as an advy will get AR. So, crat gets about:

210 (best possible team mate = keeper)
120 (MA, OSB'd)
110 AAD (advy)

for a total of 440 evades

Advy, on the other hand gets:

393 for teaming with a crat...
Add EP and there you go.

Don't even have to take into account keeper/trader.

So, that wasn't so hard?

Lets try another prof:

fixer say.

how much AR a fixer got? I'm not sure. Lets say 3300 again.

Put LICC on same bind as jarring burst/other SMG buffs, and there ya go don't even need OSB.

This is easier than I thought.

Lets keep going.

MA for example:

3200 base AR pops moonmist 3420 AR

spams flower of life (notably MA doesn't even need to use delirium) with 85% check and crat east invisible debuff, MA queues all perks

Have you noticed yet that the problem isn't necessarily a problem of perkable defence, but of STATIC defence?

You can queue all your SL and AI perks before DTB goes up. It takes less than 1s which is the execution time. If a crat blows his DTB, (which is exactly what I've been saying this whole time) he's dead in the water. Crats got a TOTAL of 21s+30s to live. the 500 AAD a crat gets on overrule and blast shield won't help him vs high AR attackers and we've only covered the profs that don't even NEED to be teamed yet to kill a crat.

But lets keep going:

Soldier (lets do SMG sold since those are widely regarded as lower AR, just so I can show you have bad it is)

3300 AR (2300 SMG skill, 1k AAO)
2300/0.8+1000 = 3875 AR (queue perks, dead crat)

Lets try another, keeper..

3300 AR
run up queue crave+feast+SND all land dead crat.

ok, I'm getting tired of this, but w/e, keep going.

Agent in moderate AR setup (no reason not to be, can go up to 3400 AR, but calc at 3300 AR)

3300 AR, 2350 rifel skill, 950 AAO

2350/0.8 +950AAO = near 3900 , (but even if he didn't have it, he could just team to make crats easygankable), start with stun..ffs, why are we still going?

{edited}

The point is that crat needs 1s to react - but GL with that, I mean, 99% of the time you need to be looking at about 5-8 different things on the screen, so usually an entire alpha can be queued before a crat is even aware that he's targeted.

Here's a challenge for you, why don't try PVPing without SWS or hots... then tell me how you like playing crat.

[Lazy]

The point is that crat needs 1s to react - but GL with that, I mean, 99% of the time you need to be looking at about 5-8 different things on the screen, so usually an entire alpha can be queued before a crat is even aware that he's targeted.

So your issue is lack of situational awareness and not of crat defenses. got it.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

So your issue is lack of situational awareness and not of crat defenses. got it.

wow. I didn't expect this.

No bro, the difference is that instantaneous <1s

0s<1s

{edited}

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Unless you are keen on having the more serious mechanic revision that includes perk checks occurring on completion of queue as opposed to at the beginning of queue, crats will continue to be seriously, badly, and irreversible WTF nerfed.

[Lazy]

{edited} There have been no direct nerfs to crat def tools. They function just like they did before the patch. Crats have been strong solo before the patch and they will continue to be strong today. Losing a bit of team static defense doesn't offset the strong active defense that good crats know how to take advantage of. {edited}

[Cratertina]

Lol, crats are nerfed? Yes. But mostly crats are as good as ever, maybe you cannot go full AR setup snd not get perked.

[Dumonde]

Hi Folks,

this is a strange conversation. Again, I do not understand MrsKnucklesamwitch - maybe I am just too noob, dumb or whatever. Is someone able to explain his problem, in simple words, to me?
We are "nerfed", somehow, yes. If game designers are balancing all existing professions of a game, this naturally means that hands are put on all professions - especially really strong professions. And everyone who now wants to tell us that a "Buerocrat" was not really strong, is a freaking liar.

In fact, we are not "nerfed" - we are just a bit more balanced, nothing more.

Greetings,
Dumonde

[Le-Quack]

Speaking of PvP as you do - only soldiers have good defensive toolset to effectively survive in mass PvP, and its called AMS.
If you expect to tank 3+ players same time as crat - then I can bring any other profession here and speak about lack of defences and survival toolset also.
Crats still have very strong CC toolset, as far as high self static def. Add nanomage booster, MoTR, some skills, and crats can survive pretty much nicely in mass PvP except when being called and assisted by enemy blob, but then again, noone will survive that technically.

Crat is awesome support profession who, if played wise, can play key role in both, outdoor and tower pvp no matter of numbers. And I'm clearly sure crat isn't supposed to be tank/debuffer/healer/CCer same time.
Pick your role and choose your profession to match it perfectly. If you dislike the purpose of specific prof - pick another, problem solved.

well said

[Anarrina]

That's enough of the personal attacks. Of the conversation between two people, I don't believe I left any post untouched. Please do not make me come back here and do that again. Discuss the ideas, do not attack the person.

[Lazy]

but he started it!

[Aiken]

I just wanted to be clear in this thread how much I disagree with MKS' OP because my earlier posts of derision were removed.

[Waahash]

The point is that crat needs 1s to react - but GL with that . . . so usually an entire alpha can be queued before a crat is even aware that he's targeted.

This is not crat specific; every active defense has to be activated. That's the definition of react.

[Zixx]

That's enough of the personal attacks. Of the conversation between two people, I don't believe I left any post untouched. Please do not make me come back here and do that again. Discuss the ideas, do not attack the person.

Throw a troll in the room, close the door, open when it's all quiet, problem solved = everyone happy

[Anarrina]

Throw a troll in the room, close the door, open when it's all quiet, problem solved = everyone happy

I really hate having to clean blood off the walls and floors, though.