Crat's are nerfed

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The problem with crats is complex, and it's hard to put your finger on the problem.

Solo, crats are fine, but 90% of activities in AO are not solo. So we need to look at crats in context of group activities.

Crats are most likely 'fine' in PVM, crats are not fine in PVP.

Here is why:

Crats are meant to be a support prof, there's no question about that, but there are sub-types of support, and crat has a refined role of "enabling", Crat's are enablers.

In order to explain this more fully, consider a few different team mates:

crat + enforcer => enforcer becomes an evader and requires much less healing to survive, enforcer has much lower requirement to use challenger, can perk nearly indiscriminately, provide serious kill power, while crat enables the enforcer.
The crat gains little from this teammate, perhaps a bit more HP if desired, but arguably, the crat gains nothing, but he empowers his teammate to provide substantial killpower/survival.

crat + MA/shade => MA/shade becomes a glorified gankmachine and with heightened killpower/survival. Again, same thing as with enforcer, MA however, can provide some healing to the crat, and buff his evades by 120, crit by 8%.

Crat + doctor => for most doctor setup's, this really isn't the greatest matchup. A doc in full CC/AR setup can make use of the crat AR to boost killpower, but realistically neither party really gains a lot here, however, both members could play very defensively and could be very difficult to take down.

The point I'm trying to make here, is that in any given matchup, a crat generally enables others via commanding presence and HM/IHM. At 220 crats can provide 75AAD + 410AAD+ 100AAD = 585AAD , as well as 260 AAO+ 133AAO = 393 AAO and 60 nano delta on top. These are quite significant buffs, in fact, they are enough to enable other reasonably high AR profs to become juggernauts of destruction.

So, let us consider what a crat gains out of any pairing vs what a crat might face in opposition.

Firstly - crats are an evade prof. Their SOLE means of defence is avoidance of damage via evades (blast shield now has gotten a boost, but is generally a last ditch emergency item due to it destroying your pet).

A fully buffed (no raidbuffs/towers) crat in a standard (full CSS) setup, ofab back and evade items in utils/huds and full alphas sits in the region of 3400 evades+AAD.

The average direct combat prof has varying levels of 'base' 'buffed' AR, but varies between about 3100 and 3400 with agents nearer the bottom, MA/advy/enf in the middle and sold/keeper at the top end, notably, however, agent and advy have perks that check 80% which means that Crat in a BASE state... is perkable already.

But here is where things get very bad, even worse than they already are. When any one of these profs TEAM with a crat, and oppose their mirror i.e a clan advy/crat vs a Omni advy/crat the crat on either side of the engagement is basically at a COMPLETE loss.

In not ONE matchup, can a crat expect to rely on his PRIMARY defence for longer than 50 seconds. (ES is 30s, DtB is 21s)

In any matchup with almost any other teammate, a crat irrevocably becomes dependent on his teammate for survival.

Consider the alternative, for a moment:

If you pair a keeper and crat, the crat gains 210 AAD, 110AAO, but the keeper gains ~400 AAO and 585AAD.

The keeper becomes unperkable to ANY other prof in base state, and becomes a perk launching juggernaut, able to land his perks on nearly any prof, including, say, a crat teamed with a keeper!

And that is the best team mate a crat could ask for in terms of reciprocal buffing.

Advy used to be able to give crats 261 evades, now, they give 110 AAD.
MA's can give 120 evades.
Traders can give 110 evades.
Fixer can give 78 evades.

The bottom line? crats are dead in the water in mass PVP.

So, here is the only PLAUSIBLE solution I can see:

Crats need heroic measures line to give an INCREASED buff to self, based on the number of teammates. Otherwise, crats will continue to be in a very bad place.

Here is what I suggest:

Crat solo: IHM gives self 410AAD/133AAO (410AAD/133AAO to team for all # of teammates)
Crat with 1 teammate, self: 440AAD/133AAO
crat with 2 teammates, self 490AAD/150AAO
Crat with 3 teammates, self 550AAD/180AAO
Cra with 4 teammates, self 610AAD/200AAO
Crat with 5 teammates, self 650AAD/220AAO

This fits with the crat "profession" with the crat gaining power with a larger team, the leader is enabled by enabling others - a mutually beneficial relationship, AND promotes teaming.

[Nermal]

Crats can lived nerfed a few years, to make up for the years broken and OP'ed.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Crats can lived nerfed a few years, to make up for the years broken and OP'ed.

They don't live. That's the point.

I'm not suggesting that crats "live" indefinitely though, I'm only showing why they are gimp right now.

Put differently, the total available NON-crat static/long term boosts available via teammates are:

keeper: 2 blockers/18s (in PVP this is nothing), 210 AAD, 110 AAO
MA: 120 evades
advy: 110 AAD
trader: 110 evades (doesn't stack), 153 AR

which amount to TOTAL: 440 evades, 263 AR

So, if a crat teams with the three MOST beneficial OSBer's, a crat gains a pittance of what he provides to others, WORSE still, is this, as I mentioned before, being the crux of the problem:

If a crat teams with the three best team-mates for survival the crat is STILL incapable of utilizing his core defence, in comparison to what the crat buffs on others...

a keeper OR MA OR trader OR advy teamed with a crat only has his core toolset BOOSTED, whereas, if a crat is faced by an opponent teamed with a crat, the crat becomes completely dependent on short term defences which provide a mere 50s of reliable defence followed by complete reliance on his teammates core toolset in order to stay alive.

A crat should not be a leech. A crat should be capable of utilizing his core defences regardless of situation.

[Nermal]

Multibox more toons, solved.

[Mountaingoat]

My remod crat has just about 3900 def. Worst case scenario, use the various forms of CC we have access to as the most powerful CC'ing profession. I do hear what your saying, but frankly an AS setup should not be the default crat PVP setup. If it is necessary, then the profession needs to be fixed. See the recent improvement of MP's.

[Raggy]

I find this exceptionally humorous since this is the exact boat Traders have been in for years.

Just without pets. Or CiB. Or reliably landing debuffs. Or a reasonable static defence.

[lufa1982]

I'm sorry, but 2009-2014 Pistol Crat was completely insane and you know it. One profession should never be primary debuffer, primary damage dealer, primary crowd control and have one of the best support buffs. And I main Crat, mind you. The holy trinity sold-doc-crat run this entire game for last 6 years and was about bloody time this ended.

Crats are still absolutely fine. The major problem right now is that best PvP setup (remod) is extremely suboptimal for PvM and the best PvM setup (pistols) isn't functioning in PvP anymore. So something needs to happen, but it needs to be in line of Crat class archetype, not more AS, more damage rararara nonsense. The problem is, Michi's current policy seems to be very focused on nerfing debuffs all-across the board (and this applies to all the support classes) so I doubt he will suddenly change his mind.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The reality is that crats fundamental, primary defence is non-functional in mass PVP. I don't know how many other ways there are to say it.

I crats got acrobat, then we're getting somewhere.

[Raggy]

The reality is that crats fundamental, primary defence is non-functional in mass PVP. I don't know how many other ways there are to say it.

I crats got acrobat, then we're getting somewhere.

Just like Traders.

Welcome to the club. Population: Us and you.

[Lazy]

Found the crat that doesn't know how to use dtb! Crats were just as perkable before with brute force (Read: MR, which has been nerfed into the ground so hard it tunneled through the earth and ended up in china) and they survived just fine with creative use of dtb and that stupid low check aoe root. They can survive just fine now with the same tactics.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Found the crat that doesn't know how to use dtb! Crats were just as perkable before with brute force (Read: MR, which has been nerfed into the ground so hard it tunneled through the earth and ended up in china) and they survived just fine with creative use of dtb and that stupid low check aoe root. They can survive just fine now with the same tactics.

for 21s.

/agreed

But what you missed is that crats don't survive advy/agent/soldier/keeper/shade/MA without MR. Since when did this discussion become about MR? Crats are nerfed because they can't get enough defence in the BEST made up team now, because there AREN'T enough sources that are large enough to offset the offensive gains in mass PVP.

It's just math, man.

In 18.6 a crat got:

210 AAD from keeper
261 evades from advy
120/78 evades from MA/fixer

which was almost enough to keep them out of trouble but with 18.7 crats are WTF nerfed to sh*t.

1. ICRT doesn't stack with predator
2. advy 261 evades --> 110 AAD
3. leaving 210 from keep/120 from MA

Which means crats get a mind bendingly brutal nerf of 261-110+75 = 226 evades in mass PVP

While, simultaneously, direct combat classes got an AR boost of at LEAST 110-25 = 85AR and some profs went significantly higher with serious lowering of checks.

That means, all in crat is now nerfed by effectually by 311 effective defense rating vs ALL of the profs which usually are out to kill crats.

[Cratertina]

So crat can now sometimes die? How is that a problem? Professions that cannot die should be fixed, and maybe AAO team buffs be brought under control.

Crat should move thorwards nanoskill setups and 2700ish AR, survival through evades and debuffs, potentially AAO debuffing nukes trader stylez, or damage to pets similar to MP.

Disclamer my Crat main feels buffed in 18.7.

[Lazy]

for 21s./agreedBut what you missed is that crats don't survive advy/agent/soldier/keeper/shade/MA without MR. Since when did this discussion become about MR? Crats are nerfed because they can't get enough defence in the BEST made up team now, because there AREN'T enough sources that are large enough to offset the offensive gains in mass PVP.It's just math, man.In 18.6 a crat got:210 AAD from keeper261 evades from advy120/78 evades from MA/fixerwhich was almost enough to keep them out of trouble but with 18.7 crats are WTF nerfed to sh*t.1. ICRT doesn't stack with predator2. advy 261 evades --> 110 AAD3. leaving 210 from keep/120 from MAWhich means crats get a mind bendingly brutal nerf of 261-110+75 = 226 evades in mass PVPWhile, simultaneously, direct combat classes got an AR boost of at LEAST 110-25 = 85AR and some profs went significantly higher with serious lowering of checks.That means, all in crat is now nerfed by effectually by 311 effective defense rating vs ALL of the profs which usually are out to kill crats.

All this means is Crats can't stand around and have to use active Def tools to deal with alphas. what exactly is the problem. Crats still have a way of evading any alpha. it just means there's a clear window of safe and unsafe and a crat has to play smart instead of standing around spamming /disco and as as their pets maul their opponent...

[Aiken]

They don't maul, they just touch tenderly with force tyvm.

[Artyomis]

Speaking of PvP as you do - only soldiers have good defensive toolset to effectively survive in mass PvP, and its called AMS.
If you expect to tank 3+ players same time as crat - then I can bring any other profession here and speak about lack of defences and survival toolset also.
Crats still have very strong CC toolset, as far as high self static def. Add nanomage booster, MoTR, some skills, and crats can survive pretty much nicely in mass PvP except when being called and assisted by enemy blob, but then again, noone will survive that technically.

Crat is awesome support profession who, if played wise, can play key role in both, outdoor and tower pvp no matter of numbers. And I'm clearly sure crat isn't supposed to be tank/debuffer/healer/CCer same time.
Pick your role and choose your profession to match it perfectly. If you dislike the purpose of specific prof - pick another, problem solved.

[Raggy]

Anyone mind telling me the current static defence of an end-game Crat in 18.7 please?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I will check for you raggy.

I got a feeling it's 3600 def rating with both raidbuffs.

I played crat the other day in BS with no raidbuffs and just got annihilated over and over, it was very weird, like, if I didn't have DtB or ES up, I was dead in seconds.

With raidbuffs, crat is OK but not great, ICRT doesn't stack with predator now so crats got a direct nerf of 50AAD (and loss of 25AAO) neither of which helped, but broadly, at seems that many profs didn't necessarily get higher AR, but many got lower checking perks and crats are no longer "non-SL-perkable"

Crats are perkable. Which means that our core static defences don't work.

[Lazy]

I don't see a problem here

[srompu]

Anyone mind telling me the current static defence of an end-game Crat in 18.7 please?

3600 on neut NM with scope and DB3 util, no towers or raidbuffs.

[Lazy]

{edited by Anarrina: quoted post removed

So you're saying crats being unperkable without MR and unperkable even with MR if they have dtb up (which is on a shorter cd and thus up more often) is considered balanced? {edited} Most professions have been brought down to more reasonable levels. With MR and MR related alphas getting nerfed into the ground so too did the defences that have been traditionally used to counter those offensive tools. Simply put, crats have to rely on active defenses more instead of teaming an adv keep and engie and /discoing at core completely ignoring all damage that comes their way. {edited}