Lets go the other way with Troa'ler

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The reason for this suggestion is that the nerfs to Troa'ler pistol on 18.7 will send some profs to the dark ages (crat, engi, doctor) in terms of weapon choices. These changes do not overtly overpower the weapon, provide some lateral usage, and will give a bit of variance of how you can use the weapon, all the while keeping with reasonable special selection and making the weapon slightly more competitive in PVM.

Troa'ler Pistol <--Current version
To Equip User Pistol >= 2251 and
User Aimed shot >= 1651

Slot Right hand
Equip time 5s
Attack time 1.2s
Recharge time 1.5s
Range 20 m
Clip 100 - Bullets
Damage 225-225 (100) - Projectile AC
Attack rating cap 2750

User Modify Max health 300
User Modify Ranged init 50
User Modify Nano init 50
User Modify Full auto -2000
User Modify Offense modifier 15


How about this:

You combine Action Probability Estimator with Troa'ler Pistol and create The Jury's Pistol

The Jury's Pistol <--suggested LH variety

To Equip User Pistol >= 2251 and
User Aimed shot >= 1651
User Fling shot >=1651

Slot Left hand
Equip time 5s
Attack time 1.2s
Recharge time 1.5s
Range 20 m
Clip 100 - Bullets
Damage 225-255 (255) - Projectile AC
Attack rating cap 2750

User Modify Max health 300
User Modify Ranged init 50
User Modify Nano init 50
User Modify Full auto -2000
User Modify Offense modifier 15

And:

You combine Action Probability Estimator with The Jury's Pistol and create The Judge's Pistol

The Judge's Pistol

To Equip User Pistol >= 2451 and
User Aimed shot >= 1751

Slot Right Hand
Equip time 5s
Attack time 1.2s
Recharge time 1.5s
Range 20 m
Clip 100 - Bullets
Damage 260-325 (1) - Projectile AC
Attack rating cap 2850

User Modify Max health 300
User Modify Ranged init 50
User Modify Nano init 50
User Modify Full auto -2000
User Modify Offense modifier 15

[Raggy]

I get what you're trying to do, but why pistol? Can we not use one of the other weapon types? What if we finally got a GOOD RE weapon?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Too unsupported on armour/symbs/buffs.
Too few perks.
Not enough perk actions/minute.
Not enough research boosts.
Too low AR.
Not enough OSB.

Broadly: would make any evade prof unhittable.

[Wakizaka]

I see you sneaking in the 1.5s recharge time.
It was changed for a reason, and it won't send those profs back into the stone age.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Honestly, the 1.6 recharge on troa'ler is a downright stupid change. I've said in another thread that it makes absolutely no sense, and I stand by that.

I've asked Michi directly (in a PM) what the goal is in making it more difficult and even impossible for some profs to attain the 11s recharge using the only reasonable weapon choice that's functional for both PVP and PVM.

He didn't respond, so I've put together a reasonably feasible alternative that provides slightly better/different alternatives for support players who want to be capable of fluid transitions between PVM and PVP.

Nobody wants to use remodulator in PVM.
Nobody wants to use onehander in PVM.
Nobody wants to use some ridiculous imp setup that halves your nano delta so you can't even debuff/pet buff/nuke without having a nano support in team.
Nobody wants to cut their raid viability/damage dealing down by 1/3 just because they want to be PVP capable.
Nobody wants to use unsupported weaponry!

NOBODY WANTS TO USE WEAPONS FROM 7 YEARS AGO.

Like I said, I've asked Michi directly about why he wants to adjust the AS recharge. I gave him values on endgame breed/prof/setups that will be most adversely affected, through to breed/profs that this change will have negligible effect on.

I made sensible arguments that ALL PVPers have reliance on AS, and no PVPer will give it up, which only causes more difficulty playing, and doesn't make the game any more fun.

If the proposed change isn't commiserated by significant fundamental mechanics changes that will allow PVPers to achieve offensive gains in proportion to that which is being lost, the change won't go over well.

So far? Crats/docs/engi's are getting destroyed by the change. Look at the engi forums, it's awash with pissy conversation. Doc's don't seem to have any real concern since real PVP docs are defenders, not pew-pewers, but any doc who casually PVP's should realize the nerf bat that's about to knock them back to gimpdom. And crats I don't even want to go there, but crats need a supported weapon more than any other prof out there.

Crats have rock bottom add damage, are truly relegated to using full CSS for even remote chances of survival (not to mention the serious nerfs to survival pending ES adjustments), and then as a cherry on top, crats are getting a BIG nerf to offense as well? How is that even remotely close to cool?

Crats *are* stronger than average in PVM, and any hint of OP'ness in PVM is thrown out the window in 18.7 (which I'm fine with), but nerfing crats to hell in PVP is another ball game entirely. Crats are probably just barely above middle of the pack for PVP in 18.6, with some crats doing slightly better than that with towers and extreme setups to drop HP so that then can outheal/defend slightly longer than their opponents can... but these setups are not remotely good for PVM and thus are clearly sacrifice setups. Broadly speaking, crats aren't doing so well that they need to be batted out to right field to rot. The nuke changes to crats won't help worth crap in PVP, the proc adjustment isn't even remotely helpful for PVP, the ES change is bordering helpful but realistically makes big gaping holes in defence for far longer than it takes to killa crat with limited HP and no backup defences, and to top it off, the nerf to troaler is a serious, serious WTF assr*pe to crats.

The only other pistol users are MPs and Advy's. MP's I cannot speak to since I don't have one, and Advy's are the only prof that could actually use an offensive nerf, but the planned change to troa'ler in 18.7 won't address that. Ranged advy is by far and away in WAY WAY better position than engi/crat or doc, and yet they are not receiving ANY of the nerf... So, I don't know how the hell michi thinks that that is a good idea but I told him, and I'll state it again here, that the nerf to Troa'ler is completely ineffective at reducing the offensive capability of the only prof it should be - that being advy; while inadvertently completely bigbatnerfing the three profs who are arguably the least deserving of the nerf.

[Awikun]

Go back to dark ages and stop writing stupid suggestions ...
Creation of Troa'ler was a very bad move in a first place, the way it is getting nerfed is the right direction and to be honest it is not even nerfed enough.
What is stupid is that half of professions is willing to use it and that clearly shows that it was badly designed.
Your suggestion is trying to improve it instead of nerfing even more ...

One more thing pvp and pvm are 2 different things and there is absolutely no reason why top pvp twinks should be viable for pvm.
Building a twink/top character for pvm is quite different from pvp and when it comes to pvm, somebody who create a toon for pvm should have an advantage over somebody who builts toons for pvp.
Stick to your remodulators, craphanders etc. and stop whining that you sux in pvm raids...

[Artyomis]

I'm quite neutral to Troa'Ler changes because i see both, positive and negative effect in this change.

imho, I'd love to see AO PvP more team-oriented overall, no matter where it happens - outdoor/towers/bs.

As far as I'd love to see either capped specials with moderate/slow recharge cycle like SA, or random damage based specials with capped recharge (like onehander).
Plus, I'd love to see changes that will prevent any prof from alphakilling another prof (cept totally gimped setups maybe).
Plus, I'd love to see AS changes that will give us ability to fire AS in PvM without sneaking. Just make AS cooldown longer if fired without sneak, without nerfing its damage.

So, its not about Troa'Ler actually, it's about all AS/FA weapons and capped recharge

[Cratertina]

Just cap AS to 40 seconds for all weapons and make Tro'aler 1.2/1.2..

Personally I hate this stupid AS pistol... it is quite simply a a brute force solution to a bad mechanic.

Which is greatly undesirable.

Any profession should at endgame have several different weapon choices.

Example A(good):

Advy

Xan 1he's, Scimitars for evades,
Xan pistol, Tro'aler, FA pistol, Twitch/Reflex pistols...

A good mix of melee, pvm only, pvp only options.

Example B(bad)

Crat

Dual Pehwer for pvm, Troaler for pvp.

Like you say engi, doc have little alternative to Troaler in pvp... or do thay?

Can doc not heal team without troaler?

Can engi not dd and provide reflects/absorbs for team without troaler?

Can crat not cc and provide epic auras for team without troaler?

Fact that all these professions turn to Troaler to enhance their pev pev performance pretty much fits the definition of OP weapon, hence nerf.

Troaler should be nerfed until its not just one of many viable endgame options.


If anything like Artyomis says... make specials more moderate, 20-40 seconds. And more meaningful. Why shouldn't burst land similarly to AS? like first bullet extra 2000ar, second bullet extra 1000ar...

Why not change how evades work..

"Just make AS cooldown longer if fired without sneak, without nerfing its damage." or this ++ make recharge 20s longer if you fail concealment check.

Entire pvp balance should not be hostage to just one pistol.

[Samcon]

I support the weapon being completely removed and actual profession tools to combat high evade profs given to those using the troller and other bandaid-balance AS weapons.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'm all for specials being rebalanced.

But I seriously doubt FC has time for that.

The reality is that bad-aid fixes are called band-aids because there isn't time to fix significantly complex underlying issues.

So, forgive me if I've got the logic wrong here, but if FC isn't fixing the underlying problems... why would they remove the fix to balance them?

[Xootch]

you know what i'm gonna say, but here we go:

no. no. and no. troll pistol has to go. period. crats and engis do not need a reliable aimed shot weapon to kill people. can i understand that you don't want to let go? yes. but that doesn't justify anything. pet profs, especially crats and engis don't need this and should have never gotten it in the first place. and docs, i mean lol. docs should not have this either (sorry dumo). docs are already one of the two mightiest profs in mass pvp. no offense, but it is completely beyond me how anyone could even argue about this. crats, engis and docs, the three profs you mention, should have never gotten this pistol. they are more than fine without it.

and if there has to be something like this, i completely agree with raggy - it should not be a weapon of a line where even docs can perk anything below 3.2k - 3.3k def. that makes no sense. you get one of the best as weapons in game, one handed as well, and perks that hurt - a lot - as a profession that is not reliant on weapons to be effective whatsoever. can someone please enlighten me where the logic is in that?

amen.

i know its not removed just slightly nerfed, but making a point here.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

you know what i'm gonna say, but here we go:

no. no. and no. troll pistol has to go. period. crats and engis do not need a reliable aimed shot weapon to kill people. can i understand that you don't want to let go? yes. but that doesn't justify anything. pet profs, especially crats and engis don't need this and should have never gotten it in the first place. and docs, i mean lol. docs should not have this either (sorry dumo). docs are already one of the two mightiest profs in mass pvp. no offense, but it is completely beyond me how anyone could even argue about this. crats, engis and docs, the three profs you mention, should have never gotten this pistol. they are more than fine without it.

and if there has to be something like this, i completely agree with raggy - it should not be a weapon of a line where even docs can perk anything below 3.2k - 3.3k def. that makes no sense. you get one of the best as weapons in game, one handed as well, and perks that hurt - a lot - as a profession that is not reliant on weapons to be effective whatsoever. can someone please enlighten me where the logic is in that?

amen.

i know its not removed just slightly nerfed, but making a point here.

I understand your points, and I appreciate them.

The logic is that players for a long time have been asking for supported weaponry (assuming they want to be able to fight "normally" and by that I mean they want to be able to hit monsters not just miss, miss, miss), which they can also use for PVP.

I'll tell you, very succinctly what the problem is:

The game has been rebalanced taking into account that this weapon is in game.

Now, just think about that for a moment and consider the obviously perverse "rebalance" we're looking at if this weapon is suddenly nerfed to such a degree that these three support profs can no longer use it effectively.

Now, you and I both know that the game is not balanced around 1 vs 1 fighting, but, FC does seem to take it into consideration, in fact, quite frankly, a lot of the changes they make seem to be a direct result of 1 vs 1 fighting or to boost one class specifically, here are some examples to prove this point:

1. LE nemesis nanos (introduced)
2. LE nemesis nanos removed for some profs
3. LE nemesis nanos reworked for some profs
4. borrow reflect reworked
5. trader rebalance is being completely reworked as a (direct) result of endless QQ - which one can only assume is from ONE person in any given run in with a trader (because two people can flatten one trader almost 100% of the time)
6. Individual weapons are added that specifically benefit one class (X1-R4, Doc pistols, AMEP, Panther-> keeper, etc.)

So, in light of that, lets just consider the rebalance in terms of one or two classes which will be in significantly rougher shape after the troaler nerf, and one that isn't.

First up, Advy: Easily one of the top PVP profs in game. Extraordinarily easy to spam damage, super high AR, super high evades, super high healing, super good absorbs with second tier reflects as a backup. Probably the single most powerful prof in game currently with excellent PVM weapon choices, top of the line PVP weapon choices, broadly speaking by FAR the most effective defence/escape/heal under fire/escape and come back to kill toolset, and on top of that, brutal perk checks and special skill adding temp perks to further boost special damage for burst damage.

Summary: Advy is top ranked PVP and PVM (I have an opi advy, in FULL endgame gear, and it is the easiest toon I've ever had the pleasure of not playing. I DON'T play it. it's too easy. I run around BS, spam anyone I see and destroy anyone 95% of the time. I can kill collect on him like taking candy from a baby. It's BORING it's so easy).
The kicker: The troaler nerf won't affect him one bit.

Crat on the other hand: moderately well balanced currently. Can occasionally reap the rewards of utilizing toolset but NR is finicky and certainly can't be relied on. Is reliant on super high evades, which are only up <15% of the time. Can unload a fair bit of damage, but means to making kills relies on either debuffing the opponent and hoping they can't get heals off in time, spamming specials and nukes trying to break through defences, or using LOS to try to outlast the opponent without getting facerolled by significantly more powerful offense and defence. Overall, fairly well balanced, but certainly higher difficulty, but rewarding. Team bonuses are significant so I often play as an enabler than a direct combatant.

Summary: based on ALL parts of the toolset, crat is fairly evenly balanced. Losing a KEY part of that toolset (i.e. AS going from 11s recharge to 30+s recharge) will be a death knell and require a complete revamp. (there's nothing wrong with redoing gear).

However.... I've taken it upon myself to test other setups such as a full defensive build + remodulator to assess how effective nuking will be based on the obvious push to go in the nano AR direction post 18.7. And the bottom line is that Crats can't generate enough offense to make killed reliably, and still significantly suffer from having big holes in the defence.

Engi/doc I haven't tested in enough capacity to make an informed statement on but I can already tell with 100% certainty that the pistol adjustment significantly limits the swapability or lateral setup changes on those profs.

[Louderer789]

I see you sneaking in the 1.5s recharge time.
It was changed for a reason, and it won't send those profs back into the stone age.

The problem is that 1.6s recharge doesn't affect the profession who uses the pistol best at all (adv), while it affects the support profs by forcing them to revert to 2008 setups. It doesn't solve anything with AS - they gave a band-aid, then they ripped it off.

One more thing pvp and pvm are 2 different things and there is absolutely no reason why top pvp twinks should be viable for pvm.
Building a twink/top character for pvm is quite different from pvp and when it comes to pvm, somebody who create a toon for pvm should have an advantage over somebody who builts toons for pvp.
Stick to your remodulators, craphanders etc. and stop whining that you sux in pvm raids...

The goal of any decent game is to get people to participate in both. When you force people to have disparate setups for pvp vs pvm it makes it worse for everyone.

[Wakizaka]

Summary: based on ALL parts of the toolset, crat is fairly evenly balanced. Losing a KEY part of that toolset (i.e. AS going from 11s recharge to 30+s recharge) will be a death knell and require a complete revamp. (there's nothing wrong with redoing gear).

How is it going to 30s ? If you're capping it at 1.5, and maintain the same setup, you'll be sitting with a ~15s recharge, not 30s.

The problem is that 1.6s recharge doesn't affect the profession who uses the pistol best at all (adv), while it affects the support profs by forcing them to revert to 2008 setups. It doesn't solve anything with AS - they gave a band-aid, then they ripped it off.

Ask a friendly Agent to buff you with TTS, nearly invalidating the increase in recharge time.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

How is it going to 30s ? If you're capping it at 1.5, and maintain the same setup, you'll be sitting with a ~15s recharge, not 30s.

ye, sorry pulled wrong number out.

Ask a friendly Agent to buff you with TTS, nearly invalidating the increase in recharge time.

ya 165 AS @ 4 hours is the obvious fix. I thought of this as well. Plus, after 18.7 I don't think there'll be any shortage of agents in PVP.

[JustinSane4]

Personally I'd like to see the Combat Remodulator improved. Switch the -750 duck/dodge/evade to -750 AAD so it works in PvM, either add a snare or increase the damage (or maybe add a strong AC debuff instead of either), give it burst and fling at crazy easy to cap cycles and you've got a legitimate alternative to AS for engie and crat. Shoot, it'd almost be worth considering for MP too. Conceptually, I just love the thing, in the same way I love Doc Chalices and SoZs. There should be more weapons that help you win fights in ways other than direct damage.

[Frokidd]

Funny I've never built a pvp toon based on AS and I sure am glad now. Pistol "Nerf" is hilarious to me. 11s, 15s, 30s recharge wtf difference does that make if deflect is implemented roflol. I am glad pistol was balanced with increased recharge, I will be happier still if deflect makes it to live. Say goodbye to your gank machine pvp toons and be prepared to actually fight for more than 10 seconds lol.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Personally I'd like to see the Combat Remodulator improved. Switch the -750 duck/dodge/evade to -750 AAD so it works in PvM, either add a snare or increase the damage (or maybe add a strong AC debuff instead of either), give it burst and fling at crazy easy to cap cycles and you've got a legitimate alternative to AS for engie and crat. Shoot, it'd almost be worth considering for MP too. Conceptually, I just love the thing, in the same way I love Doc Chalices and SoZs. There should be more weapons that help you win fights in ways other than direct damage.

I 100% agree on this.

I am using remod on one of my toons and it really is an interesting peripheral mechanic that can affect the outcome of an engagement.

You really need pets to make it work, and, quite frankly, crat seems to have the best suited toolset (reduce inits so much the target can't heal then let pets+nukes do the rest). On engi it's a bit more difficult, even though it's better supported. On engi the only real way to win fights with remod is to also have grenade perked, and with Rarm control you've got nearly the right grenade AR to nano drain some critical opponents.

Overall though, I really like the suggestion. The only problem is -750 dodge in PVP is OK, but -750 AAD would put a lot of targets in PVM into chain crit territory... however, with the towers HP adjustment of late, maybe that's not a bad thing...

[Louderer789]

Overall though, I really like the suggestion. The only problem is -750 dodge in PVP is OK, but -750 AAD would put a lot of targets in PVM into chain crit territory...

Wow sounds like it would make a remod engy/crat a valued, perhaps even highly sought after member of any and every PVM team. Better scrap this whole idea then

-750 AAD is obviously pretty balanced for the user alone, their pets will go on a crit frenzy but they will do negligible damage themselves. But I really have to ask, does allowing the entire team or raidforce to chain crit something make it easier than say, current crat init debuffs make it? Probably not. It makes it faster but not easier to tank/heal. A must for all bullet sponge encounters!

[xtremsniper]

I made sensible arguments that ALL PVPers have reliance on AS, and no PVPer will give it up, which only causes more difficulty playing, and doesn't make the game any more fun.

HOW does a enforcer have a reliance on AS?