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Thread: 18.7.0.23 Testlive notes.

  1. #1

    18.7.0.23 Testlive notes.

    Seems this was just a little fixer-uper for general issues.

    The worrying part is:

    "I have only a couple more updates planned, which will deal more directly with professions' tools."

    There's quite a lot I haven't even touched on yet, and in the grand scheme of things, 18.7 will still be considered a nerf to even us at this point. Hopefully we see some really great stuff happen in quick succession of the next patches, but if I said my attitude wasn't becoming more and more pessimistic, I'd be a liar.

    I haven't said much lately, because I know nothing more than anyone else reading the forum. I know nothing of any plans, and until I see things happen (or at least know the gist of what's going to happen), I'm hesitant to put together my usual lengthy, detailed, logical, and well balanced posts.

    One thing I should make perfectly clear. The list I have compiled summarizing 18.7 requested changes is not complete. The changes listed there, however, have been discussed, hashed out, and unanimously agreed upon. If anyone would like something added to that list or disagrees with anything, please bring forward any idea, and we will discuss it.

    This is more directed at Funcom, but if anything on that list is not possible / not going to happen, I would expect and appreciate a reason, since we have detailed everything quite clearly. We are not asking to be over powered by any means from anything on that list, and like I said, those requests are made, collectively, by decades of experience. We are asking for what we deserve to be properly functional, not for alpaca-shooting cannons to pop out of our heads that do 50K dps.

    On your marks... get set... Discuss!
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  2. #2
    i belive in you

  3. #3
    Any word on NT perk changes? Would be nice to get some adjustment to them. Just looking at nt prof tree of perks is just damn sad. Not even a single damage perk there except ai line and we all know how good that is... and cast times on the perks that we can do damage with.. or stupid regs like perkroot to get second perk rolling. WTB Agent type overhaul to them.
    [Robosapiens - 220eng] [Melchran - 220nt] [Mirkku - 207agent] [Litina -157doc] [Fatina -157fix] [Notatina - 116trader] [Lotina - 110nt] [Notina - 95enf] [Tupu - 95sold] [Hotina 76agent] [Clotclown - 43agent] [Melchram - 30agent] [Jytina 21trader]

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Puheenjohtaja View Post
    Any word on NT perk changes? Would be nice to get some adjustment to them. Just looking at nt prof tree of perks is just damn sad. Not even a single damage perk there except ai line and we all know how good that is... and cast times on the perks that we can do damage with.. or stupid regs like perkroot to get second perk rolling. WTB Agent type overhaul to them.
    Again, unfortunately, I have no idea what's planned. NT perks are definitely a basket case.

    I personally haven't gone through them myself with a fine-tooth comb yet to really think what should be done. From a general perspective, we have to depend a lot on nano regeneration from perks, which I absolutely hate. We should have more nano regeneration support from buffs to offset this, in my opinion.

    The problem is, if we take away the need for nano regeneration from perks, there's not really anything else we should bother with. Losing Nanobot Shielding and Tripples in 18.7 can more clearly define NT's as a defensive profession, so I think it would be reasonable to have some perk support for that too. Outside Nullity Sphere, our defense overall is pretty poor. It wouldn't be outside the realm of plausible for NT's to have a little baby heal of some kind, either. Modern day nano technology has a strong focus on regenerating bone fractures and other wounds rapidly, so it makes sense from that perspective. Obviously, it's not really our intended role to be any form of a healer, but it's mostly ironic that NT's of any profession can't heal if you look at today's nano technology. Again, trending to more of a defensive profession kind of warrants it, too.

    In terms of perk actions for PVP or just direct damage in general, I'm all ears. If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them and we can work them out. I'm far from a PVP expert, so I appreciate any input in regards to perk actions related to PVP.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  5. #5
    While nt's rely alot on nanoregen from perks it still doesn't help us survive that much better. With guard up we can pop:
    Tap Notum Source (400x7=2800) 4s cast 6min lock and weaker in rk.
    Nano Heal (4000) 4s cast 2min lock.
    Group perk Access Notum Source (2500) 2s cast 4min lock team nano perk.

    Thats 9300 nano with pretty long timer gained in rk and takes 10s to cast all not to mention that depending on perk setup you wont prolly even have all those perked.
    When nanobot guard is up and also while taking damage you're suppose to try maintain nano as long as possible and fire your own damage perks also so some speeding up these chains would be in order

    More suggestions please or well be left out of the 18.7 boat.
    [Robosapiens - 220eng] [Melchran - 220nt] [Mirkku - 207agent] [Litina -157doc] [Fatina -157fix] [Notatina - 116trader] [Lotina - 110nt] [Notina - 95enf] [Tupu - 95sold] [Hotina 76agent] [Clotclown - 43agent] [Melchram - 30agent] [Jytina 21trader]

  6. #6
    I was only told pretty much that not everything in my suggestion thread will happen, but some will. No specifics. Unless I have an idea of what's happening, it's pointless for me to throw ideas out that no one's listening to, or will just shoot down without a reason. I'm not taking a shot at you Puheenjohtaja, I'm just stating generally.

    Unfortunately, with neither results nor communication, I have nothing to go on. As far as I can see at this very moment, we've pitched out a bunch of great ideas, and have come to some great conclusions in previous threads. I've done everything I can think of to make it easy for Michi / whoever to find our conclusions and received an acknowledgement that he has read it, at least. I've asked multiple times for specific future changes / to directly assist with specific changes, and have received nothing in response. Outside of just composing a massive thread of everything else I would do to fix this profession in the hope that 1 or 2 ideas get pushed through, I really don't know what else I can do. Until I see results or hear from Michi on specifics, however, I personally consider that a waste of my time. This is all simply due to a lack of communication on Funcom's side. If I'm not going to be worked with directly to hash changes out, then we can just cross our fingers and hope that good things happen, I guess. Believe me when I say I have my fingers crossed that will be the case.

    Unfortunately, the future for NT's is still not clear to me, and I still doubt even Funcom has a clear definition. Let's start from square one, shall we?

    As a profession, what is the point of NT?

    Currently, we have:
    - Poor DPS (and before GIVA, borderline worst in the game)
    - Poor teamablity
    - Poor survival
    - Good toolset

    The reality is, we are a profession that struggles solo and no one wants in a team. We are losing our ability to use triples and therefore no longer excel in any particular area, while still failing at most. I would be willing to bet that most NT's started today are created with the intention of being deleted once their alt has reached 160 on Kite Hill. Over and over, the community has asked where the true NT glass cannon has been. We sort of had it with DM, but that was removed, as opposed to fixed. Now we have very little, but still more is being taken in 18.7.

    This is what we want, and correct me if you disagree...

    We want a savage nano casting profession. We want fast-paced, nail biting fights that basically boil down to the NT being able to kill the target before the target kills the NT.

    Maybe one day, that's what we'll get.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    We want a savage nano casting profession. We want fast-paced, nail biting fights that basically boil down to the NT being able to kill the target before the target kills the NT.
    Can you provide 5 mechanics changes that will make this happen for you?

    The change I want to see more than anything for NT's is for constant barrage to get nerfed. The amount it reduces NR by is a joke.

    I am pretty interested in Off/Def focus being changed to 2 minute lockout. That's pretty much a guarantee that NT's will be a more dynamic prof to play. The change to MC AR will do exactly the same paired with the faster execution time of Starfall. Seems like some of the things you're asking for are coming true, even if you aren't seeing them.

  8. #8
    I think there needs to be some separate pvm nukeline or it would imbalance pvp quite alot. Also without any nr debuff nt wont land perks on many pvp'ers and its useful debuff even in pvm instances.
    [Robosapiens - 220eng] [Melchran - 220nt] [Mirkku - 207agent] [Litina -157doc] [Fatina -157fix] [Notatina - 116trader] [Lotina - 110nt] [Notina - 95enf] [Tupu - 95sold] [Hotina 76agent] [Clotclown - 43agent] [Melchram - 30agent] [Jytina 21trader]

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Can you provide 5 mechanics changes that will make this happen for you?

    The change I want to see more than anything for NT's is for constant barrage to get nerfed. The amount it reduces NR by is a joke.

    I am pretty interested in Off/Def focus being changed to 2 minute lockout. That's pretty much a guarantee that NT's will be a more dynamic prof to play. The change to MC AR will do exactly the same paired with the faster execution time of Starfall. Seems like some of the things you're asking for are coming true, even if you aren't seeing them.
    My primary complaint and the #1 requirement for a glass cannon profession is obviously damage. NT's are easily left in the dust, at any level range. I primarily speak from PVM, and I know you usually speak from a PVP side, so we are automatically comparing two different situations. However, losing triples, and making doubles nearly useless, my statement is still accurate.

    In regards to Constant Barrage, no, absolutely not. If anything, it should be much stronger. I will not agree with weakening it in any way, and fight any change to do so until Notum Repulsor is removed from the game, or NT's get a perkline to sacrifice 8K weapon skills for 20k AAD. The later is obviously ridiculous, but from our standpoint, so is Notum Repulsor. Giving anyone access to a perkline to invalidate an NT's toolset completely was bad design.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  10. #10
    Hai! I've been silent lately because I mostly agree almost 100% with Vinkera and I hope he knows that by now
    So this post is mostly meant to say "Hi, I'm Dywas, a NT for the last ~12 years.. and I support Vinkera's vision for us!

    Taking away anything at all from NT's (as they are on test) at this moment may not be the greatest idea. We need to be given something that will make us useful in your average team.. damage seems the easiest way to go about this, even if it may bring QQ along with it from the usual people.

    PvP-wise I haven't had time at all to test things. Hope I do before 18.7 hits live.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post

    The change I want to see more than anything for NT's is for constant barrage to get nerfed. The amount it reduces NR by is a joke.
    No, no, and no. Reason: The very short nature of NT fights. A non healing, perkable profession, with 1 or 2 very short defense mechanisms, that relies on sheer damage to win fights before defense runs out cannot afford a drastic increase in fight durations without breaking the profession. Especially with cast capped/long recharge nukes.

    The only thing that needs changing for CB is that it should be removable out of fight with kits.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
    No, no, and no. Reason: The very short nature of NT fights. A non healing, perkable profession, with 1 or 2 very short defense mechanisms, that relies on sheer damage to win fights before defense runs out cannot afford a drastic increase in fight durations without breaking the profession. Especially with cast capped/long recharge nukes.
    Either that, or a massive MC boost along the lines of 500+. At least when looking at currently known mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
    The only thing that needs changing for CB is that it should be removable out of fight with kits.
    That's a good idea.
    keep smiling
    Najade s, Najengi s, Najngi s, Najmp s, Shadysannz, Toccata, Frobos, Chaodoc, Najcrat, Najtank
    sannz - ENL - NR01-GOLF-11
    a time of changing has begun; the leaves are fallen and undone; inside my spirit starts to run; and all my fears are overcome. - Chiasm, Rewind, 2005

  13. #13
    Here's a general thought of mine, and please discuss.

    Bugs aside, can anyone honestly tell me that DM was over powered in PVM, or even PVP? I have no experience using DM in PVP, but I can say that DM's damage range was pretty close to perfect for PVM.

    I'll be bluntly honest. For a supposed damage profession, and after all the begging we've done to improve GIVA, it's still not good enough, and overall a poor replacement for DM. Quite frankly, if GIVA doesn't hit for a minimum of about 18,000 damage in a setup sorta like mine, then it is still not good enough in my book.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  14. #14
    My personal record for DM was around 50k, new nuke is about half that. Nt was marginally worth playing before... It isnt so no more... unless NT weapon thingy makes a diffrence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    My personal record for DM was around 50k, new nuke is about half that. Nt was marginally worth playing before... It isnt so no more... unless NT weapon thingy makes a diffrence.
    Not enough to come to any noticeable difference. It has a pretty low damage range and is interfered with constant casting of nukes, so hits are very few and far between.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  16. #16
    We need some big nuke to make it worth playing. Also faster perks etc but dont know how long nt will be punished for the stupid dm sploit some people used for years..
    [Robosapiens - 220eng] [Melchran - 220nt] [Mirkku - 207agent] [Litina -157doc] [Fatina -157fix] [Notatina - 116trader] [Lotina - 110nt] [Notina - 95enf] [Tupu - 95sold] [Hotina 76agent] [Clotclown - 43agent] [Melchram - 30agent] [Jytina 21trader]

  17. #17
    Enfs have 50k taunt, give us a nuke to rival that damage-wise once in a while
    Last edited by nanoforcer; Apr 1st, 2015 at 20:00:52.
    Don't you just hate this kind of ppl
    http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/w...rouscranus.htm

  18. #18
    Yes, I believe we are one of the few "lucky" professions to be maliciously nerfed. The ironic part being the DM exploit was actually a really clever mechanic, just an over powered one.

    I had tossed around an idea in my head about it. Replacing Izgimmer's Last Word with a nuke that hit for 25% of a mob's current HP, but had a capped 20 second cast time, stunned the NT while casting (so they'd then be committed to it), taunted the mob ridiculously high, set HP and Nano to 1, had about a 2 day lockout, casted nano shutdown and offensive focus, and could only be used once per mob and actually buff its nano resist by 1,000 or something. Basically, suicide to cast, but it sure would pack a walup. Again, that was just a silly idea I cooked up when thinking about ILW and how much it sucks. I wouldn't expect that to ever happen, and if it did, I'm sure we'd hear a never ending torrent of complaints about how OP it is, even though it would likely be fatal to use against a low level mob :P

    But making some kind of nuke line that hit for percentage, as opposed to a fixed number is an interesting concept, and would possibly make our glass cannon vision more realistic and possible.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  19. #19
    I've had a few things on my mind that we should have, and rather than going into a long drawn-out post for each, I'll list them quick and dirty style.

    1... My frooblet NT's need a little love and a legit weapon. I would like them to get their own cyberdeck that at top level adds 30-40ish nanoskills and 2% damage. Also usable as a weapon with an Ok-ish damage range. (I hate seeing pillow-carrying NT's)

    2... We need nukes that are not level locked, and don't suck. Currently, that is pretty much just Izgimmer's Enveloping Flame. Almost every other Rubi-Ka nuke is complete garbage, with the exception of a few with added debuffs. I would like some scaling up options on these, and nuke OE. (reverse scaling if MC requirement is not met, as I've outlined in other posts.) Giving these line cooldown's would also be helpful if we need to keep them at a 4ish second lockout.

    3... Personal Notum Harvester needs to hit quicker than 15 seconds. We need a few stronger versions to help us rely less heavily on perks for nano regen.

    4... Dark Movement should add 160 run speed. Kiting is an NT thing, so not being able to self buff it is just silly.

    5... We should have stronger insta-cast AoE's that are quick, but smaller diameter than Kel's or VE.

    6... We should have an SL nuke for level 175. That was skipped over, and it's painful to use Touch of the Pyre until EUD.

    7... We should have buffs for damage type override for every type of damage.

    8... Izgimmer's Last Word and Izgimmer's Little Nuke should be re-created as GIVA style nukes (insta-cast, insta-recharge, 9 second line cooldown), and usable by froobs. Stronger versions should be available for paid. Minimum, 4 additional versions for levels starting from 50.

    9... Notum Overload should have it's +nano cost modifier removed.

    10... Beta / Alpha Extermination Symbiants should add % nano damage.

    11... Some kind of long line cooldown (I'm talking like 1 minute) %(4-5)HP damage nukeline should be added for paid. Usable on bosses / anything. Or, get creative with how that works. Scale %dmg down based on mob level.

    12... All Shadowlands nukes should cap at 2 second cast, 1 second recharge. All should have their nano cost reduced. All should have Nuke OE values added. A little up scaling damage would be nice. Lower level versions should be available to paid.

    13... NS / NS2 should be store buyable / rollable. I'm not giving up on this. Soldier's don't have to search long and hard or be super rich for TMS, we should be able to buy NS in a store, too. I'm not interested in this being a quest item. I'm also not interested in this being buyable from Greedy Shade. AO's economy is not my profession's problem.

    14... Kicker of Kell should be added to the tower shop, and if needed, adjusted.

    15... Additional lower versions of Izgimmer's Wealth should be added. Some usable by froobs.

    16... Additional lower versions of Nanobot Shelter should be added and froobable.

    17... Neuronal Stimulator and Enfraam's Cortex Accelerator should be usable by froobs. (MP's have Odin's Missing Eye, my froobs have nothing.)

    There's more I could come up with, but that's a good start.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  20. #20

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    I've had a few things on my mind that we should have, and rather than going into a long drawn-out post for each, I'll list them quick and dirty style.
    I do appreciate the feedback/suggestions/ideas, and I agree with many of them. The initial release of 18.7 may not bring NTs to where they could/should be, but it'll be an ongoing process of adjusting/padding/gutting/fixing across the board.

    RE: The lack of communication, I don't really have an excuse, other than there hasn't been enough time in the day, since all this 18.7 stuff has ramped up...though I do read relevant threads and PMs when they arrive and/or when I'm starting work on a related subject/profession. I hope to have more time to work directly with Professions, et al. after the initial 18.7 patch (and any needed fix patches soon after), but until then, I have been stretched rather thin.

    I am still here and listening, even if it doesn't always seem that way.
    Henry "Michizure" Senger
    Lead Designer
    ___________________________________
    Twitter - Welcome to Testlive - Customer Service

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