One of the elephants

[Nadiao]

It's because Support in AO terms means "Has healing other capability.", which is why its just Fixer, Doctor, Keeper, Martial Artist, Meta-Physicist, Adventurer, Trader as they can all heal their team mates to some degree. They didn't count FP Agents I because that's only in FP and not by default.

Or in short...

Support: Heal other people
Control: Pet classes & tradeskills
Artillery: Damage dealer with ranged
Infantry: Damage dealer with melee
Extermination: Damage dealer with nukes

Its semantics based on the language used, control isn't anything to do with crowd control really for example. So if you look at it like that it makes perfect sense?

Not saying loosening up the req's isn't a terrible idea but all I can see it doing is every prof will use exactly the same symbiants across the board and any symb that isn't the best in that slot will be completely pointless. I'm not sure going that way would be any better. So... in short you want 10x more worthless junk symbs looking for the few good ones or keep things spread around like it is now? :P

[Lheann]

That would require an astronomical amount of additional items to the database, as it would have to account for every single combination.

Actually there is a post from back then that detailed exactly how many it would take. It was north of 200K if I remember correctly. But the new version of the RDB is not limited to 2GB max size. So while it is a crazy amount of items it is not technically impossible anymore. Further a tool could be created to create all the RDB entries and validate them in a second pass approach.

I honestly would love to see AO go back to a system that Players build their gear to suit exactly their needs vice farming out symb sets and still being short on skills. My approach at least has the limit of 6 skills per implant slot and never more than 1 shiny in a slot. That is far less powerful than symbs that have all the shiny/bright/faded options.

Of course at some point the implant system could get overhauled so that implants act like containers and you can insert and remove (with proper skills) clusters. The bonuses coming from the installed clusters vice from the implant. This approach would be designed to eliminate the need to have every possible combo listed in the RDB. And yes this has been discussed with the devs several times over the years. It was just seen as to big of an overhaul. At this point with a the balance and engine upgrades a complete overhaul of the implant system does not seem so large.

Like many things in AO it is about scale of the solution, cost and manpower. All of those say we will never see such an overhaul. But adding in a 200-300K more implant combinations is within the reason by those measures considering much of the work can be automated.

[sannz]

Almost but not entirely. Not all nanos have capped range even with the deck range increaser and the hardcore cpu upgrade doesn't cap -%nanocost even with IOR.

It does if the players org has a large ql300 city with a Notum Silo. At 220, thats 7% btw. Advantage numbers are based on lvl200. 15+28+7=50. That's the cap for soli and opi with 5 over for troxes. As for nanomage, you can be sure that there is another 5% in that setup somewhere, be it an ACDC, symb, armor, or from research.

[DarkerThanBlack]

It does if the players org has a large ql300 city with a Notum Silo. At 220, thats 7% btw. Advantage numbers are based on lvl200. 15+28+7=50. That's the cap for soli and opi with 5 over for troxes. As for nanomage, you can be sure that there is another 5% in that setup somewhere, be it an ACDC, symb, armor, or from research.

Right forgot about city buildings. Regardless 15% from ncu alone isn't that much considering most run without ior/web most of the time.

[Litestrider]

Leave symbs for what they are.
Add new type of implant (QL1 to QL300) that takes 1 shiny, 2 bright and 3 faded clusters...

This sounds pretty fun.

I wonder if instead of just having tons and tons of clusters they could separate it out by "packages", have a cluster for all melee weapons, all ranged weapons, nano skills, nano support (cost, init, range, interruption), damage, and so on for closely-related stats. It could essentially combine the broadness of the symbiants with the pick-and-choose abilities of the implants. It might be easier too to cleverly balance this in such a way that there are serious tradeoffs.

The main problem I see with your suggestion is that I believe they would still have to add every single implant to the database. If you do 3x3 clusters or even 1 shiny 2 bright 3 faded, that's a ridiculous number of items, even if space is a non-issue. Even the standard implant system adds a ton of clutter, and this would multiply it several times over. Database search time and even filesize could become a real concern with how many items this added.

If they did it by "groups", not profession groups which are silly, but skill groups that are at least somewhat logical, they could achieve a very similar effect with far fewer items required.

This system could be put in place by having you "clean" symbiants like you do implants, that would give the tradeskillers some more stuff to do. And partially-filled symbs could have a lower level requirement and fewer different stats (assuming they wanted to put in the effort to carefully balance this!) which could bridge the gap between the laser-focus and high twinkability of implants, and the broad skillbase of symbiants.

Changing implants to work like containers would of course be an ideal solution, but we don't have any real idea how the inventory system works, except that it's very temperamental, so it's really hard to say if this is even realistic, let alone how much work it would take.

[wyldebeast]

Right forgot about city buildings. Regardless 15% from ncu alone isn't that much considering most run without ior/web most of the time.

In my doc setup I have:
197 nano range - 32 from symbs
73% nano cost reduction - 17% from symbs

and these numbers are unbuffed. Needless to say, I'd swap to weapon buffing symbs over "caster" symbs in a heartbeat.

[Raelil]

Just buff exterm symbs and its all good.
Currently they're just not offering anything to the table, other than to those being locked into them solely.

[lufa1982]

It's because Support in AO terms means "Has healing other capability.", which is why its just Fixer, Doctor, Keeper, , , , as they can all heal their team mates to some degree. They didn't count FP Agents I because that's only in FP and not by default.

Yeah, except - surprise, Enforcers and Engineers can also heal other people. So that's not it, either.

Control: Pet classes & tradeskills

Come on, that doesn't make any sense at all. Everyone can have tradeskills, last time I checked.

Not saying loosening up the req's isn't a terrible idea but all I can see it doing is every prof will use exactly the same symbiants across the board and any symb that isn't the best in that slot will be completely pointless. I'm not sure going that way would be any better. So... in short you want 10x more worthless junk symbs looking for the few good ones or keep things spread around like it is now? :P

Why not? I want a system that's coherent and consistent. With as much effort as it takes to farm and equip a set of q300 symbs, its really inexcusable to use a system of "profession tags" that were randomly assigned 12 years ago, by the people who put about 0,0005 of logical thought into the whole thing.

[wyldebeast]

Yeah, except - surprise, Enforcers and Engineers can also heal other people. So that's not it, either.

Well maybe symbs were made before perks or maybe the SL devs made the symbs based on how the professions were at the time, and not how they might be in the future.

Come on, that doesn't make any sense at all. Everyone can have tradeskills, last time I checked.

Maybe Nadiao was wrong on including tradeskills and control is only about pet classes. (I can imagine that's where he started but didn't know traders do in fact have pets, through the insanely ****ty charms. This then resulted in wrongly adding tradeskills.)

Nadiao's breakdown on the symb distribution make perfect sense.

[Scottik]

I don't see any game-breaking issue with unlocking symbiants to all profs except the fact some symbs would instantly become irrelevant. Speaking of symbs becoming irrelevant I think Michi should reconsider some of the changes made to ado brains, they're just too powerful on test. There's gonna be no reason to use anything else apart for alpha brain. Imo it would be good idea to remove NR from all of them, so there would be some benefit to wearing standard brain symbs. There'd also be clear distinction between them as ado brain would become more suitable for PvM use (or for ppl that want max AR) and standard symbs for PvP/Nr oriented builds. In other words there shouldn't be single item that has it all.

[Litestrider]

Not saying loosening up the req's isn't a terrible idea but all I can see it doing is every prof will use exactly the same symbiants across the board and any symb that isn't the best in that slot will be completely pointless. I'm not sure going that way would be any better. So... in short you want 10x more worthless junk symbs looking for the few good ones or keep things spread around like it is now? :P

I believe you aren't looking far enough ahead here.

There may be some "best in slot" symbiants right now, likely controls if so because those are ridiculous, but the only thing keeping them from being used universally is the profession restrictions. This is completely artificial, it's just a band-aid that avoids the actual problem rather than solving it. Those professions without access are still getting screwed over, they just don't have the option not to be. If restrictions were lifted completely, then these problem-symbiants could be easily identified and fixed, likely by boosting the other symbiants in order to cover their gaping flaws and fill an actual niche other than "be terrible".

But even before we get that far, what makes you think there are even very many "best in slot" symbiants out there? The things that a soldier, keeper, fixer, doctor, nanotechnician and engineer want out of any given symbiant vary wildly, soldiers aren't going to go after melee or nano symbiants, and I don't think there would be many keepers going nuts for a symbiant with extra assault rifle and grenade on it.

[DarkerThanBlack]

In my doc setup I have:
197 nano range - 32 from symbs
73% nano cost reduction - 17% from symbs

and these numbers are unbuffed. Needless to say, I'd swap to weapon buffing symbs over "caster" symbs in a heartbeat.

What's your point, other than being just another bad weapon focused doc.

[wyldebeast]

What's your point, other than being just another bad weapon focused doc.

I was simply pointing out that you were wrong on assuming the 15% NCR on hardcore compiler wasn't enough to make this stat negligible on "caster symbs." Even without symbs reaching well above the cap is easily done using NCUs. Preferring to use items that improve skills without a cap over using items that improve skills that are capped without them doesn't make me "another bad weapon focused doc" it just makes me get more from those slots, regardless of my playstyle (which, to your information, actually is a support/healer style)

[Caloss2]

I think it's a good idea to unlock symbs in this fashion, AO's original implants are whatever you want whatever your breed/class Guate tried to go in the opposite direction with symbs; bump for this idea.

[Nadiao]

Yeah, except - surprise, Enforcers and Engineers can also heal other people. So that's not it, either.

Come on, that doesn't make any sense at all. Everyone can have tradeskills, last time I checked.

Why not? I want a system that's coherent and consistent. With as much effort as it takes to farm and equip a set of q300 symbs, its really inexcusable to use a system of "profession tags" that were randomly assigned 12 years ago, by the people who put about 0,0005 of logical thought into the whole thing.

Yes as Wyldebeast said and something I should of probably indicated it is going by the nanos the professions had available at the time, not the perks.

And I still think the tradeskill part is accurate, look at the Control symbiants the majority of tradeskill buffs are there and you can bet its for the Engineers and Traders. Sure if you want to be literal everyone can IP tradeskills but noone can buff them like those two classes can and I'm pretty sure noone actually heavily IP's their tradeskills like those professions do. True Nano-technicians sometimes max nano programming and the odd doctor does Pharma-tech, perhaps even Bureaucrats/Enforcers will have Psychology but that's one skill out of many.

The symbiant breakdown as I mentioned based on the nanos available works out pretty darn well, I don't expect everyone to agree with it 100% but hey I'm sure it made sense back then.

But even before we get that far, what makes you think there are even very many "best in slot" symbiants out there? The things that a soldier, keeper, fixer, doctor, nanotechnician and engineer want out of any given symbiant vary wildly, soldiers aren't going to go after melee or nano symbiants, and I don't think there would be many keepers going nuts for a symbiant with extra assault rifle and grenade on it.

You can check this out via a handy symbiant comparison tool here: http://kennyboy.org/ao/

Don't get me wrong, I admit not every slot has a clear winner, but here are a few of the most clear choices:

Control Brain: Everyone not using Syndicate Brain
Control Ear: Everyone (It literally has every possible stat.)
Infantry Left Arm: Everyone (Almost everything bar Nano cost modifier, which as this thread indicates isn't needed anyway.)

Or for some more variable spots?

Artillery Eye/Right Arm/Right Hand/Right Wrist: Most ranged
Infantry Right Arm/Right Hand: Most melee

Etc, have a look some symbiants would make anyone jelly of what some of the other professions have available, you could argue all those need to be fixed but as has been mentioned before they have neither the time nor inclination to go through and fix every single symbiant in the database.

That said if this change DOES go live without radical symbiant updates with it please let me know in advance so I can buy up all the most OP symbiants cheap for resale. /me rubs hands together with glee

[Litestrider]

Etc, have a look some symbiants would make anyone jelly of what some of the other professions have available, you could argue all those need to be fixed but as has been mentioned before they have neither the time nor inclination to go through and fix every single symbiant in the database.

I don't know, I would think that if they're going through and fixing every single symbiant in the database, then they would probably have the time and/or inclination to go through and fix every single symbiant in the database.

Most or all of the suggestions in this thread would be largely copy/paste work, as would adding missing stats to less-used symbiants. The bulk of the work would simply be figuring out what to add, and what to remove if anything. If they announced they were going to change symbiants you know we'd have a huge fist-fight thread about how it "ruins the game" and "AO is dead", and they could use that to easily identify most of the problem areas right off the bat with minimal work on their part.

[lufa1982]

I believe you aren't looking far enough ahead here.

There may be some "best in slot" symbiants right now, likely controls if so because those are ridiculous, but the only thing keeping them from being used universally is the profession restrictions. This is completely artificial, it's just a band-aid that avoids the actual problem rather than solving it. Those professions without access are still getting screwed over, they just don't have the option not to be. If restrictions were lifted completely, then these problem-symbiants could be easily identified and fixed, likely by boosting the other symbiants in order to cover their gaping flaws and fill an actual niche other than "be terrible".

But even before we get that far, what makes you think there are even very many "best in slot" symbiants out there? The things that a soldier, keeper, fixer, doctor, nanotechnician and engineer want out of any given symbiant vary wildly, soldiers aren't going to go after melee or nano symbiants, and I don't think there would be many keepers going nuts for a symbiant with extra assault rifle and grenade on it.

Yup, that's exactly the way I see it as well. Worst case scenario, unlocking everything would help identify the unbalanced symbs, hell of a lot better than any forum debate ever will.

Another interesting idea, is to make unlocked versions have higher reqs. So, lets say any alpha symbiant can be right clicked into unclocked version, but the reqs increase significantly. Its about damn time All those twinking items get put to use for endgame characters. Apart from alpha brains on Troxes, q300 symbs have been equipable since like 2008 , and since that time. the amount of ability/treatment buffage in the game has dramatically increased.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Yup, that's exactly the way I see it as well. Worst case scenario, unlocking everything would help identify the unbalanced symbs, hell of a lot better than any forum debate ever will.

Another interesting idea, is to make unlocked versions have higher reqs. So, lets say any alpha symbiant can be right clicked into unclocked version, but the reqs increase significantly. Its about damn time All those twinking items get put to use for endgame characters. Apart from alpha brains on Troxes, q300 symbs have been equipable since like 2008 , and since that time. the amount of ability/treatment buffage in the game has dramatically increased.

OK.. sounds cool but is actually a lot of work for the dev.

I mean, sure, lets do it for alpha symbs but why not for every symb right?

I like the idea in general, but it would be a crapload of work. It's a lot easier to just remove the prof locks without the added boost to reqs.

Also, you couldn't really expect a req 5% higher than current.

1276 +5% = 1340

2088 +5% = 2192 <-- omg wtf.


But just think about how many numbers that is in the database to go in and update.... it would never happen despite it being a kinda cool idea.

[Wakizaka]

Also, you couldn't really expect a req 5% higher than current.

1276 +5% = 1340

2088 +5% = 2192 <-- omg wtf.

Why not? We already have something like that.

• Strength >= 1400
• Agility>= 1400
• Sense >= 1400
• Treatment >= 2188

[lufa1982]

OK.. sounds cool but is actually a lot of work for the dev.

I mean, sure, lets do it for alpha symbs but why not for every symb right?

I like the idea in general, but it would be a crapload of work. It's a lot easier to just remove the prof locks without the added boost to reqs.

Also, you couldn't really expect a req 5% higher than current.

1276 +5% = 1340

2088 +5% = 2192 <-- omg wtf.


But just think about how many numbers that is in the database to go in and update.... it would never happen despite it being a kinda cool idea.

I think they've said updating alpha symbs is a lot easier than updating the old symbs, so changing everything is out of the question. Besides, symbs aren't really that much of a problem at lower levels. At tl5 and below custom implants are often a real alternative, whereas at the endgame they're just far too limiting.

When it comes to the reqs, man, the other day I did full set of alpha symbs, without ever having Treatment Transfer. That's how easy it is nowadays.