Since the Troa'ler nerf

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The Troa'ler nerf is big news.

I refuse to complain about it, despite many of my toons' dependency on it.

Instead, I'd like to point out that along with this change perhaps this is a valuable time to review some class specific weapons/weapon lines that may provide a broader level of immersion for the classes who will be hampered by this change.

Lets have a look at some prof specific weapons/weapon lines that could be adjusted to promote better prof identity and immersion.



FIRST

Grenade for engi. Takun would be pleased I think.

Make a secondary grenade skill (in the way that sneak attack opens backstab), but instead, make it a passive proc, that when the skill to activate it is sufficient, it becomes active immediately and irrevocably (say, 400 skill)

The proc ONLY activates if the user is operating a grenade weapon.

Proc is offensive (20% on landed hit)
Shellshock: -200 AAD, -200AAO -1000RS, -20% crit resist on target at self level 200 (220AAO/AAD/1100RS/-22 crit resist at 220) 5 second duration

That's it. Engi's are sorted and with this one change, Engi's will be competitive in PVP with grenade Weapon lines with this

SECOND:

Grenade line needs to be bigger, bolder, check much lower (i.e. some of it needs to land in PVP)
Boost static modifiers to total: 20% crit, 6% all reflects (would demolition experts really not protect themselves?)

Thermal Primer: check is good, add a big dot to this that ticks 10x every 3 seconds so it can be up full time, change activation to 1 second

Install Explosive device: check is good, make activation time shorter (3s) and the delay shorter

Suppressive Primer: check is good, put the dot back on this that ticks 10x every 3 seconds so it can also be up full time in combat - make the dot tick on BOTH health and nano, and not as strong/damaging as thermal primer, activation 1 second

Install notum depletion device: check is good, everything is good except the activation (3s)

Imo this would sort out Engi's nicely.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Next, Crats.

Now crats offense in PVP will be significantly reduced with the troaler change (in a standard PVP setup, crats will only be able to get a 15s AS), and quite frankly, with almost zero other choices for weapons, crats really are nerfed to hell in 18.7

Crat obvious weaponlines ARE pistols:

Notably, crats have decent pistol choices from TL3 through to TL7 with Pistol of the revoked, Dark pistol of the revoked, Special Edition Kyr'ozch Pistol, and Dreadloch Balanced Freedom Arms.

It stands to reason, then, that if crats are getting a nerfbat to their main hand pistol, that we ought to get creative to figure out what pistols crats MIGHT be using.

How about an AMEP-esque Pistol meant to impart Cratty like properties?

Like this:

Enhanced Combat Tech Pistol of Control

Use: Bureacrat

Pistol: 2250
Burst: 1350
Psychology: 2250

260-500 (400)
1.2
1.2
Burst cycle 2400
MR 1450

Attack skills: 100% Pistol, 25% Psychology

modifiers:
300 max health
5% nano damage
10% damage to Pet (permanent)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Doc's I think are fine offensively with dot damage/changes to Malp and the doctor specific pistols to a world of good for docs who want to boost PVM capability and PVP capability without reliance on AS.

Overall - no significant change to weapons/weaponlines are needed (imo).

[lufa1982]

Grenade needs DB1 "earthquake' effect as a special attack.

Done and done.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

umm, F*ck yes. Linked to grenade as a "special skill" or something?

Any offer on the mechanics/checks/ etc?

I'd be more than happy with a grenade vs 50% duck explosive doing AOE 5m damage 20s recharge that does 4400-8800 melee damage at 220

[lufa1982]

Don't know really. I'm not a fan of procs though since it would make weapon AR impossible to balance. If AR is high enough to have at least a chance to land on evaders, then proc will be chained on everybody else, and if it can't land on evaders then its useless vs. half the population.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Don't know really. I'm not a fan of procs though since it would make weapon AR impossible to balance. If AR is high enough to have at least a chance to land on evaders, then proc will be chained on everybody else, and if it can't land on evaders then its useless vs. half the population.

Aha.

Well you'll note that the perks on Demolitions are significantly varied.

The two primers have 100% grenade vs 15% check - I'll just say that likely both of these will land on everyone with the possible exception where crat is in DTB or fixer is in ES.

No matter - they are on 15s CD's on fail.

Both of those perks do nothing, really, on live. My suggestion, though, is to give one ahealthy dot and the other reasonable nano/health dot BOTH of which you should be able to keep running on a target permanently.

The reasoning for this is simple:

In PVM, grenade engi's have always suffered: not enough normal hits, not enough fling hits, no burst, no FA, no AS (I run/spam AS in PVM to utilize as much of my toolset as I can)

That means they are relegated to be content with a maximum possible 46 hits/minute with capped fling - the ONLY possible saving grace is that fling crits, and grenade weapons have traditionally had reasonably high crit/max damage.

Grenade perks on the other hand, have basically, without being facetious, can not EVER get perk damage from their main weapon line in raids/missions because normal mobs are DEAD by the time they get their first primer on them... btw, if you ever want to feel useless, try doing an APF as a grenade engi.

So, that brings us to static modifiers: firstly, 20% crit. Obviously, if you can't land a perk you might as well get something out of the line - so I've added 20% crit as a base bonus, this will mean as long as you press Q you can potentially (20% of the time) see some benefit of spending 10 perks in that line. As well! because engies are incredibly proc reliant (notably congenial encasement, which is a AAO proc), they need a way to regulate that defence, so I've added 13%/2 = 6% static bonus to supplement their lower chance to proc with out duel wield and missing a key special that will fire procs (AS).

Now, in PVP, The grenade proc I've suggested won't do a LOT, but it'll do a bit. Firstly, the proc chance is very high so you could assume that the proc will almost always be up if you're getting regular hits on your target, that said, the proc won't really affect the target's capability to inflict damage on the engi - -220 AAO is nothing compared to the massive gulf in defences engies suffer compared to the AR of most other profs. But it will help in mass PVP where the target is fighting a team mate. Secondly, the -220 AAD won't really do a lot of good either vs most profs, BUT, it could make MA/advy/shade/keeper perkable once their primary defences have worn out, which should grant the engi a chance to make a kill.

Will it be enough? I honestly doubt it - I honestly doubt that even with these changes, a PVP engi would choose grenade.

But, it'll do two things, one, it'll boost grenade capability, and two, it'll make engies a more formidable teammate via indirectly making teammates stronger (notably, engi blockers were nerfed pretty hard for teammates, so I'd personally like to see a small boost elsewhere in the toolset to make up for that... I'm not overly attached to this idea, so if anyone has better I'm all ears!).

[JustinSane4]

Uh... 20% crit and 6% reflect are insane mods. Wouldn't every single engineer, regardless of weapon type, perk the line for that? And wouldn't that be a bit OP with better weapons than grenade launchers? Seems like a better idea to add those as mods to Sloth of the Xan or something.

Re: Crats, it has never made sense to me that Commanding Presence does not cast on all pets the way that Motivational Speech auras do. The Troa'Ler nerf might be a good point to fix that. It would increase Crat DPM in PvM by 6k or so, but let's be honest, as crazy as Crat DPM is, was, and will be, what's another 6k DPM?

On a similar note, I think engineer reflect and possibly spec blocker auras should cast on pets as well as on team. From an RP standpoint it doesn't make sense they can shield team mates but not pets, and from a balance standpoint it isn't logical that engie pets survive better on RK (where all PvP happens) than in SL. The only thing making SL reflect auras cast on all pets would change balance wise is engineer solo PvM in SL would improve, and that seems like a good thing. The spec blockers is dicier, but Michizure seems to be moving engineers in the direction of helping engineers keep their pets alive, and it makes absolutely perfect sense from an RP/internal game logic standpoint. Engineers are losing a bit of PvP utility due to the team spec block nerf anyway.

One more related idea: Change Dreadloch Combat Remodulator from -750 evade/duck/dodge to -750 AAD (so that the debuff works in PvM, not just PvP), add burst and flingshot at crazy fast cycles so it's easy to cap and raise the damage from 25/50(20) to 100/100(100), and tradeskillers now have an interesting, viable weapon for both PvP and PvM. Plus, it helps pet classes be pet classes.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I was thinking along the same lines last night, regarding the remodulator.

TBH, there are problems with the remodulator that make it a bit clumsy and I thought it would be a more elegant solution to try to flesh out grenade, which on it's own suffers pretty badly in a number of areas (weapon lines, specials, AR/checks, perks, perk range...)

The main problems I see with remodulator are:

1. no specials
2. VERY low damage
3. difficult to balance

That's not to say it's impossible to make them usable, and I think you're on the right track. 100-100(100) is still a pretty shiesty weapon imo, and while it MIGHT work OK for engi's who have a pretty solid DD mechanism in pets, it won't work very well for traders/crats.

So... that got me thinking... what about a remodulator tweak:

ONE HANDED!

Then you could justify the loss of damage a bit easier with a decent mainhand weap that would let you use some specials and get at least a moderate amount of damage from perks.

How about 100-100(100)
LH only
and maybe ramp the -200AAD one up to like -350

Paired with a new diamondine kick pistol/ AMEP that would be pretty reasonable and give engie's some different approaches to doing damage in PVP.

[Baby]

No, Crats shouldn't get DtP at all. The reason MPs got it is because with an actual weapon equipped we lack def like mad. Crats have tons of def and CC on top, so here's a big no for this.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

No, Crats shouldn't get DtP at all. The reason MPs got it is because with an actual weapon equipped we lack def like mad. Crats have tons of def and CC on top, so here's a big no for this.

Have anything productive to add?

[JustinSane4]

I think perhaps any buffs Crats get should be narrowly PvP focused. They are already PvM demigods. %nanodamage modifier is, if anything, more useful in PvM, so I'm not sure that's a great idea for a weapon mod.

[Baby]

I would have to agree with Justin. I think if Crats get a modifier on that weap it should be PvP related.
But afterall, let's take a quick look at Crats in PvP and what they can do:

Snare/Root
Charm
Calm
Fear
Do Dmg
And with 18.7 they even get their own "UBT"

So my question would be: Do they really need some proc? What could it possibly be? I think the only thing left is stun, and we had that already. Maybe crats are good as they are atm, and before we think about giving them some random bonus on the weap, we should rather leave that option open until we see the whole picture of 18.7, and can make an actual reasonable suggestion.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I didn't suggest a proc for crats.

I'm afraid I didn't write clearly enough, but the ideas are separated by post. OP is original idea + idea for engi. The SECOND post is the idea for crats.

There's been some discussion that there may be some movement away from AS in PVP. I've been trying to find some possible ideas that would give crats a reason to NOT use AS in PVP.

In case you haven't tested the Troa'ler on 18.7 the recharge is 1.5, that means crats with lower IP base for AS will have a very hard time capping recharge.

In case you don't understand the implications of this, I'll jut say that it will likely be a significant deterent for crats to use this weapon in PVP - HOWEVER, in light that there IS nothing better, it qualifies as a big effin nerf out of left field.

Are you following me? Henceforth, under the broadly agreed position that crats are NERF in 18.7, I'm trying to come up with some ideas for weapons that will bring them back to competitive level.

There is only 1 plausible method to remove AS from a PVP toolset. That method is to provide TOOLS and Weapons with appropriate AR checks that allow a PVPer to utilize his toolset vs opponents that he otherwise could not do damage against WITHOUT AS.

I hope that's clear. Put it this way. If a crat meets a fixer what do you think he's going to do? Malaise and nuke him to death? no... hell no. That's why crats need AS. So, if you want to nerf the F*ck out of AS, then there's got to be something else in store or crats are going to basically drop off the ladder in kill capability.

[Litestrider]

...crats are going to basically drop off the ladder in kill capability.

I think this is an important concern to address. Do we really want everyone to have significant kill capability? I know there's another thread with about 6 pages of whining that doctors should be able to kill every other prof solo, and I would expect similar complaining from any other profession, but I think we should assess whether or not every profession should be able to farm solo kills vs every other profession. Think about the parallel in PvM, not every profession can solo really hard content, in fact most of them can't. However those very professions who can't solo are often extremely useful to a team because of their toolsets. Setting out to make all content soloable by everybody just strikes me as shooting yourself in the foot, because it would either have to be as easy and bland as newbie island, or as toothless as the nascence key quest.

Getting back to PvP, the goal of having every profession able to kill everyone seems like a ridiculous balancing act that borders on the impossible, and which would result in an overall bland, unsatisfying environment wherein one profession will almost always rise to the top as "best" since they all have the same goal. Contrast it with an environment where "kill capability" isn't the prime concern, and a much more floral and varied system can be constructed with relative ease, where bureaucrat may not get many kills, but they can pin down and disable a target while a shade or whatever swoops in and murders them. A prerequisite to this system may be the introduction of an "assists" score or some other non-kill metric by which to measure epeen.

Just trying to provide food for thought. The suggestions sound like a good start to me. If they aren't going to relax the IP restrictions on traders then I think making IP tradeoffs more real for engineers is a good thing. The troa'ler being widely available and powerful is definitely creating a situation similar to what I described, so I'd love to see more weapon-specific options thrown out there. The only thing that would really rub me the wrong way is specific profession restrictions. If I decide to make, say, a grenade keeper, then I don't see why I shouldn't get access to the grenade specials as well. It's unlikely anybody's going to become a killing machine without true support for their weapon, but the weapon can sometimes still be fun regardless unless it's hamstrung by artificial profession-restricted mechanics.

[DarkerThanBlack]

There is only 1 plausible method to remove AS from a PVP toolset. That method is to provide TOOLS and Weapons with appropriate AR checks that allow a PVPer to utilize his toolset vs opponents that he otherwise could not do damage against WITHOUT AS.

I hope that's clear. Put it this way. If a crat meets a fixer what do you think he's going to do? Malaise and nuke him to death? no... hell no. That's why crats need AS. So, if you want to nerf the F*ck out of AS, then there's got to be something else in store or crats are going to basically drop off the ladder in kill capability.

This only makes sense when you're operating under two wrong presumptions: first one being that every profession should be able to solo kill every other profession which is of course impossible when you have fourteen different professions and a million different factors between them. The second one is balancing strictly through 1v1 situations.

The problem with AO, and it's community, is that there's very little emphasis on team play in pvp anymore thanks to long duration buffs and powerful weapons being handed to literally every profession over the years. In fact, contrary to the rest of mmorpg culture where people are happy to team up for better pvp results, in AO the most mention team pvp gets is when players are complaining about it like it's a bad thing to the very sad point that having a single team formed on the battlestation is considered zerging.

AO is an mmorpg not a generic fps, and every profession should have it's strengths and it's weaknesses and the void caused by a weakness should only be filled by teaming up with other professions. That's how you create BALANCE and not by giving every profession the ability to do everything. Crats have a very versatile toolset as is, even if their weapon damage was reduced to nothing they would still be a very viable pvp profession. They are (or well, should be) a support profession that specializes in boosting team effectiveness with powerful auras and crowd control which we can all agree when I say they do better than any other profession.

[Baby]

Okay first things first: The Troa'Ler on Live has a recharge of 1.5 too.

I completely understood that if AS falls off for crats, there needs to be some sort of "replacement" to get the opponent down. That is why I said proc, because what else would make up for it than a proc? You can't just add 1k AAO so Crats can hit an evade prof without AS.

[DarkerThanBlack]

I completely understood that if AS falls off for crats, there needs to be some sort of "replacement" to get the opponent down..

I would very much like to hear one logical reason why crats should have the power to solo kill evade professions.

[Auct]

I would very much like to hear one logical reason why crats should have the power to solo kill evade professions.

I'm no PvPer, but I thought the ideal was that any profession should have the potential to kill any other, and the winner is decided by the skill of the player (either skill in fighting or skill in twinking).

Otherwise it's like Rock-Paper-Scissor but you only ever get to pick one.

[DarkerThanBlack]

I'm no PvPer, but I thought the ideal was that any profession should have the potential to kill any other, and the winner is decided by the skill of the player (either skill in fighting or skill in twinking).

Otherwise it's like Rock-Paper-Scissor but you only ever get to pick one.

Read my longer post only a few posts up.