Cybernetic samurai (Enforcers?)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'll admit that I'm not entirely acquainted with all the changes in 18.7.0.20 because there area fair number of them.

Overall, so far, great job.

But there seems to be some stuff that could use a bit of fleshing out.

So: Keepers vs Enforcers regarding melee energy

Enforcers have 5 buffs for melee energy.

Keepers get a perkline for melee energy.

Infantry brain doesn't have melee energy on it. Edit: (it does)




From what I've heard in testlive, no keepers are considering switching to melee energy (yet).

In my humble opinion - (and please feel free to point out where I've gone off track here) - here is what I think.

Based on Michi's post here: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...=1#post6203740

I spent about a half-day trying to condense or reduce the size of certain perklines, but to little avail. I think the solution will be deprecating perklines, and adding new ones. This is sadly a rather unnatural thing for our tools to do, and not something that's the easiest to do.

The first thing that needs to be done is delete/remove cybernetic samurai from keeper "professional" perks.

Then next thing to do (imo) is redesign the melee energy line from the bottom up and place it in the "group" perks.

I won't make any suggestions regarding the actual perks, except that the perks need to be melee energy vs 100% skill def check, or keeper alpha's will just blow everyone away paired with the HM line. Enforcers have no shortage of AAO so I doubt it will be problematic for them either.

Lastly, I don't think it would be that much of a stretch to put melee energy into support brains as well as infantry, since, quite frankly, doctors *could* use melee energy, and keeper's often need to use support brains as well. I honestly don't think there's many reasons not to do this.

[Emma]

If you think Melee Energy perks should be in the group perk lines so that Keepers and Enforcers can perk the line if they want to that is fine with me.

However, do not take the damage boost in the Samurai perkline away from Keepers. We already lost damage buffs with all the keeper nano re-arrangements.

Have you checked the Infantry brain from the Test-live items database?

Emma

[McKnuckleSamwich]

pardon me, the infantry brain does have melee energy. Thanks for the correction.

[Wakizaka]

I dislike the idea of a group perk line because that means balancing it around multiple professions and never actually fixing one or more of them.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I dislike the idea of a group perk line because that means balancing it around multiple professions and never actually fixing one or more of them.

Dislike I can live with. Do you have any actual argument against it though, given that enforcers are the "melee specialists"?

Really, what you're saying here without actually saying it is that either enforcers shouldn't have a melee energy line OR there should be two melee energy lines, and neither of those are really acceptable solutions.

[Wakizaka]

Really, what you're saying here without actually saying it is that either enforcers shouldn't have a melee energy line OR there should be two melee energy lines, and neither of those are really acceptable solutions.

And why is having two different lines, one for each profession not acceptable ?
It is far simpler to give Enforcers their own line, balanced around them and their stats, versus having another line like Reaver where we cannot really change it for the better for fear that Enforcers would just get something more powerful than the currently broken 1he/1hb alpha.

[Dysfunction]

The non-xan symbiants aren't really adjustable, but it's more realistic to get it added into alpha symbol and maybe the betas, if it's only doable in the alphas atrox would be far behind since support alpha brain isn't possible still. But I would like to see alpha support brain possible for Trox and melee energy added to support alpha brain for sure!

[McKnuckleSamwich]

And why is having two different lines, one for each profession not acceptable ?
It is far simpler to give Enforcers their own line, balanced around them and their stats, versus having another line like Reaver where we cannot really change it for the better for fear that Enforcers would just get something more powerful than the currently broken 1he/1hb alpha.

oooh come on.

First of all, Precedense - the only perkline in game where there is any difference between classes is 1HB for MP and 1HB for enf, but honestly, MP's and enfs are a bloody world apart.

What do you REALLY think the difference is between enf and keeper?

Lets say, for a moment that keeper def and enf def are roughly comparable.
Lets now look at IP templates.. ok, about the same.
Lets look at ME in research (no idea and don't want to look it up, but I'm sure you can assign the same skill so they both have approximately the same skill)

Finally, lets look at peripheral AR.

enforcer has slightly less AAO available in armour, but more AAO availalble in buffs (top challenger I think gives 250AAO)
keeper has slightly more AAO available in armour (50 in head vs 50 AAD in ofab head for enf which is usually what they use), more AAO available in ambient buffs (120 in immi)

So roughly speaking, assuming similar setups and similar IP templates and similar research... and lets say keeper gets matched skill on keeper chest for 85 skill

then static AR for keeper is 50+120+85 = 255 more than enf

enf has buffed AR for 301 more AR

And then you got 400 more available AAO in procs which may or may not fire for enf

And for keeper you got 216 AAO available in insight.

So, overall: keeper got 255+216 in perks +any breed perks ~470 ish
enf got 301 in buffs +400 in procs which is likely EITHER +250 or +150 but not both + any breed perks ~450-550ish

Keeper has - debuffs though, but possibly more importantly, keeper never has to rebuff challenger to maintain the AR boost which is much better in longer fights.


I dunno man, I don't feel like keeper and enf are so different that you'd need to redesign the line for either prof. TBH, they are about as close as you can get while being dependent on completely different mechanics.

The other thing that I'll say here is that keeper has the capability to use ME as a swap weapon now with a lot more natural buffs for it which means lower IP expenditures which means SA/AS swaps... Enf has different strengths...

Finally, if you're scared about enf's getting something "more" powerful... dude, you got to try out keeper on test. As a prof, you should be there, but some guys are playing keeper very well and they are NOT a weak prof at all right now, imo, enf will put up a god fight 1 vs 1 against keeper but with ward+immi, you gunna limit a lot of proc chances and add clarion call and other breed boosts... imo keepers own most enfs after this patch.

[Wakizaka]

Finally, if you're scared about enf's getting something "more" powerful... dude, you got to try out keeper on test. As a prof, you should be there, but some guys are playing keeper very well and they are NOT a weak prof at all right now, imo, enf will put up a god fight 1 vs 1 against keeper but with ward+immi, you gunna limit a lot of proc chances and add clarion call and other breed boosts... imo keepers own most enfs after this patch.

I'll be on test once my replacement hardware is setup.
Surprised you never mentioned Enf's using ME + 1hb|1he setup with a lot more perks, unless you were choosing to ignore that and assume Enf's wouldn't use 2 different weapon types.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'll be on test once my replacement hardware is setup.
Surprised you never mentioned Enf's using ME + 1hb|1he setup with a lot more perks, unless you were choosing to ignore that and assume Enf's wouldn't use 2 different weapon types.

like I said, it doesn't matter.

keeper has proc damage which hits for a decent chunk of health, force opponent, and wrath (which has a lower check).

Keeper ALSO has more add dmg which makes all the perks hit harder.

Finally, keeper has HM line. And you won't understand till you get on test how powerful that is.

So, sure, keeper can perk reaver/Cyber samurai and use a double perkline alpha if you REALLY wanted too, with a swap in the middle. but keeper doesn't need it. With HM you got better alpha power vs evaders, and there's no lack of damage if played aggressively.

Enf, giver, use two perklines. Who cares? And, if they are already using 1HE/1HB... what makes you think they'd switch to ME - especially if ME is energy dmg and 1HB is melee.... ? that just doesn't make sense.

[DarkerThanBlack]

Bad idea.

I dislike the idea of a group perk line because that means balancing it around multiple professions and never actually fixing one or more of them.

This +1

[Le-Quack]

I dislike the idea of a group perk line because that means balancing it around multiple professions and never actually fixing one or more of them.

word

[Le-Quack]

like I said, it doesn't matter.

keeper has proc damage which hits for a decent chunk of health, force opponent, and wrath (which has a lower check).

Keeper ALSO has more add dmg which makes all the perks hit harder.

Finally, keeper has HM line. And you won't understand till you get on test how powerful that is.

So, sure, keeper can perk reaver/Cyber samurai and use a double perkline alpha if you REALLY wanted too, with a swap in the middle. but keeper doesn't need it. With HM you got better alpha power vs evaders, and there's no lack of damage if played aggressively.

Enf, giver, use two perklines. Who cares? And, if they are already using 1HE/1HB... what makes you think they'd switch to ME - especially if ME is energy dmg and 1HB is melee.... ? that just doesn't make sense.

you ned to be more updated. hm line is nerfed and dont even land on advs in limber.
also what that F does gm is landed make u powerfull for? you talk about uh u are perkable by crapp perks!!! u gonna die,. the fact is u wont even be close to dying, becose the otnes you fight has toolsets better than keepers, like coon, and heals. so they counter it and kill us.
also as i said hm perks are nerfed to the most extreme, they wont even løand on limber so gj on that nerf.

[Rockdizzle]

HM nerf of 10% and now they suddenly cant debuff a advy in limber? please a soli keep can still land HM debuffs on a advy with DoF+Limber+500 aad buff.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

you ned to be more updated. hm line is nerfed and dont even land on advs in limber.
also what that F does gm is landed make u powerfull for? you talk about uh u are perkable by crapp perks!!! u gonna die,. the fact is u wont even be close to dying, becose the otnes you fight has toolsets better than keepers, like coon, and heals. so they counter it and kill us.
also as i said hm perks are nerfed to the most extreme, they wont even løand on limber so gj on that nerf.

wow bro.

just wow. So much hurt here.

Keeper (your keeper I assume) can't land debuffs? Man, that's gotta hurt. So keeper's finally get love and you can't figure it out? It's a sad day for you mate, but I get that, I get you, you just suck and can't figure it out. I'm sorry.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Back on topic, Enf's clearly need ME line as well, the obvious fix is in OP

/thread

[wyldebeast]

What's the exact reasoning behind giving enf's access to yet another line of weapon perks? Just that they have ME buffs? Enf's also have piercing buffs, shouldn't they then also have access to Piercing Mastery? Sure, I'd love both perk lines on my enf, I gave up on both ME/1hb and Piercing/1hb setups due to lack of support, but there's already full support for 1hb, 1he, 2he and 2hb. Enf's aren't exactly lacking in options.

If the reasoning is, that enf's are melee masters and thus should have access to all the melee weapon perks lines, shouldn't soldiers then have access to Pistol Mastery and Demolitions, being masters of ranged weapons?

[Le-Quack]

wow bro.

just wow. So much hurt here.

Keeper (your keeper I assume) can't land debuffs? Man, that's gotta hurt. So keeper's finally get love and you can't figure it out? It's a sad day for you mate, but I get that, I get you, you just suck and can't figure it out. I'm sorry.

lol

[McKnuckleSamwich]

What's the exact reasoning behind giving enf's access to yet another line of weapon perks? Just that they have ME buffs? Enf's also have piercing buffs, shouldn't they then also have access to Piercing Mastery? Sure, I'd love both perk lines on my enf, I gave up on both ME/1hb and Piercing/1hb setups due to lack of support, but there's already full support for 1hb, 1he, 2he and 2hb. Enf's aren't exactly lacking in options.

If the reasoning is, that enf's are melee masters and thus should have access to all the melee weapon perks lines, shouldn't soldiers then have access to Pistol Mastery and Demolitions, being masters of ranged weapons?

hmm ya that's basically it in a nutshell.

I'm not suggesting enf's need it based on live and with their 1HB/1HE supercombo... i'm just suggesting that it makes sense.

Also, ya, piercing mastery is a group perk - so why don't enf have access to it?

Regarding Soldiers - Fair question, and I don't have an answer, however, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about soldiers having access to PM or grenade.

[Le-Quack]

i gonna stop troll, dont take my crapp to serious. i have no harm feelings ageinst anyone. i trolled for many years and i gonna step down with the trolling since many takes my worst and unwrapped comments and words to serious.