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Thread: 18.7.0.20 - Traders!

  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post

    Our static defence, which we have already discussed to death, is literally none-existent.

    Evade Clc -2050
    Dodge Rng - 2151
    Duck Exp - 2167
    Is this with AAD counted? because this seems really low. And I recall seeing traders with static 3k defence...?

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Is this with AAD counted? because this seems really low. And I recall seeing traders with static 3k defence...?
    That can't be with AAD, as my Trader sits at ~3.1k static last I checked.

    220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
    200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
    TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee

    Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP


  3. #163
    Yeah, its clearly without AAD.

    Then again, people on live will have a lot more then 3.2k AR.

  4. #164
    Yes, sorry that is without AAD. I totally forgot to factor that in.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  5. #165
    662 AAD is my current.
    2161/2151 are my highest evades (Duck/Dodge)

    2823/2813 Static Def before drains.


    Still laughably low. Granted if I put a lot more effort into it and actually setup a proper defensive build I could probably get maybe another few hundred points of AAD/evades. But the Soldier wasn't exactly what you'd call finished either.
    Last edited by Raggy; Mar 2nd, 2015 at 11:26:35.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  6. #166
    At the end the exact figures aren't really important. I could easily theorycraft AR for every perk alpha, with and without various set of drains, but I'd imagine that's something dev team already knows, or at least I hope they know when making balance decisions.

    The point is that 700 def, 10% reflect and SS need to be replaced, and its not going to be replaced easily. Post 18.7 , reasonable static def for endgame Trader is about 3k tops, since you absolutely have to use scope after Silverback nerf.

    That's nowhere near good enough in a world where even tl5 twinks are breaking 2k AR., not to mention what's possible on 220 endgame level.

  7. #167
    from memory, my trader had 11 s as with vte 275 and 3100/3150 def with 12 man. Most of time , in BS with a lot of player, i swaped hud 3 def to reach something more viable. With the new change it gonna be a pain to survive (if it is possible). Most of the change for other profession are quite great but for trader i dont see how it will be viable to pvp on it
    http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=189192
    2115 dodge/ 2065 clc&duck + 954 add+ 100 from 12 man : 3169 dodge and 3119 clc/duck.
    Last edited by dritst; Mar 2nd, 2015 at 16:46:51.
    Eilistrae 220/30/70 MA equip pic //Araushne 216/30 NT equip pic // Nhaundar 220/30 pic equip // Ahlysaaria 220/30 equip
    Dritst 220/30 Agent equip pic // Vhaeraun 218/30 fixer // Dylinrae 217/30 trader // Seldszar 220/29 adv
    Nhaundar 216/16 Trox enf <3 equip

    * http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=544974 <3 ty, how some ppl can be
    * S*rovi1: cant log in game funcom not responding Mrdex: they're translating Mrdex: give em some time.
    * Phante: whining is directly proportional with incompetence imo the more you sux the more youll cry and ask for stupid stuff.
    * [Provision]: 500m if you can even dent me You gained 103 PVP Solo Score.

  8. #168
    Yeah, that's about what I have as well. So lets say 3050 base. Even with that, its already hard enough to survive on Live, to the point when only dedicated Trader players are still bothering with 220 PvP.

    I only feel *somewhat* secure on Live after I land Divest and CP on the target, which currently puts me at 4125 Def vs. one target.

    After 18.7, having those two debuffs on target keeps me at 3625, on top of the fact that CP is 130% nr check now.

    You also can't SS, NBG lost 10% reflect. And to top it all, bunch of professions are being given low def check perks, as well as def checks on many breed perks have improved.

    Oh, and we're also being screwed over with Deflect, due to bad base IP template.

    Then you have reduced debuffs, reduced durations, reduced Aimed Shot recharge, and frankly I don't see how it can possibly be a playable profession. Worst survivability in the game, combined with arguably worst offensive toolset in the game.
    Last edited by lufa1982; Mar 2nd, 2015 at 22:09:19.

  9. #169
    Michi's stance on this would be well appreciated. Even on Test (where my 220 trader is in what I would consider a very solid PVP setup), I went 2-8 vs a 220 Keeper, and tbh I just had no drive to continue testing. It didn't seem like I was fighting a Keeper but fighting game mechanics to somehow get the fight back under my control and that's not fun.

  10. #170
    talk to vispa about survival.....

    :P

    On lie, traders at 3150 static def can drain you to hell. And I think that's the point of this patch. But imo it's overboard still.

  11. #171
    I fully believe in the notion that our drains were ridiculous at pretty much all TLs and this patch WOULD have fixed them quite nicely... if there weren't mechanics in place at present that then run what was both overpowered and necessary into our death.

    I have said this over and over again; the super-reliance on perks, and perk/specials alphas, coupled with a constant race to beat each others' AR and defense scores, has created an environment where you must have defense > AR, or substantial damage mitigation, or you're dead. We lost both, and now the perk system and classes GAINING viable specials threatens Traders with complete obsolescence because we cannot stop the tidal wave of damage that all classes, even Pistol Doctors, can unleash. It's not fun and was something that was bound to happen as the perk system aged and the game became almost entirely centered around it.

  12. #172
    In duels you can survive, yeah. In open PvP, any Trader worth his salt knows the only chance of surviving with more then 3 people present, is balancing on max casting/weapon range, while debuffing and putting pressure on key targets.

    And with 18.7 duel survivability is non-existent, too. The only reason Trader works in duels @18.6, is because you can lock initial alpha with SS and quickly go up from 3050 to 3650 and then to 4125 def. With 18.7 you have no option beyond taking entire alpha to the face, at which point we will start droping faster then sack of potatoes. Vispa included.

    I think everyone here would agree drains are onboxious and extremely frustrating to opponents, thats why some of us made Traders in a first place. But you know what is even more frustrating? Dying. So I can't really wrap my head around the idea that debuffs were deemed to be so unhealthy they needed to be nerfed to oblivion, but professions with 40k worth of alpha damage are left untouched or even buffed.
    Last edited by lufa1982; Mar 3rd, 2015 at 00:00:48.

  13. #173
    Maybe make drain AAO, AAD % based. That would balance it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    Maybe make drain AAO, AAD % based. That would balance it.
    We suggested % drains years ago but all the twinks cried because it would undermine their effort.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  15. #175
    They already balanced the drains, tbh. They just managed to completely break endgame Traders in the process.

    You can't take high risk/high reward class and dramatically nerf both the risk and the reward.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by lufa1982 View Post
    In duels you can survive, yeah. In open PvP, any Trader worth his salt knows the only chance of surviving with more then 3 people present, is balancing on max casting/weapon range, while debuffing and putting pressure on key targets.

    And with 18.7 duel survivability is non-existent, too. The only reason Trader works in duels @18.6, is because you can lock initial alpha with SS and quickly go up from 3050 to 3650 and then to 4125 def. With 18.7 you have no option beyond taking entire alpha to the face, at which point we will start droping faster then sack of potatoes. Vispa included.

    I think everyone here would agree drains are onboxious and extremely frustrating to opponents, thats why some of us made Traders in a first place. But you know what is even more frustrating? Dying. So I can't really wrap my head around the idea that debuffs were deemed to be so unhealthy they needed to be nerfed to oblivion, but professions with 40k worth of alpha damage are left untouched or even buffed.
    Just a couple points of contention here.

    A trader on live teamed with advy, keeper, crat and engi is unkillable 6 on 1.

    I saw it myself. I MB'd keep/advy/crat/engi and trader was played by someone else. In a 6 on 1 situation, I didn't take any damage on any of my chars and the trader took focus fire from the 6 opponents that came to counter us.

    I popped crat defences like overrule, but the trader was sitting well over 4500 static defence in that team with 7 blockers. iirc the trader was under constant fire for the entire fight and they got him to about half HP then I popped a few heals from advy and by that point we'de just absolutely annihilated them. The fixer meeped.

    In mass PVP... if you're in a properly built team, I think it's fair to say if you can PVP at ALL, you'll do fine in most situations.

    There are some important differences between 18.6 and 18.7.

    For traders the obvious difference is that in 18.6 you could have Divest (-475) AND Plunder (-475) AND CP (-350 / +300 AAD) OR IS (which in this case it doesn't matter because we're talking about defences)

    In 18.7 you're nerfed in 4 ways:
    1. you can only land divest AND plunder OR divest and IS OR CP and plunder OR CP and IS.
    2. divest and plunder have BOTH lost their -AAO component
    3. Opponents have significant boosts in debuff landing capability
    4. you lost SS which means you can't even make a last second save vs a strong alpha


    So, basically the NET loss in defence is 150 AAO (divest), +150AAO (plunder) + (+350--300AAD) for a grand total of 950 effective defence.

    Now, not to be retarded or anything, but 950 in live was retardedly too much, and it basically meant that once Divest/plunder/CP was running, you can't be killed by that person, period.

    With 18.7 it seemed that the devs were thinking about this, so they lowered some key debuff checks. Imo, this is enough. Keep your NR up, get the debuffs rolling, then it's alpha vs alpha defence, and if you screw it up the trader wins, if not, you win.

    If you wanted to nerf traders ability to outright win, the obvious change is to remove the AAO on divest and plunder... and imo that's even still balanced.

    But to move CP/IS into the same lines as divest/plunder is the big screwup imo.

    That's the change that needs a rollback.

  17. #177
    I thought we'd already established that the biggest glaring issue was the fact that with the removal of SS we have no alpha defence at all. So the whole Alpha vs Alpha debate is utterly moot since the fight is over a nanosecond into the duel.

    You can't talk about sorting the CP/IS Line Stacking until you can survive to the point you can actually use them.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  18. #178
    Anyway, to stop us going in circles until 18.7 release.

    This is what we have so far:

    • Removal of SS leaves us wide open to Perk Alpha facerolling.

    • Removal of D/P & CP/IS Line stacking has left us with considerably less defensive power whilst everyone has got better checking attacks.

    • The NBS DtN Ratio is too damn high to be of any use whatsoever.

    • Drain ratios are still too wonky to be used realistically against higher NR targets.

    • Ye gods where is our staying power at TL7
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Just a couple points of contention here.

    A trader on live teamed with advy, keeper, crat and engi is unkillable 6 on 1.

    I saw it myself. I MB'd keep/advy/crat/engi and trader was played by someone else. In a 6 on 1 situation, I didn't take any damage on any of my chars and the trader took focus fire from the 6 opponents that came to counter us.

    I popped crat defences like overrule, but the trader was sitting well over 4500 static defence in that team with 7 blockers. iirc the trader was under constant fire for the entire fight and they got him to about half HP then I popped a few heals from advy and by that point we'de just absolutely annihilated them. The fixer meeped.
    That's not Trader being unkillable. That's just your opponents being idiots. Engineer is the only viable first target in a setting like this, since it can smeared over the floor just with 2 Fixer tag team, let alone 6 vs. 6.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Now, not to be retarded or anything, but 950 in live was retardedly too much, and it basically meant that once Divest/plunder/CP was running, you can't be killed by that person, period.
    Come on now. Divest+Plunder+CP doesn't even put me on a level of evades of a limbered Fixer. Versus one opponent only, compared to static def vs. everybody. And I actually have to work hard for it by landing debuffs, while still being exposed to alpha from everybody else.

    Of course it should make me nearly unkillable. It would be insane if it wouldn't. I'm not looking to be immortal. But, as long as I'm way, WAY more exposed then the other guys at the start, I fully expect to be nearly unmovable, by that one target, once I roll all my debuffs into him.

    This touches on a much bigger problem with perk system, as Saetos pointed out few posts ago. The way AO's perk system works, someone is always going to be completely hopeless. Everything becomes an obsession about being unperkable, and its completely idiotic. Unfortunately that's what we have to work with here.
    Last edited by lufa1982; Mar 3rd, 2015 at 05:04:52.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by lufa1982 View Post
    That's not Trader being unkillable. That's just your opponents being idiots. Engineer is the only viable first target in a setting like this, since it can smeared over the floor just with 2 Fixer tag team, let alone 6 vs. 6.
    Lol you're dead right. I'm not suggesting the other team had it together.... I'm just saying that a trader with a properly built PVP team is pretty bloody strong - and yes, engies are facerolled by 1.1 prof easily, without outside heals engies are dead in <2 minutes in every fight in mass PVP I've ever seen.


    Quote Originally Posted by lufa1982 View Post
    Come on now. Divest+Plunder+CP doesn't even put me on a level of evades of a limbered Fixer. Versus one opponent only, compared to static def vs. everybody. And I actually have to work hard for it by landing debuffs, while still being exposed to alpha from everybody else.
    Ok, lets not blow things out of proportion here.

    1. Traders are not fixers
    2. Fixers are WTF OP so lets not try to balance against them
    3. A trader isn't exactly open to a perk faceroll to others if he's playing properly - if a trader is playing in mass PVP or BS or something where there's a good chance he'll run into a second toon, he should be looking to either a) have elevated defences to avoid said faceroll, or b) always be shuffling so he can see incoming's. 3150 static+green hud+pred+12man+CP = 3775 buffed defence - don't bull**** about that - that's solid defence, and that's unperkable with SL perks for everyone outside a team with crat or a uberbuffed AR soldier.




    Quote Originally Posted by lufa1982 View Post
    Of course it should make me nearly unkillable. It would be insane if it wouldn't. I'm not looking to be immortal. But, as long as I'm way, WAY more exposed then the other guys at the start, I fully expect to be nearly unmovable, by that one target, once I roll all my debuffs into him.
    I think that's exactly what 18.7 is trying to achieve here - balance between having "reasonable" defences so a trader isn't facerolled, but isn't going to WTF drain someone through the floor.

    Which is why I said what I said about putting CP/IS back into their separate line.

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