CCP making changes to EULA and multi boxing rules.

[Psikie]

And hothey is not the same a shortcut fyi

Glad you understand that now. Your welcome.

[Anonimofied]

Sorry for being unclear about MULTIBOX and MULTILOGGING because i normally MULTIPLAY. I used to play AO on 2 computers at the same time so yeah i MULTIPLAYING


btw Traderjill <3

[DigitalBath]

Sorry for being unclear about MULTIBOX and MULTILOGGING because i normally MULTIPLAY. I used to play AO on 2 computers at the same time so yeah i MULTIPLAYING


btw Traderjill <3

I used to do the same, but since I upgraded to a better computer overall and made my setup multi-monitor (for work-related reasons) I ended up trying running multiple clients, one per monitor. It works better for me.

What you do is more comparable to multilogging than multiboxing. But ironically it IS multiboxing (just without input broadcasting and input multiplexing). The term originates from using more than one computer to play multiple clients of the same game (as back when the whole thing started the few who could afford it had several machines at their disposal).
Useful bit of history.

[Voiran]

pretty useless to continue this discussion since fc has stated quite clearly that it is impossible to detect 3rd party software. Unless they decide develop some kind of illegal program for it and that would probably cost 500k-1million dollars. Fc probably thinks that multiboxing is just different playstyle and is performed in polite manner.

[Anonimofied]

Back in the days when i used to work with similar thing, we used to look for a known traffic pattern in the network that has been executed so fast that it is impossible for a human to do, we just mark that pattern then we do in depth investigation to find abnormalities, what causes that etc etc.
I dont think it is impossible to detects 3rd softwares like FC claim, they sounds liek they dont know how to do or where to look for.

[Caloss2]

--

Tell you what, I'll check the spots right now.

--EDIT:

Remains of Creepy Spider -> No one around it.
Tuq'usk isn't up atm. It's being farmed by a 220 clan shade. "(03:51) NAME REDACTED: yeah have been last few but just out of boredom" -> No multiboxing there!
Same shade's also doing Conflagrant.. and just gave me the timer for Tuq'usk. Kindness ftw.
Killed Crete myself.

With some variations, this is what Inferno Dynas have looked like to me for the last few months, at least..
Maybe it looks different when you're obsessively doing inf dragons and the OD wars scale up. But that's silly in itself if you think about it.

Last edited by DigitalBath; Today at 04:08:39.


At 4/5 am Euro time it's not massively busy online, and I wouldn't call checking maybe once a day if a mob is up obsessive, and then hearing from others they can never get near a non-instanced mob; if this is your normal/average time slot then no wonder you have such different views on the game.

[DigitalBath]

@Unidentified: That "pattern" could easily be disrupted by any multiboxer / botter / etc out there with randomized short (let's say 25 to 150ms for the purpose of this discussion, but it could be something more complex) delays.

Developing and running the monitoring traffic software server-side would already be out of FC's budget range, as it'd have to be software so advanced it can differentiate 4 people playing together and alpha'ing you vs. a multiboxer with the delays I've mentioned above alpha'ing you. IF such a software can exist.. it's not cheap in any way.

Client-side it's hard to develop an approach that monitors traffic without illegal ramifications in some countries. It's not going to happen.
I'll also remind you that Clicksaver and AOIA is more intrusive and illegal as per AO's EULA than multiboxing, so whatever policy changes happen may also affect those. (Not to be confused with botting/automation.. just input multiplexing and broadcasting).

(This is all moot as FC's stance on multiboxing is, as Voiran mentioned, permissive and unlikely to change for many reasons already mentioned by both FC staff and players.)

[DigitalBath]

Last edited by DigitalBath; Today at 04:08:39.


At 4/5 am Euro time it's not massively busy online, and I wouldn't call checking maybe once a day if a mob is up obsessive, and then hearing from others they can never get near a non-instanced mob; if this is your normal/average time slot then no wonder you have such different views on the game.

It's not. As I previously mentioned, my work forces me to have weird, revolving schedules. I play AO at almost all time ranges, including EU and US prime times.. (which explains why I got the loot from iraid, too).
Currently I TRY to be on during GMT 18+ to 22h as much as possible. With company, I'll linger on to 3-4am. But that's because the returning friends of mine play on that schedule too.
Sometimes I just can't though.. and end up playing GMT 5 to 8am then going to bed. Woo. Or worse, GMT 12-13 to 17pm, narrowly missing my friends.

I check the spots on average once or twice a day, too. Sometimes zero. But sometimes I check it every couple of hours because I'm at work without anything better to do but waiting on someone who's late/cancelled without warning/etc.

I think you get my point here, though.

[Anonimofied]

the technology i mentioned already exists but mostly used in banking industry and is licensed from companies that can even build the software after your company needs. The software license and hire people to monitor the traffic is not cheap and time consuming because mostly it is false alarm but as part of the routine it is normal to spend time to go through all

[Voiran]

i find using clicksaver more offensive than hotkeynet since it automatically clicks for you. And that is called botting.

[DigitalBath]

the technology i mentioned already exists in banking industry and is licensed from companies that can even build the software after your company needs. The software license and hire people to monitor the traffic is not cheap because mostly it is false alarm but as part of the routine we had to spend time to go through all

I understand. In that case the answer is that FC not only has no desire to contract such a service (they don't see multiboxing as a bannable offence), as they also cannot afford to. See FC's posts on the forum about both parts of what I claimed, Voiran linked quite a few of them earlier in this thread.

EDIT: Adding to this, FC would have to justify investing money in banning people who are paying accounts to play with several at once at a time, often contributing to teams and to the game's economy in a positive way when the game has a relatively low playerbase.
The investment in such software would have to bring a financial gain in order to even be considered and I highly doubt even the most uninformed but fervorous anti-multiboxer would dare say that could be done at this point or any time soon.

That's why my solution is aimed at the cause rather than at the consequence. Let's help make the game better (Michi is doing a phenomenal job at it, btw). Let's make the content enjoyable, fix what's broken with the game and both get people back.. as well as get a higher retention on those that check the game out for the first time.

If the population does indeed rise significantly with engine upgrade, steam integration + michi's batch of awesome fixes that we can, at this point, only dream about and multiboxing somehow becomes a problem on its own (there's no reason why it would.. look at most major MMORPG titles for why, EVE is a very different kind of game..) then the devs can justify tackling it and investing into solving it.. because it'll be a financially positive investment on a game with enough profits to take the risk associated with it.

i find using clicksaver more offensive than hotkeynet since it automatically clicks for you. And that is called botting.

It is botting. It's also injecting code into AO (MessageProtocol.dll gets altered so CS can read mission information).
It's extremely offensive to the EULA of AO and any other game like it. It's also openly allowed by FC and applauded by the playerbase. Take from that what you will.

AOIA uses a similar method btw.. And it's invaluable for almost anyone. After over 11 years of looting I couldn't quite live without it, myself.

[Anonimofied]

The funny thing is, the real issue with AO is FUNCOM HAHAHA

[DigitalBath]

The funny thing is, the real issue with AO is FUNCOM HAHAHA

I'll drink some whiskey to that! Though I'll admit I've been pretty happy about the recent changes. We have a real GD now.

[Freor]

I hope you're not serious. But here's a guide for you and anyone else who wrongly assume 3rd party tools are required:

Press F10, go to Preferences -> GUI -> Control Center -> Number of Shortcut bars.
Add one or two to what you already have and know what # they are. For example, add a 5th and a 6th bar.
Load your alpha on to those bars. Even the most refined alpha can be put in two bars, I'm sure. Specials, perks, items and nanos can be put on there.
Press F10 again, go to Key bindings -> Bar_05_01 through Bar 06_10 (or whatever bar # yours is) and set that all to the same key / button.
Optional: Remove that key from your keyboard and have it painted red, with white or yellow lettering for IWIN.

For people using multiple weapons for their alpha, they can use two keys and have the last action on Bar 5 switch the weapon so you can press Bar 6's key for the rest of your alpha.

--

Are you seriously comparing using one characters alpha to using alphas from 5-6 toons via boxing within a fraction of a second? There's a reason AS, FA, nukes etc have cooldowns/recharges. Boxer throws 5-6 ASs or nukes at you instantly.

[DigitalBath]

Are you seriously comparing using one characters alpha to using alphas from 5-6 toons via boxing within a fraction of a second? There's a reason AS, FA, nukes etc have cooldowns/recharges. Boxer throws 5-6 ASs or nukes at you instantly.

No. That wasn't my point at all or what I was answering to! Don't just answer to things randomly.. you'll end up not making sense.

I was explaining you could bind several actions to 1 key within the client to someone who claimed otherwise. Nothing else.

I'll definitely compare, however, alpha'ing on several multi logged toons to several multi boxed toons. It's equally deadly since you take under a second to alt-tab and press the IWIN button. Even less if you have several monitors and several windowed clients. you just click each client once and then press the alpha key, having more control than the multiboxer would have in case a 2nd person shows up (because you wouldn't waste some of the alphas on an already dead target).

[Freor]

Yeah, but team with who? When? I can safely say that during the hours that I have been able to play recently, there is no chance I will get a BoC on my latest tl7 without buying LR. A tl7 crat (me) sat on LFT every day for about 4 hours a night, watched the bots, spammed chat, and got on exactly 2 beast teams - and lost every single roll on both, for anything that I actually needed.

If they weren't filling a niche in the AO economy, they wouldn't exist, simple as that. There are MB farmers because right now, the economy support MB farmers. Whether it's good or bad is irrelevant - they exist because they are necessary.

For starters, people could try teaming the ones who are now boxing and have equal chance to loot instead of paying for LR. Several raids, including pande, also don't require boxing to do with very few people. I know few guys who used to farm TNH alone by normal multilogging, no boxing required. I'm not sure if they did Beast completely alone, but with two players for sure. That's both of them controlling couple accs without 3rd party software.

Boxing may provide some sort of temporary easy-way-out for teaming problems during the dead hours, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. There are other ways to help those people, altering the raids as a last resort. A solution that kills a big portion of the game (PvP) and reduces population even further is a very poor one.

I think it's a lame way to play the game - I have never had less fun than when I MB encounters. But I also think GMI mercantilism is boring as hell. People spend their entire time buying cheap and selling high, and make far more than MB'ers do. Whose to say that's the wrong way to play a game, as long as it's within the rules and they get some form of enjoyment out of it?

I wouldn't really mind boxing/boxers much if they didn't affect other players and the entire game so negatively. Imho it's this negative impact on the game as a whole that makes it "the wrong way to play".

No. That wasn't my point at all or what I was answering to! Don't just answer to things randomly.. you'll end up not making sense.

I was explaining you could bind several actions to 1 key within the client to someone who claimed otherwise. Nothing else.

I'll definitely compare, however, alpha'ing on several multi logged toons to several multi boxed toons. It's equally deadly since you take under a second to alt-tab and press the IWIN button. Even less if you have several monitors and several windowed clients. you just click each client once and then press the alpha key, having more control than the multiboxer would have in case a 2nd person shows up (because you wouldn't waste some of the alphas on an already dead target).

My apologies, read that too fast after having just woke up. My bad!

However, while moving your mouse to those other windows, the other toons are not controllable and vulnerable. And it takes several secs to alt-tab through all 5-6 accs, at least in consistent manner. That gives the other player(s) time to activate defences, throw a heal, meep, you name it. In other words, the player with multiple clients is still subject to normal human limitations. Boxer is not. If the fight takes longer, this also means their specials are now in different recharge states and so on.

As I said before, I/we never run into boxers before last August. We did fight against normal multiloggers though. And while it definitely gives people an edge, it's an acceptable one and nowhere near as devastating as boxing with instant "input multiplexing".

[DigitalBath]

My apologies, read that too fast after having just woke up. My bad!

Heh, happens!

However, while moving your mouse to those other windows, the other toons are not controllable and vulnerable. And it takes several secs to alt-tab through all 5-6 accs, at least in consistent manner. That gives the other player(s) time to activate defences, throw a heal, meep, you name it. In other words, the player with multiple clients is still subject to normal human limitations. Boxer is not. If the fight takes longer, this also means their specials are now in different recharge states and so on.

As I said before, I/we never run into boxers before last August. We did fight against normal multiloggers though. And while it definitely gives people an edge, it's an acceptable one and nowhere near as devastating as boxing with instant "input multiplexing".

I understand what you mean, but I'd say moving a mouse across a corner connecting 4 small windows and clicking two mouse buttons or 1 mouse button and 1 key will give you no chance to react. It's not "as fast" as a multiboxer, but it won't allow you to survive, especially if we're talking about paid multiboxing which may include a stun in the alpha anyway.

On that note, I don't think you understand how vulnerable multibox "slave" toons often are in comparison to multilogged ones. You lose a lot of control by synchronizing your actions on several accounts since you often activate defenses on all toons at once if you can't finely control them. Any experienced pvp'er can make a MB'er burn his defenses this way and then kill the characters off with tactics and a friend or two.
Keep in mind AO is not a prime candidate for multiboxing as the most used software doesn't work with it and the bad client-server sync prevents you from reliably moving all toons at the same time without /follow. (At least from what I know, maybe there's a workaround for this too)

Multiboxing has been around for many, many years. It just wasn't as noticeable for the general population because there were more barriers both in the hardware and in the software parts of it. Multi "box" referred to having several computers running a game. People would then use either software or hardware (KVM switches, for example) to link the input fed to those computers and make things work. It cost quite a bit of money..

Nowadays a combination of it being easier and cheaper (anyone with a decent 600€ 8-core rig can run at least 6 AO clients without much hassle) and the AO population being much lower makes it more noticeable. The fact it's more often used in PvP is also a contributing factor.

Arguing that a multiboxer that invested time (gearing those toons isn't easy for anyone, same w/ twinking them, it's 6 times the loot requirements of a single toon) and money on his setup would accept playing in a non-multiboxing setting if MB'ing was banned isn't very realistic. They likely would either keep just 1-2 accounts active or, more likely, move to another game.

This would make it a huge net loss for FC and for the majority of the player base, as I detailed earlier in this thread.

[Freor]

why it's only people from equilibrium that are complaining about multiboxe in pvp? same crowd control tools are valid against multiboxer as it is to individual player. It is new era now. You have think about proper strategy to be able to defend your site instead of running there straight alpha everyone having pocket agent fp doc spamming ch from sneak.

Wasn't aware Alternity, Caloss2, Jill, Unidentified etc were in Eq. Thanks for the heads up! On a more serious note, think I'm the only Eq poster in this thread. Others have posted before sure, but a big portion of us either quit or moved to pvm. Some still try pvp occasionally. EQ is a PvP org, so it's kinda natural many of us reacted last year when competitive NW became impossible.

And lol at new era... you could just as well say it was a new era with the NT damage exploit. You would have just had to find ways to counter that! Perhaps things like fun and balance are not familiar things to you, but they should be for any game designer. And AO + MB combination is neither fun nor balanced. As much as I hate MB is this game, I sort of hope few clans start that too and start hitting *your* bases. Then it's your turn to figure out ways to "counter" that when you can't even get to the base on time

I understand what you mean, but I'd say moving a mouse across a corner connecting 4 small windows and clicking two mouse buttons or 1 mouse button and 1 key will give you no chance to react. It's not "as fast" as a multiboxer, but it won't allow you to survive, especially if we're talking about paid multiboxing which may include a stun in the alpha anyway.

As I said, we played against players like that before boxing. For years. Sometimes we won, sometimes lost. That's life. Trust me: humans aren't machines. They may succeed in very fast alt-tab/mouse-to-other-window alphas every now and then, but not every time. Boxer does that every time by clicking one button.

On that note, I don't think you understand how vulnerable multibox "slave" toons often are in comparison to multilogged ones. You lose a lot of control by synchronizing your actions on several accounts since you often activate defenses on all toons at once if you can't finely control them. Any experienced pvp'er can make a MB'er burn his defenses this way and then kill the characters off with tactics and a friend or two.
Keep in mind AO is not a prime candidate for multiboxing as the most used software doesn't work with it and the bad client-server sync prevents you from reliably moving all toons at the same time without /follow. (At least from what I know, maybe there's a workaround for this too)

There are guides how to avoid those probs. It's very easy to activate only one defence for example: Just have "TMS" on hotbar, but pressing that activates tms only on sold and does nothing on others. Many boxers then have "DefAll" button that activates defences on all toons, TMS on sold, DOF on adv etc - with one click. Client-server sync isn't a problem with /follow around. Just watch some of the videos.

Multiboxing has been around for many, many years. It just wasn't as noticeable for the general population because there were more barriers both in the hardware and in the software parts of it. Multi "box" referred to having several computers running a game. People would then use either software or hardware (KVM switches, for example) to link the input fed to those computers and make things work. It cost quite a bit of money..

Nowadays a combination of it being easier and cheaper (anyone with a decent 600€ 8-core rig can run at least 6 AO clients without much hassle) and the AO population being much lower makes it more noticeable. The fact it's more often used in PvP is also a contributing factor.

Aight, I'll take yer word for it. Thing is, if there were people doing that before, they werent causing any problems. The ones who do it now are.

Arguing that a multiboxer that invested time (gearing those toons isn't easy for anyone, same w/ twinking them, it's 6 times the loot requirements of a single toon) and money on his setup would accept playing in a non-multiboxing setting if MB'ing was banned isn't very realistic. They likely would either keep just 1-2 accounts active or, more likely, move to another game.

This would make it a huge net loss for FC and for the majority of the player base, as I detailed earlier in this thread.

With all due respect, I think you vastly overestimate the number of boxers, especially the number that would quit. Few might, but that could easily be made up for with other portions of the game becoming playable again, and possible new players coming with NPE not having boxing as a requirement to try pvp for instance. And if FC feels too nervous, they could just ban boxing in non-closed areas. Even that would be better than current havoc.

[DigitalBath]

As I said, we played against players like that before boxing. For years. Sometimes we won, sometimes lost. That's life. Trust me: humans aren't machines. They may succeed in very fast alt-tab/mouse-to-other-window alphas every now and then, but not every time. Boxer does that every time by clicking one button.

Humans control the multiboxed toons. The added convenience on attack is lost on the defense side of it. See some videos of people taking down multiboxers... it happens a lot.

There are guides how to avoid those probs. It's very easy to activate only one defence for example: Just have "TMS" on hotbar, but pressing that activates tms only on sold and does nothing on others. Many boxers then have "DefAll" button that activates defences on all toons, TMS on sold, DOF on adv etc - with one click. Client-server sync isn't a problem with /follow around. Just watch some of the videos.

The problem is that to be effective on multiboxed PvP you can't do that. You simply don't have the time to know which of your toons needs the defensive cooldown up and react to that. You either defend them all (and become very vulnerable after the cooldowns are off) or you die before you get a chance to act (against good pvp'ers with good tactics and CC) if the multiboxer meeps you take the time to regroup and prepare for round 2.
/follow creates a bunch of nice sync issues as well. I /follow my dual-logged toons and it's funny to see how horrible that works. Imagine 6.
The hard part isn't the binding. It's monitoring all toons and being that fast defending them. He can't know if you're focusing one of his toons or spreading out. You know he's going to just hit one of your players. That's a huuuuge tactical advantage.

A multiboxer will likely always kill 1 person attacking them. Even up the numbers a little to 2-3 vs a multiboxer and he's toast. It's not fair to say "he'll just get 3 more multiboxers in there!" because that realistically won't happen.

Multiboxing with a truly healthy population is just not feasible given the CC mechanics in AO, too. Seeing half of your controlled toons teleported because the playfield's filled up means you're done boxing there.

With all due respect, I think you vastly overestimate the number of boxers, especially the number that would quit. Few might, but that could easily be made up for with other portions of the game becoming playable again, and possible new players coming with NPE not having boxing as a requirement to try pvp for instance. And if FC feels too nervous, they could just ban boxing in non-closed areas. Even that would be better than current havoc.

No offense taken there, but I disagree with you on the impact boxers have regardless of their number and on your method to fix the problem. I mentioned this before but AO needs, imho, an inclusive approach to most problems rather than an exclusive one. We need to get more people in instead of banning part of the existing population, especially a part that contributes to a more stable economy.
Fix the population issues and you'll be back to not really noticing multiboxers in PvP again, just like you didn't before. And if you do eventually bump into one, you'll have the manpower to kill it.

New players coming from the NPE will get absolutely destroyed in PvP but it's not going to be the multiboxers killing them. It'll be the twinks and it'll appear equally unfair since a decent twink can take on several noobs without skipping a beat. I hope no one argues against AO's twinking here, that'd be insane.

[Anonimofied]

There will always be some form of cheat and exploiters, doesnt matter multibox is there or not. Sad but true