Monthly Development Update - September 2014

[Pafpuf]

There you have it. Our "personal preference" doesn't fit your "personal preference", so we're wrong, you're right.

Exactly, you're wrong and I'm right. Thing is I don't undermine suggestions to improve pvm, even though I don't prioritize it. I've even written lots of suggestions on how to improve things like leveling, farming etc. Which can't be said for the pvm purists in this thread that jumped me the second I suggested that funcom should throw us pvpers a fricken bone.

I take it you're new here because you think all veterans are pvpers. That couldn't be farther from the truth because if anything the stale, dead-end design of AO's pvp is what makes people quit faster than anything. Furthermore pvpers make up less than 10%of the remaining population, whereas a huge majority are veterans.

Another thing is you put words in my mouth which is highly immature, saying that my goal is to make pvp "primary" in this game. How exactly would having a tiny percentage of rewards that pvm offers made obtainable via pvp make pvp "primary"? Like I already said I want people to have options which is how modern games are designed. But you're a selfish hypocrite who's all against rewards for pvpers but have no problem with pvpers being dragged into pvm for literally everything.

For any pvm purist that feels threatened by the idea of item rewards for pvpers: go to all of your characters, open their equipment windows, inventories and banks. Count the number of items you have, then split them into groups acquired via pvm and acquired via pvp (actual pvp I'm not talking about buying second-hand victory points). Of all credits you made in this game, how much of it was from engaging in pvp activity? Few mil from selling VP? Isn't even enough to cover the price of heal stims. Take all of that into consideration, look at those numbers, think hard and tell me again why exactly do you feel threatened.

[Traderjill]

The difference between pvmers and pvpers is that pvmers like to fight npcs while pvpers prefer to fight more intelligent and less predictable, more challenging opponents.

I have agreed with a lot of what you've said in this thread but I really think you ought to rethink your understanding of why some people are pvmers and some are pvpers.

I am currently a PvMer in Anarchy Online but I wasn't always (and it is worth noting that I enjoy PvP engagements in other games I play). I am what you might call a support player. I'm not into 1v1 battles and I have never cared about titles. What I enjoy, in games, is teamwork and strategy with a healthy does of competition and sportsmanship thrown in. I used to get that from Notum Wars and, initially, battlestations. At some point, however, this game seemed to turn away from teamwork and became about solo kills and ganks. That's around the same time that it seemed that sportsmanship got thrown out the window and people just became ridiculously rude to not only the 'other side' but also their own faction.

So I opted out. I opted out of bots filled with what I could only describe as raging teenagers (looking back I now realize that most of them were actually my age) and I opted out of soloing (I don't enjoy it in PvP or PvM, except in small doses). I also enjoy a challenge so I'm one of the people that complained constantly about my side spawn camping the other side and eventually when nothing changed (it took a long time for them to implement a fix for that), I opted out of battlestations (except what was necessary to obtain VP, before it became trade-able).

I would love to see PvP in AO revived. I'd love to participate again. If I were to name my 3 most memorable and entertaining experiences in AO, 2 of them would be on a battlefield during a tower offensive and 1 of them (believe it or not) was in the Notum Miner area.

Anyway, sorry for the long post but I just really felt the need to defend PvMers. It is unfair to lump sum everyone into one little category. All players are different. It is also worth noting that I personally find that I have more in common with PvP-oriented players that enjoy team PvP encounters than PvM players that prefer to solo. It isn't all as black and white as one might think.

[Psikie]

No I'm looking for incentive for endgame characters to pvp. Rewards, believe it or not, can come in forms other than experience and vp. You know, like they already do in pvm.

I won't make you pull your hair out any more Puffy. You may not realize it, but we have in a sense been involved in pvp here on the forums with our debate. You know player versus player... kinda ironic wouldn't you say?

I've read the arguments here, and it seems to me that Psikie wants incentives, and Puf wants incentives. The only difference is the incentives psikie suggested are not the ones that puf wants.

I think its fair to say that you're both on the same page, but we just need to find the appropriate rewards/incentives to encourage participation not only by endgame people, but by people who are interested in improving their toon/levelling/whatever else.

<snip>

This way you can attend BS to get most of the gear you need that's hard to find teams for, or you can buy items to transfer to an alt or sell stuff, or make armour, whatever. The point is though to have stuff that people ACTUALLY want to buy with VP.

I think you hit the nail on the head, I actual like pvp very much. I just don't like BS much. To me the real pvp players are the omnis that go flagged to old Athens grid or clansmen who go flagged to Omni trade grid. I would support your idea on a similar reward system.

I think someone said, "The difference between pvmers and pvpers is that pvmers like to fight npcs while pvpers prefer to fight more intelligent and less predictable, more challenging opponents."

If that is true why do pvp players kite each other and jump into backyards in Borealis? Isn't that EXACTELY the same way you fight pvm mobs? Kiting and then zoning if too tough? Things that make you go hmmm.

[Discipline]

Exactly, you're wrong and I'm right. Thing is I don't undermine suggestions to improve pvm, even though I don't prioritize it. I've even written lots of suggestions on how to improve things like leveling, farming etc. Which can't be said for the pvm purists in this thread that jumped me the second I suggested that funcom should throw us pvpers a fricken bone.

Stop playing the victim role. "PvM purists" - like you call them - have nothing against PvP having rewards. But they do have a problem with PvP have the same rewards - even partially - as PvM does. You want PvP have rewards? Implement a set of items/huds/utils, etc. that are affective only in PvP, not usable in PvM.

I take it you're new here because you think all veterans are pvpers. That couldn't be farther from the truth because if anything the stale, dead-end design of AO's pvp is what makes people quit faster than anything. Furthermore pvpers make up less than 10%of the remaining population, whereas a huge majority are veterans.

What I meant by:

This is exactly why the PvP matter should not be adressed based on the current population. Because the vets already have experienced the game and all it has to offer. And everything that's left for them is PvP. You're one of the vets and all that's left for you - at this right moment, when there is no "new" content - is PvP.

is that while the 90% of the people enjoy PvM while waiting for new content, the 10% PvPers that are left should not stand as basis on the type of changes PvP should go through. Instead, the changes should focus on a larger picture that would work with low population and with high population.

Another thing is you put words in my mouth which is highly immature, saying that my goal is to make pvp "primary" in this game. How exactly would having a tiny percentage of rewards that pvm offers made obtainable via pvp make pvp "primary"? Like I already said I want people to have options which is how modern games are designed. But you're a selfish hypocrite who's all against rewards for pvpers but have no problem with pvpers being dragged into pvm for literally everything.

What I said in my previous post: AO is a PvM game in which PvP has developed. You don't want PvP-er dragged into PvM for literraly everything? Then ask for implementation of some items that are affective only in PvP. If not, you'll just have to accept it.

Take all of that into consideration, look at those numbers, think hard and tell me again why exactly do you feel threatened.

I do not accept your over-all ideea of the game. That doesn't mean I am in a conflict with you, personally. Meaning I do not feel threatened about it, I feel that it will be a mistake.
I am a PvPer and a PvMer. I always loved PvP and will always look forward to it. I've regreted - and still do - the change of title system. That change took a lot of fun/drama/grief/zerg/competition which made PvP very enjoyable, out of the game. As well as the 5 minutes flag.

I have nothing against rewards like heal kits, root grafts and other things that are very used in PvP. I do have something against giving PvM items obtainable through PvP - as i stated above - because that will mix up the two.

I want PvP improved. I want the old PvP title system back. I want the /duel option to stay while remove the free-farm of titles with nothing to loose. I want the BS be more active and I'd love Borealis PvP to be active again as it was back in the day (at WA or OA or TG). But I'd like to have PvP and gain rewards that are PvP based, not PvM.

[Pafpuf]

I have agreed with a lot of what you've said in this thread but I really think you ought to rethink your understanding of why some people are pvmers and some are pvpers.

I am currently a PvMer in Anarchy Online but I wasn't always (and it is worth noting that I enjoy PvP engagements in other games I play). I am what you might call a support player. I'm not into 1v1 battles and I have never cared about titles. What I enjoy, in games, is teamwork and strategy with a healthy does of competition and sportsmanship thrown in. I used to get that from Notum Wars and, initially, battlestations. At some point, however, this game seemed to turn away from teamwork and became about solo kills and ganks. That's around the same time that it seemed that sportsmanship got thrown out the window and people just became ridiculously rude to not only the 'other side' but also their own faction.

So I opted out. I opted out of bots filled with what I could only describe as raging teenagers (looking back I now realize that most of them were actually my age) and I opted out of soloing (I don't enjoy it in PvP or PvM, except in small doses). I also enjoy a challenge so I'm one of the people that complained constantly about my side spawn camping the other side and eventually when nothing changed (it took a long time for them to implement a fix for that), I opted out of battlestations (except what was necessary to obtain VP, before it became trade-able).

I would love to see PvP in AO revived. I'd love to participate again. If I were to name my 3 most memorable and entertaining experiences in AO, 2 of them would be on a battlefield during a tower offensive and 1 of them (believe it or not) was in the Notum Miner area.

Anyway, sorry for the long post but I just really felt the need to defend PvMers. It is unfair to lump sum everyone into one little category. All players are different.

I understand perfectly what you mean, I myself prefer team play over soloing which is why I'd want to make pvp popular at all in this game. Just like you I'm an all-around player and don't mind occasional pvm, I just prefer pvp. The thing is the entire game revolves around pvm and all meaningful pvm content is ancient, really easy for an experienced player and when repeated into oblivion creates a pretty dull experience. I'm sure you'll agree with me on that. Since funcom isn't going to do a complete overhaul of the pvm experience in this game nor do I expect them to since that's tremendous amounts of work I think it's a very fair thing to ask that instead of killing the same mob for the thousandth time maybe we could acquire the item through other means, most logical one being pvp obtained currency.

What some people don't understand that if a video game wants to be successful it has to appeal to a broad audience. AO is for the most part pvm only. You can pvp for years and have absolutely nothing to show for it (except a title, whoopdeedoo). I was never motivated to create a lot of characters in this game only because I knew that omg I'd have to spend hours upon hours of my own time and the game's paid time on the same boring instances and repetitively kill the same unchallenging mobs again and again. What that means is that building a character for people who have pvping preferences is 100% unfun. My first character was insanely fun to level, I must admit. Second one was okay. By the time I got to finish my 3rd 220 all I could think was "never again". When people are denied options, when they're forced down a linear path one they didn't prefer from the start they will opt to quit. And they did, a lot of them did, for that very reason. I know I would still be playing this game only if pvp was worthwhile, regardless of every other flaw. But it's not worthwhile, it's an optional activity the same way logging in and running a /disco macro is.

[Raggy]

You can pvp for years and have absolutely nothing to show for it (except a title, whoopdeedoo).

Gotta stop you right there. You're ignoring one of the largest and most important rewards in any MMORPG ever created. Recognition. I can reel off a huge list of influential PvPers any day of the week despite not being part of the PvP scene for a good few years.

Can I do the same with PvMers? Ofc not. Invention and imagination flourishes in the face of adversity. PvP generates the most diverse and unique builds in the game.



The reward is social.

[Discipline]

Gotta stop you right there. You're ignoring one of the largest and most important rewards in any MMORPG ever created. Recognition. I can reel off a huge list of influential PvPers any day of the week despite not being part of the PvP scene for a good few years.

Can I do the same with PvMers? Ofc not. Invention and imagination flourishes in the face of adversity. PvP generates the most diverse and unique builds in the game.



The reward is social.

This.
That is why PvM and PvP cannot be mixed together.

[Pafpuf]

Gotta stop you right there. You're ignoring one of the largest and most important rewards in any MMORPG ever created. Recognition. I can reel off a huge list of influential PvPers any day of the week despite not being part of the PvP scene for a good few years.

Can I do the same with PvMers? Ofc not. Invention and imagination flourishes in the face of adversity. PvP generates the most diverse and unique builds in the game.

The reward is social.

That part is glaringly obvious to me and the reason for that is like I said pvp is significantly more challenging than pvm and grants more recognition by default. What you don't see is the big picture in which most of us aren't narcissists who thrive on attention, we just want to play the game and considering that the game costs us both time and money we would like something in return for the time spent in it.

If anyone is still thinking "but isn't just pvping satisfactory enough" I suggest you read through all my posts in this thread until they sink in and if you still have that question in your head you should refrain from posting anything.

I want PvP improved. I want the old PvP title system back.

See the fact that you consider the old pvp title system an actual improvement shows how little you know about how to improve anything. Old pvp titles did not grant any reward. If anything they promoted unsportsmanlike behavior all around where people (narcissists who farmed them with the help of friends, did not gain them through actual pvp prowess) would often look down on those with lower titles, annoying and demotivating those who are subject to such taunts. They didn't mean anything, in 2-3 days with lots of pvp I could go from expert to rookie and back to expert. People only miss them for reasons of nostalgia as they literally had no purpose, no meaning, and they were definitely not a representative of skill or anything else. Especially in a game where two characters can literally instakill any opponent with ease if they jump them at the right time, without that player's character having any chance of surviving let alone fighting back.

[Discipline]

See the fact that you consider the old pvp title system an actual improvement shows how little you know about how to improve anything. Old pvp titles did not grant any reward.

Alright, don't bring the old PvP system back. But implement a system that is fun through competition and challenge with PvP based rewards.
The old title based system was amazingly fun because you had something to loose. Which is why people clinged on the titles. When you've gained a title, you felt you achieved something. When you lost a title, you felt like you've lost what you've worked for.
As it is now, you have nothing to loose. Which is making the something that you can win worthless. I know, you want actual rewards. Sure, I agree with that. But make them be PvP based rewards. Don't turn PvP into PvM or the other way around. Even "partially".

[Lheann]

I have set quiet on the PVP rewards scene for a while now. Here are my thoughts.

1. The reward needs to be not farmable. Or at least very hard to not farm with an army of alts.
2. The reward should be available at all levels.

I am going to use a system from MOBA's because it rewards going after players that have been successful at killing and staying alive. This also prevents farming your legion of alts for kills to raise some kill counter because the reward is based on the player having kills racked up.

The System
Once a player has greater than 3 kills racked up they have a bounty placed on them for every kill above 3. The bounty scales up so there is greatly more reward for killing someone on a 10 kill killing streak vice on 4 kills.

Formulas
Length of Kill Streak - 3 = Reward Base
if ( Reward Base <= 3 )
Reward Base * 100 = Actual VP Awarded
else if ( Reward Base <= 7 )
Reward Base * 200 = Actual VP Awarded
else if ( Reward Base <= 10 )
Reward Base * 300 = Actual VP Awarded
else /* greater then 10 kills in streak */
Reward Base * 400 = Actual VP Awarded

Some Examples:
"George The Man Killer" has won 4 PVP fights (not duels) in a row. Win = killed opponent.
"Trisha Loves To Gank" engages George in a PVP fight and kills him.
George's streak count resets to 0.
Trisha's streak count increases by 1.
Trisha reward is (4 - 3) = 1 * 100 = 100 VP

"Eddy Trox From Brains" has won 15 fights in his current streak.
"No Nano Nathan" jumps him in bor and manages a victory.
Eddy's streak count resets to 0.
Nathan's streak count increases by 1.
Nathan's reward is ( 15 - 3 ) = 12 * 400 = 4800 VP

Now the actually VP reward and scaling steps are subject to adjustment but the idea is you get nothing for killing someone that has zero kills. The big rewards come from killing people on huge streaks.

Title System
Now how would a player know if the target has value?
Target and press T. At the very top should be added a Large Bold line that says something like

if ( Kill Streak <= 3 )
is blank you have title yet
else if ( Kill Streak <= 5 )
On a Killing Spree
else if ( Kill Streak <= 8 )
Dominating
else if ( Kill Streak <= 11 )
Devastor of Souls
else if ( Kill Streak <= 14 )
Master of Anarchy
else
Grand Master of Death

Again subject to lore fitting phrases but something to consider. As an alternative to the info being on the target info page FC could make it display above the character name. In this case I think it should be a non-optional display. Basically if you PVP you get these cool titles but they will be visible because they motivate others to take you down thus motivating PVP. I like the forced display above character name option myself.

Title Hugging
Now to kill Title Huggers from happening again.
Your kill streak decays by 1 every 36 hours of real time. So if you get to Master of Anarchy you have to keep killing to keep that or else will go away. One other change I would subscribe to. Running into a back yard to escape death penalize you 5 kill counts.
Basically something along the lines of:

if ( in PVP combat and Zone Entered == backyard )
Kill Streak = Kill Streak - 5
if ( Kill Streak < 0 ) Kill Streak = 0

In short make it costly to backyard hug. Sure you live and save some title but you will lose something as well.

Farming
No matter the controls put in place farming will happen. That is the nature of online games. But we can make it work to farm. Here is a list of rules that I think would be a good start at slowing down farming.

Kill streak does not increment if players are in same org.
Kill streak does not increment if players are in a back yard.
Kill streak does not increment if player killed target in last 15 minutes and gas level >= 25%. (time is subject to adjustment)
Kill streak does not increment if player is in 100% gas area.
Kill streak does not increment if fight is a duel.
Kill streak does not increment if player is on noob island/arete.

I am seriously considering kill streak no incrementing if players are same faction. Guess that one can be open to debate but the idea is to promote PVP. Since game lore is faction based PVP then the rule makes some sense.

Battle Stations
The system will be active on the battle stations. You get someone dominating and manage to take them down there should be reward for that. Likewise if you dominate the battle station you can come off it with a nice title.

Closing
I Hope I have covered the basic ground work well enough for people to consider this. In short I want to give back Visible Titles, introduce real spendable rewards for PVP and promote a system that encourages and rewards targeting of the more successful PVPers. In short you kill a lot and you become a target to be killed. Now with more VP coming in from this suggestion it would be time for FC to add more good stuff we can spend in on.

[Traderjill]

Lheann, interesting idea. How does that work if you're in a team? Do you get the same type of credit for the kill?

[Psikie]

like I said pvp is significantly more challenging than pvm and grants more recognition by default. What you don't see is the big picture in which most of us aren't narcissists who thrive on attention,

Really? Really?

Well I suppose there is a huge difference between rooting and snaring a player while tms or coon is up and running away? Or kiting melee players in pvp. Or double/triple nuking through reflects. How about crat init debuffing them to 1/10 speed?

Somehow it escapes me how this is more challenging than pvm or requires some special "skills". Because I don't see the difference in tactics. But alas that is beyond the point I suppose.

The real question is what rewards would you suggest for pvp? Then maybe we can stop hypotheticals and get to brass tacks.

[Lheann]

Jill,
The system is based on 1v1 pvp. The person that delivers the killing blow get the kill and the reward. Just like in MOBA's. So in a team or not it would work the same.

[Psikie]

I have set quiet on the PVP rewards scene for a while now. Here are my thoughts.

1. The reward needs to be not farmable. Or at least very hard to not farm with an army of alts.
2. The reward should be available at all levels.

Title Hugging
Now to kill Title Huggers from happening again.
Your kill streak decays by 1 every 36 hours of real time. So if you get to Master of Anarchy you have to keep killing to keep that or else will go away. One other change I would subscribe to. Running into a back yard to escape death penalize you 5 kill counts.

I like this, but I wouldn't exclude duels from kill counter. Duels are the only safe way to prevent someone from getting teamed/healed. As well as ganked while engaged. I would be upset to fight someone down to 25% only for someone to outside heal them or someone outside jump in mid battle and get credit for my kill.

[Cyberleet]

The reason I don't like PvP is because when a NPC kills me it doesn't start stroking its own epeen and sending me "hahaha you suck f*g" tells.

NPC's calls you 'amateur' and stuff. Use the ignore-feature or share your tells

The game started on both pvp and pvm btw. Equally as valid and imo you should be rewarded for just logging in to pvp.

[Traderjill]

Jill,
The system is based on 1v1 pvp. The person that delivers the killing blow get the kill and the reward. Just like in MOBA's. So in a team or not it would work the same.

I've never played a MOBA so I have no idea how they work, that's why I was asking

I guess it is ok for solo pvp (not sure about the killing blow thing) though my experience with AO just leads me to believe that it will change the environment of PvP to something worse than it is now.

Is there any MOBA element that could be carried over that would help inspire team pvp as well?

[Lheann]

Duels are the only safe way to prevent someone from getting teamed/healed.

Its PVP. If you want grand reward then there must be grand risk. I took the MOBA format because kill stealing and outside support is part of the format. If you can't take someone down quick then there should be risk associated with that. Thus the kill can be stolen or the player can be healed. Likewise someone might jump in and save a friend but steal the kill. They saved you and thus preserved your title but you did not get the kill or VP. What is more important to you.

I am all about balance and Reward must have Risk.

As for duels? Well duel system overrides a lot of PVP checks to allow org mates to fight in 100% gas. I just think for simplicity sake of development excluding duels would be faster. Also takes a farming path away.

[Traderjill]

Another question (sorry if this is covered.. read your post twice Lheann): Does killing someone (anyone) automatically increase your streak count or do you have to kill someone at your Title level or higher?

[Cyberleet]

Always thought it would be cool with a duel-tournament event-system that worked like the old titlesystem.

Pvp in AO is 'street fighting' which is the more classic pvp. Then there is wars, battlestation, duels and tara. And halloween!

[Lheann]

Is there any MOBA element that could be carried over that would help inspire team pvp as well?

Yeah the team of 200's taking down a solo 220 with 20 kills and massive reward for the killer.
Check out League of Legends for the format I based off of. Basically a tower war has an objective of take the field or battle station is cap and win objective. These support the team fight aspect but reward the killer for their kill shot. I guess we could implement an assist count since last pvp death and have reward for assisting on a kill if it came down to it. Though I am not so supportive of that at this point. Maybe have the assist reward be based on doing at least 25% of the damage and be equal to 20% of the kill reward.

As for the the killing blow getting the reward? Before the current team format scoring was introduced AO PVP was exactly like that. So it would not be a new thing for AO.

As for killing question:
Killing anyone in your PVP range raises the streak counter as long as it meets the rules I laid out in first post.