Monthly Development Update - September 2014

[Psikie]

There's no game without sufficient incentive.

So, until BS, NW or will to fight or Tir/Omni arena have some better incentives.... they will stay as empty as they have been recently.

Hmm kinda like Tara has incentives right? How is that working out atm?

Give people a reason to go there and they will, I can't believe that such a simple concept is so difficult for you to comprehend and that you keep thinking people pvp with no goal set.

So Tara kinda hit or miss right? Because one side controls it? Or because the people that "want pvp" so badly already have gotten the incentives from there? Just curious.

PvP been as much an integral part of AO as pvm since beta. Thats a fact that will remain.

Uhm not true. There were only certain circumstances you could actually pvp originally. Either flagged by guards, in arena, or political zones. Pvp has evolved with the story line over time. Initially it was not ever considered to be a big part of the the game. It was AFTER notum wars did more pvp options became available.

Hell neutrals could not even initiate attacks back then, they could only defend themselves if attacked. A lot has changed since then.

[Pafpuf]

So Tara kinda hit or miss right? Because one side controls it? Or because the people that "want pvp" so badly already have gotten the incentives from there? Just curious.

Why bother fighting over it when you can just buy the most sought after items anyway lol. The only "incentive" in controlling tara is bragging rights basically.

[Psikie]

Why bother fighting over it when you can just buy the most sought after items anyway lol. The only "incentive" in controlling tara is bragging rights basically.

What do you think would happen with "rewards" in BS lol? Same thing if they were worth fighting over, just one group would power rush and sell lootrights on nodrops.

[Tryptophy]

The surest incentive is something in which everyone who participates benefits to some degree. It is easier to find teams for Inf because everyone gets the reward at the end and in fact nobody wants to roll with less than a full team because that only hurts the sk/hr. Only a few people get to loot per Tara raid, not everyone gets to plant towers, contracts are only important in very limited circumstances. Incentives are critical but they have to be designed properly. Taking away the 3x daily reward showed everyone that VP is not enough of an incentive to sit through a round of BS, as a matter of fact.

Right now you can pull a daily to kill Tara, but it is only one, it's on a timer you don't control, and if you lose the fight you go without your xp for the day. Someone would have to figure out a scheme so that even the losers gain some reward, to a man, but not as great a reward as the winners. I'm not great at thinking up such things, but maybe tabbing a target that spawns only when Tara is up somewhere near the box would complete a daily reward that is added to, not in place of, the 3x BS rewards.

I'm not sure how to create incentives for participating in NW even if you're sure to lose. Tagging towers was a bad attempt at that, I think.

[Pafpuf]

What do you think would happen with "rewards" in BS lol? Same thing if they were worth fighting over, just one group would power rush and sell lootrights on nodrops.

Except you can't loot a vendor machine or quest rewards. For example they could sell nodrop lead bots that when used in a simple tradeskill process would turn yesdrop. Then people who prefer pvp could farm the same item via pvp instead of alien raids. It's not quantum physics people.

[Raggy]

Except you can't loot a vendor machine or quest rewards. For example they could sell nodrop lead bots that when used in a simple tradeskill process would turn yesdrop. Then people who prefer pvp could farm the same item via pvp instead of alien raids. It's not quantum physics people.

This would be exploited so much.

[Traderjill]

Except you can't loot a vendor machine or quest rewards. For example they could sell nodrop lead bots that when used in a simple tradeskill process would turn yesdrop. Then people who prefer pvp could farm the same item via pvp instead of alien raids. It's not quantum physics people.

I don't think you should be able to farm the same gear via PvP as in PvM. I think the real incentive comes from obtaining something via PvP that you can't get via PvM. Maybe some OP Huds/Utils/Bracers/Rings that have an extra deflect boost or on-use action. Another option is adding some items that can be added to Penultimate Ofab to give it more of X skill. I'm sure someone better than me can come up with a suggested list but I think something only obtainable via PvP is closer to the answer than being able to buy AI bots.

I was close to suggesting a PvP armor line similar to what they do in WoW but this isn't WoW and I think the unique way that we equip items would make that too much of a change. Accessories, however, are a different thing.

[doctorgore]

Add pads to the ofab shops for profs that don't have them. Add some new rings, belts, huds and utilities. Seriously just add more viable items people will go out and farm them at least. Add social pvp armor with rank req. That would be a start at least.

[Psikie]

I would be tempted to do more BS if the battle kits were usable outside of BS.

[Pafpuf]

This would be exploited so much.

So is everything else in AO if you want to except this gives people options. May be difficult to imagine but not everyone is a sploiter, some of us wouldn't do that and could have genuine fun while farming instead of killing a retarded mob for the thousandth time.

Besides for every sploit there's a measure to prevent it. You're too quick to jump to conclusions on something that hasn't even been discussed in detail.

I don't think you should be able to farm the same gear via PvP as in PvM. I think the real incentive comes from obtaining something via PvP that you can't get via PvM. Maybe some OP Huds/Utils/Bracers/Rings that have an extra deflect boost or on-use action. Another option is adding some items that can be added to Penultimate Ofab to give it more of X skill. I'm sure someone better than me can come up with a suggested list but I think something only obtainable via PvP is closer to the answer than being able to buy AI bots.

That's why I said "for example".

[Cratertina]

Give BS reserch cap xp. So 20 rounds done, one researchcompleted. Loosing side gets. Points/500 Research cap xp. That would make it very interesting in my eyes and fits lore, since research is a LE invention. Then make it so top tier research can only be done with BS xp.

Edit:Research only not regular.

[Traderjill]

That's why I said "for example".

Just for clarity's sake, I understood it was an example but it was one I didn't agree with so I built upon your suggestion with something that I thought made a bit more sense (to me). That's usually how these back and forth dialogs go on the forums ya know

I've agreed with most of what you've said on this topic tbh, I think this has been a pretty healthy discussion and hope that Michi's reading it and taking note.

Edit: Just as an afterthought: I don't necessarily have an issue with PvPers obtaining their armor from PvP only. I get what you mean in that maybe they rather farm "Some PvP activity" rather than farm "Some PvM activity". So transforming your AI bot idea a bit... instead of viralbots, maybe the player is instead able to purchase completed NoDrop Shop Buyable pieces directly from the vendor.

[Pafpuf]

Give BS reserch cap xp. So 20 rounds done, one researchcompleted. Loosing side gets. Points/500 Research cap xp. That would make it very interesting in my eyes and fits lore, since research is a LE invention. Then make it so top tier research can only be done with BS xp.

Edit:Research only not regular.

Or they could put hecklers inside that respawn in 1 minute woooot!

The point is pvp should attract endgame characters, not just levelers ffs.

[Psikie]

some of us wouldn't do that and could have genuine fun while farming instead of killing a retarded mob for the thousandth time.

Its a lot more "fun" killing the same greenie pvm player a thousand times I suppose.

Look the reward and incentive for doing BS is the triple daily rewards and VPs. WTF more do you want? A mandatory BS visit for every player to pass a title lvl cap?

Seriously... BS is or was fun for YOU, no amount of tricksey dangling carrots are going to get you a full 2 hours worth of play time there. It is NOT FUN for the avg player that is what you do not grasp. The avg player is your target market to get more population, and they do not..let me repeat DO NOT like getting farmed by pvp twinks. It's not quantum physics Paf.

You want to get the avg player more involved to increase BS population start thinking like them and not like a pvp assassin gank machine. What would make it more fun for the avg player? Because that is the only way you are going to INCREASE and KEEP a more active BS population.

[Traderjill]

Look the reward and incentive for doing BS is the triple daily rewards and VPs. WTF more do you want? A mandatory BS visit for every player to pass a title lvl cap?

You actually present an interesting point that I think Paf was making in response to Cratertina. XP/SK and VP are terrible rewards for finished toons.

Just going to repost something I've said a couple times on the forums before in relation to notum wars and battlestations:

Honestly, I don't see why they don't just change the way tower wars works to eliminate griefing by creating a situation similar to Age of Conan's siege mechanics:


- In order to attack a tower site you have to buy a disabler item from a NPC that allows you to disable a CT. This item costs X battlestation participation points. (BS participation points being a flat value granted to an org based on whether one of its individual members won/loss a round with a scaling based on the BS tier attended).


- Using said disabler item alerts the org/game of an impending attack and there is a grace period of say 15 minutes before any towers on that field can be attacked.


This solution eliminates griefing, promotes battelstations (as you'll need the participation points to attack a field), gives defenders time to gather for a legit defense and prevents people from just coming in and pewpewing towers to be an annoyance then meeping away. Well they can do that still (meep away) but only so much as eventually they'll run out of points to buy more disablers. Couple this with a more reasonable limit on how long CT's are attackable after being disabled and you have something that might work as reasonable tower wars mechanics. But what do I know.

[Psikie]

You actually present an interesting point that I think Paf was making in response to Cratertina. XP/SK and VP are terrible rewards for finished toons.

If I were to be a guessing man, I would say the 3x daily/vp rewards are not meant for endgame toons. They are meant for leveling pvm toons. The idea should be if BS is fun, then by time you get to end game you will already be in the habit of going because it was fun all along the way. That in turn prompts you to do those end game raids, to get more end game gear, to be more competitive etc etc.

The problem is, I will say again it is NOT fun. So all those dozens or hundreds of players that over time COULD have been the end game population for BS are already turned off to the idea before they hit TL6. I believe you actually said it best here...

Even with the 3x daily reward battlestations wasn't running regularly. When that reward was taken away it went from sometimes running to hardly ever running, I suppose. Throwing more xp at the problem without fixing the other issues that cause people to not want to sign up for battlestations is really a waste of effort.

Make it fun and they will come.

[Traderjill]

Make it fun and they will come.

There are a lot of issues with Battlestations that need to be fixed. The game mechanic issues that I was referring to in the post you quoted are completely separate from lack of reward. And the reward issue isn't just about endgame toons.. it is also in regards to twinks that no longer need VP or xp so will also get no reward from participating in battlestations.

Let me give you a PvM example.

Two of the most entertaining instances in game (imo) are Dark Ruins and Collector. Both suffer from the same issue as Battlestations.. lack of reward/incentive. In Dark Ruins you at least get decent xp but Collector suffers from what I consider to be the worst loot table in the game. They have a completely fun instance that has a RNG element that might result in you getting worse than nothing: ToTW loot. As a result, I don't like to do Collector. I don't dislike it because the encounter isn't fun. I have fun every time I've gone. I love getting kicked over the walls. I like kicking in the Collector boss room. I find it to be entertaining regardless of what role I play. And then.. Collector dies, I click on my bronze box and my entire experience feels like it was a waste of time. It wasn't, right? I had fun on the way. but that lack of reward at the end somehow sours my experience.

The entertainment factor from simply participating in an activity will only take you so far in a video game.

[Tryptophy]

Make it fun and they will come.

Seriously, some small changes to mechs would make leveling toons competetive in BS and have it not be a total nightmare for them. Nobody seems to agree with me on this, however

[Pafpuf]

Its a lot more "fun" killing the same greenie pvm player a thousand times I suppose.

/facepalm Why do you think I prefer pvp over pvm ? Because pvp can actually be challenging. I do not expect to fight greenies only, as a matter of fact I did mention several times already that I'm looking for incentive for ENDGAME PLAYERS to participate in pvp.

Look the reward and incentive for doing BS is the triple daily rewards and VPs. WTF more do you want? A mandatory BS visit for every player to pass a title lvl cap?

I can't imagine why any 220/30/70 character would need xp rewards and VPs. What I want is the same thing pvpers want and only pvmers actually get, a reward for my time and effort in an environment that suits my (and a lot of other people's) preferences.

Seriously... BS is or was fun for YOU, no amount of tricksey dangling carrots are going to get you a full 2 hours worth of play time there. It is NOT FUN for the avg player that is what you do not grasp. The avg player is your target market to get more population, and they do not..let me repeat DO NOT like getting farmed by pvp twinks.

The "avg player" should be leveling elsewhere and pvp zones should be designed for people who want to pvp and not those who expect to sit around semi afk for their 3x capped xp reward complaining about how they're getting killed because there's no OST enforcer who can mongo the enemy players away.

You want to get the avg player more involved to increase BS population start thinking like them and not like a pvp assassin gank machine. What would make it more fun for the avg player? Because that is the only way you are going to INCREASE and KEEP a more active BS population.

I don't know if "avg player" is a symbolic word for retard because you sure make it look like that. Why should it be fun for people who don't want to pvp ? It shouldn't, if they prefer pvm they should stick to pvm. It's all about giving people an option to choose between one or the other (or both if they want to). Just because there's a rewarding mission there doesn't mean you have to do it or you'll get cancer.

If you really want your free triple capped xp reward that bad then I suggest that funcom just gives the reward flat out without having to do battlestations. It's not like the missions are any effort whatsoever for the "avg player" and by the looks of it you don't want bs to be active so the poor "avg player" can level their alt without interference from those pesky pvp assassin gank machines who ruin their day by attacking screen pixels who are just sitting there and getting their sought after reward regardless of what happens.

[Samcon]

If all you want to do is load up the battlestation with bodies, put nodrop CC in the shop for excessive amounts of VP. Funcom gets paid by people buying VP, and everyone else gets to farm afk multiboxers loading up the opposing queue with their own alts so they can win. The reward for pvp is winning, and the fun had while doing so. What possible reward would "make" someone play a pvp minigame when they don't want to. AO is a dinosaur where you had to participate in all parts of the game to have all the items that go into a successful character, and it should stay that way. If it changes, will it magically become more appealing to be like the game everyone else is already playing/quit playing? Because those games aren't 13 years old, and do it better. It puts the product in an even worse position by alienating its current user base. The game is bad because LE sucked and they can't take it back. Battlestations shouldn't have been in the game period. Tara loses incentive because competing VP items are near equal/better at endgame, stat bloat makes tower buffs and contracts nearly pointless.

And that statement about the majority of MMORPG players want pvp couldn't be further from the truth, I laugh every time someone says it. Even in a pvp heavy game like this its at best 30-35%, and the hardcore who want only pvp are an even smaller slice of the pie. Just because FPS, MOBAS, etc. are popular doesn't mean MMO players want all pvp all the time. Different games are different. Because Darkfall is super popular rite?