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Thread: Martial Artists have been given enough already! Enough is Enough!

  1. #41
    What I was attempting to get across to you, and evidently failed at doing, was that the tone of this post is not constructive. The reason it isn't constructive is that the initial post, the one where you make your point, does not contain even a crumb of an idea for what you would like to see as an improvement for your profession(s).

    As for what I think is 'fair', actually, in a way, I think I do feel it's fair, from this perspective - if all the things that are being implemented for MAs (or any other profession) were originally planned for their 'fix' or 'love' patch, and they happen to be implemented in a staged fashion (over the course of multiple patches), then yes, I think it's fair. All that means is that FC is completing their planned enhancements.

    It doesn't mean that I don't want other professions fixed. I would hope that if their respective fixes didn't make it into production all at once, the remainder wouldn't be abandoned.

    Also, over the course of my playing this game, one thing I've learned is that what I deem 'fair' has very little influence over what gets done.
    Last edited by Vydas; Oct 21st, 2002 at 23:08:42.

  2. #42
    Originally posted by Vydas
    What I was attempting to get across to you, and evidently failed at doing, was that the tone of this post is not constructive. The reason it isn't constructive is that the initial post, the one where you make your point, does not contain even a crumb of an idea for what you would like to see as an improvement for your profession(s).
    Personally I would be content at this point if they'd just stop taking things away from us.

    I'd be delerious if they actually decided to not nerf something because of our feedback (say, scopes or FFoK) and I'd probably faint if they actually would un-nerf some of the old nerfs (multi-range and the FA 3927 and LLTS drops for example).
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
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    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  3. #43
    Yup, I could go for them un-nerfing trader heals so I could play that character again . There's a change I felt was unfair, and a much loved character I abandoned. It made no difference how I felt about it, though.

  4. #44
    Agree 100% Lucid. Look up any other prof through patch notes and compare. It is sick.

    Funny how MAs start screaming at this thread. This in no way nerfs them. Merely gives some other professions a chance to see the light. And omg, Engineers being the prime example. People in my teams actually tell me hell no if I mention recruiting one.

    You do an admirable job pushing for your profession, but would be nice if you could start thinking objectively Davedread.

    Over 198 MAs over level 175 on RK1. I'll leave it to all of you to see what the figures are for the other profs.

  5. #45
    Originally posted by Peisinoe
    Over 198 MAs over level 175 on RK1. I'll leave it to all of you to see what the figures are for the other profs.
    31 Crats, not including myself (i'm 174)

    35 Engineers.

  6. #46
    rofl now some truth about ma coming
    -------------------------------------
    ma hand by hand weapon = slow or low dmg + lower attack rating about 100 + lost special attack
    again ma weapon is worse than fist
    -------------------------------------
    ma range weapon bow = hmm any one see a 150+ ma use bow as main attack ????+ 14.6 new bow is 100% unreachable like all new nice weapon after 14.4 ( wait and see ) + we lost best alpha bow at 14.6 also .
    --------------------------------------
    ma cirtical a lot , why ??? same question as ask why enf get 12k+ hp hehe.
    --------------------------------------
    ma fear nano as good as enf and cart ?? i am 100% sure u r not a ma. try it then say . it works on demon in pvp but hehe........ try it in missions
    ---------------------------------------
    worst heal nano also 8 sec recharge 250 nano cost 600-1k for the best 1


    well eng and crat is so poor get no love but don't shout ma get too much ........ looks at agent/adv/fixer 's new love( which is actually in game )
    Attention!!!
    Kill ma in pvp will not be looked as farming pvp title
    No dangerous, no exception gogogo

    crats what r u waiting for ?

    171 soldier
    200 ma
    174 NT ( leveling )
    83 doc
    ................

    I am in China now . no AO this month .......

  7. #47
    Originally posted by The World
    ma hand by hand weapon = slow or low dmg + lower attack rating about 100 + lost special attack
    again ma weapon is worse than fist
    Yet, Martial Artists can use both a weapon and the fists at the same time.

    ma range weapon bow = hmm any one see a 150+ ma use bow as main attack ????+ 14.6 new bow is 100% unreachable like all new nice weapon after 14.4 ( wait and see ) + we lost best alpha bow at 14.6 also .
    Yet, I see them use it all the time. In fact, I see them use them for alphas as well. Not only do you get a choice of fists, many MA special attacks, but you get martial arts weapons and bows.... Very nice.

    ma cirtical a lot , why ??? same question as ask why enf get 12k+ hp hehe.
    Health Points do mot many you kill anything any faster. I don't have a problem with MAs specializing in Criticals, I have a hard time with Martial Artists damage output being not just slightly, but dramatically higher then every other professions in the game. If they are supposed to be the masters of damage, then fine, ALL they should have is damage. But now they have all damage and no disadvantage. Don't tell me 8 second recharge on heals is a significant disadvantage.

    [b]ma fear nano as good as enf and cart ?? i am 100% sure u r not a ma. try it then say . it works on demon in pvp but hehe........ try it in missionsB]
    The best Martial Artist fear has the same Psychic check and speed as the best Crat Fear, yet is area of effect and takes less skill to use.

  8. #48

    Re: Funcom: Martial Artists have been given enough already! Enough is Enough!

    Personally, as an MA, I'd like to make two points before I start going through Lucid's original post.

    1) I'd like to see a lot more content for people like Engies. I really would.

    2) I'm sick of hearing people pointing the finger at MAs.

    Originally posted by Lucid Flow
    14.6:

    - Added Martial Artist only Bows (as if their damage output alone wasn't high enough already)
    We get ONE line of bows that only we can use. Joy. They're actually decent, worthwhile bows, in my opinion. Bows in general are becoming better, for everyone, not just MAs. Note that if we equip a bow, we can't use our fists. And, listening to all the complaints on the MA board about these bows, no-one'll use them in PvP due to the equip time, so don't worry about that.

    - Four Fists of Kali is now made Self/Martial Artist only, effectively making Martial Artists a lot better at their skill then any other profession might be (understandable but still in relative terms it pushes downward any other profession who might want to use Martial Arts.)
    Martial Artists actually come closer to being the best at Martial Arts. We're not, but we're closer. Note that we did not ask for this, and there have been wonderings and complaints, from Martial Artists, about this being made self-only. Personally, I'd prefer the description of the nano changed to match the effect, rather than the other way round.

    14.5:
    - Added Small Ebony Figurines for the Martial Artist. While every profession got these, Martial Artist ones are some of the most useful for their profession added to their main skills and to treatment. When compared to Crat figurines. for example, which either use a nano skill we have no use for or add to skills we dont use (Matter Met and Melee Energy) it seems silly.
    I must have missed the glut of these on the market. Mind directing some my way? You can't compare profession-specific stuff if almost no-one has them. If they were more common, I'd accept the argument. If they're 1 in a million, no.

    14.4:

    - Added Area of Effect Fears effectively giving Martial Artists some of the best Crowd Control on the game. Before this, only Crats and Enforcers had single target fears. These both made sense, Enforcers being big and scary and Crats being the masters of crowd control. Why did Martial Artists need fears?
    Not something we asked for, and quite frankly, something I was shocked we got. Check Jayde's DB, look up at the MA fear nanos, and then check the nanos that are actually cast on the mobs. High-resist, and last for a few seconds.

    - Fixed many broken nanos and Special Attacks. Other classes have been asking for fixes for up to 1 year with no change.
    Fixes. Again, I'm all for other classes getting stuff, including their fixes. Sooner, not later.

    - Increased the damage on Parry Sticks and Wall Blades, now along with martial Arts some of the best weapons in the game.
    Not that a huge number of people use them, really. Nice to have, though, we actually get a wider choice of viable weapons. We're not all forced to go fist-only (cookie-cutter anyone?) to have decent damage.

    14.2:

    - Martial Artists Crit buffs were made self only, effectively making them the best damage dealers in the game. Now they can have UVC while other professions are limited to Mark of Peril, which has a 17% Crit chance difference between the 2.
    Not something I can say I was happy about (because I wasn't). But, if Martial Artists are supposed to be the best at damage-over-time (or 2nd best, once NTs' nukes get fixed), then we need to crit. Still, I'll repeat, I wasn't happy about this change.

    - Added Martial Artist suits, some very good armor that any profession would love to have.
    - Added Claws for Martial Artists, some very good weapons that are currently the weapon of choice.
    If they can stand the look They're nice enough, and I'm not complaining. Claws are also nice, if you can afford the Piercing. Something to convince MAs away from their fists. Again, cookie-cutter anyone? Let's stay away from that.


    14.0:

    - Martial Artist fist nanos effectively change their damage type to Energy, Chemical or Fire, the latter 2 being some of the least resisted armor class used in the game today (between Mobs and Players).
    - More fixes to Martial Artists initiatives.
    And no other class is able to find a chem/fire weapon, are they? What's wrong with this? I'm sorry, all I can say is raise your Chem and Fire AC if you're worried.

    And again, fixes (inits). More fixes to all classes, say I.

    13.8:

    - Martial Arts skill above 120 stopped working with any weapon. Now, only Martial Artists with their weapons can effectively punch and use a weapon at the same time.
    No, if you picked up a weapon with Martial Arts as its main weapon skill, and you had high enough Martial Arts, you'd punch and use your weapon at the same time. Can't punch while wielding your assault cannon/rifle/pistol any more? I'm sorry, I just can't sympathize on this one. If Martial arts and Parry Sticks/Wall Blades are such great damage-dealers, you know where to spend the IP.

    13.6:

    - Special Arrows were added to be used with Bow Special Attack. The only profession with Green Bow special is Martial Artists.
    And they're just so useful, too! [sarcasm=off]

    - Fixes to Inits on Martial Artist weapons.
    - Added unique loot for Martial Artists such as the Torturing Tool (one of the best).
    - Martial Arts damage was increased dramatically, effectively making them do the same damage as a slower weapons counterpart yet their attack was still 1/1 at full aggro with no inits.
    - Martial Arts Critical damage was increased dramatically (too much considering how often they crit for).
    - Stun added to brawl.
    - Fixes.
    - Camelot Loot (no complaint about it being cold damage?)
    - Damage increase from the 'bad old days'.
    - Ditto.
    - A stun which benefits people grouped with the MA as much as it does the MA themselves.

    13.4:

    - Destruction Nanos (short term damage buffs) had their nano shutdown of 2 minutes reduced to 15-20 seconds. They also had their nano cost and NCU cost dramatically reduced.
    Which is what is happening to the Enf Challenger line in 14.6. GOOD, I say! More stuff for all!

    Now, a short note on heals. No, they're not that high, and the recharge on them is, last time I checked, quite long. I'm not complaining about having them, and I'm not suggesting they be changed (for the better, they certainly don't need to be made worse, "No nerfs" I say), but they're not as powerful as was impleid previously.

    Lucid, as you said, this stuff has been VITAL fixes and improvements. Most of it, not all, as I've outlined above, and all of this has been IMHO (so I expect some to disagree on things). Now, rather than simply calling for a stop to anything for MAs, I'd like to suggest a more positive approach. Give FunCom so many ideas for the other classes that need it, Engies, Crats, and so forth, good ideas, ideas they could and would implement, that they don't have TIME to put more MA stuff in.

    Wouldn't that be better?

  9. #49
    Posted at the same time, heh

    Originally posted by Lucid Flow


    Yet, Martial Artists can use both a weapon and the fists at the same time.
    So can anyone else who equips an MA weapon and has high enough MA.

    Yet, I see them use it all the time. In fact, I see them use them for alphas as well. Not only do you get a choice of fists, many MA special attacks, but you get martial arts weapons and bows.... Very nice.
    All of which can be done by anyone else who chooses to use Martial arts-type stuff. We can use it easier, sure, but others have other options, options which could be more IP-effective for them than us.



    Health Points do mot many you kill anything any faster. I don't have a problem with MAs specializing in Criticals, I have a hard time with Martial Artists damage output being not just slightly, but dramatically higher then every other professions in the game. If they are supposed to be the masters of damage, then fine, ALL they should have is damage. But now they have all damage and no disadvantage. Don't tell me 8 second recharge on heals is a significant disadvantage.
    It won't matter how much damage we deal if we can't break roots. And as soon as FC gets around to fixing the "self-cast debuff breaks root" thing, then that will be pretty much it for us, just root and run away, unless there's something that lets us break root.



    The best Martial Artist fear has the same Psychic check and speed as the best Crat Fear, yet is area of effect and takes less skill to use.
    And has a much higher Nano Resist check. Go to Jayde's DB, find the fears, then click the click for the single-target nano at the bottom which is what is actually cast on the mobs. Very high NR. Very short duration too. And again, personally I can't see why we got these. Personally (because some MAs might want them) I'd be happy enough without them.

  10. #50
    Heh, yes I'm very well aware of the utter borkedness of checking profession specific items in the databases, I was kinda hoping some people would look at all the MA uber items and go, "uhm, they aint so uber as I thought". They really aren't. We could go all example-happy, but that isn't the point.

    I fully agree that MA's have had a good share of stuff coming their way, and sure I'm biased. Sue me. But I just don't think that the devs have a limited time dedicated to thinking about profession specific things. I don't think that if the devs got an order to "don't give the MA's new things until the other professions have gotten their respective love-patches" would make better engie bots come any faster.

    To me it seems that MA's got their love well spread out, quite unlike the fixer/adv/enforcer clumps of stuff. And hell yeah, of course Engies, NT's, Crats, MP's etc need more fun things. Find any MA that opposes that, I dare ya. Every mail I send to FC I urge for goodies for the professions worse off, in addition to my MA joys and woes. A lot of the discussion on the scope nerf from an MA point of view has been "gawd, that hurts the engies" Stroll over to the MA forums and read some threads there. No sane MA likes FFoK self-only right now, it's a kick in the nut to other MA users, and it's bad bad FC timing.

    Regarding all the MA patches, find me one thing in there that wasn't warranted (the aura fear being the exception, that one came as a complete surprise to pretty much everybody). Broken nanos that were fixed, unimplemented skills that were given some sort of use, MA special attacks that hurt the enemy instead of the user, MA fists and weapons going to the correct init... I simply can't find anything to be ashamed of in those patches. I don't want to be ashamed of being a MA.

    By all means, more love to you right frigging now, but stopping anything interesting from going to MA's aint gonna make it happen any faster.
    /DaveDread (D.A.V.E.D.R.E.A.D.: Digital Artificial Violence and Exploration Device/Replicant Engineered for Assassination and Destruction mohahaha)

    200 Opifex Clanner Gimp - Dinged in Style! (dimached a Virulent Minibull) Finally got my head straight, nothing like a goat helmet to get you in shape again. Oh, and those marks on my forehead (yah, still visible through the helmet, duh)... It was a Motorcycle baby. Really. Ran me over in West Athens while I was working on my tan. Think I look bad? You should see the biker.

  11. #51
    Originally posted by DaveDread
    MA special attacks that hurt the enemy instead of the user
    Apart from all but QL 60 & QL 200 FoL, QL 61-199 FoL still need fixing

  12. #52
    True... hm, cant recall what broken MA specials actually were fixed..?
    /DaveDread (D.A.V.E.D.R.E.A.D.: Digital Artificial Violence and Exploration Device/Replicant Engineered for Assassination and Destruction mohahaha)

    200 Opifex Clanner Gimp - Dinged in Style! (dimached a Virulent Minibull) Finally got my head straight, nothing like a goat helmet to get you in shape again. Oh, and those marks on my forehead (yah, still visible through the helmet, duh)... It was a Motorcycle baby. Really. Ran me over in West Athens while I was working on my tan. Think I look bad? You should see the biker.

  13. #53
    Perhaps that was when the Unique tag was taken off them?

    Could have been some other stuff too, can't remember either.

    Would be nice if they could be used from the Book of Knowledge, but we can live otherwise. More stuff for all! *starts chanting about fixes for other classes*

  14. #54
    Aside from the MA, all other professions can use alot more work. Its time to start looking at other professions than continously improveing the MA while ignoreing the Bureaucrat, Doc, Soldier, Enf, Trader, Engineer, NT and possibly Agent, Adv, Meta-Phy and Fixers. Look at all the professions and ask yourself.

    Can FC's limited resources be better spent improveing OTHER professions instead of the MA again and again for a change?
    Charles 'Kithrak' Houston - Equipment
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  15. #55
    Originally posted by Charles
    Aside from the MA, all other professions can use alot more work. Its time to start looking at other professions than continously improveing the MA while ignoreing the Bureaucrat, Doc, Soldier, Enf, Trader, Engineer, NT and possibly Agent, Adv, Meta-Phy and Fixers. Look at all the professions and ask yourself.

    Can FC's limited resources be better spent improveing OTHER professions instead of the MA again and again for a change?
    Again, all for other professions getting stuff. When can they start?

  16. #56
    Yes but funcom has proven they don't have the resources to be able to provide content and stuff for all profs at once. All the people in this thread are saying is that its about time MAs were ignored for awhile so that some loving can be given to the profs which haven't had something every patch as far back as i can remember.
    engie + ghetto crowd control + no healing + lowest hp + worst evades + bot who is never around. = worst prof in game

    Bump for engie fix

  17. #57
    Which is why they do them in order.

    Pet pathing is at the top of their list of priorities, supposedly, which would be a big boon to Engies, Crats and MPs.

    NTs are getting their special deck-thing to allow better nukes.

    What next then? Getting some good Engi content in would be my first priority. But then, it's up to Funcom what they do next, not me

  18. #58

    Re: Funcom: Martial Artists have been given enough already! Enough is Enough!

    Originally posted by Lucid Flow
    To Funcom:

    Enough is enough! When exactly are you going to consider Martial Artists to be "done?" Literally for the last 10 or so patches they have gotten new toys where other professions such as the Engineer or Crat have literally gotten nothing new to play with. It's starting to become a joke. When will you stop with them and move on to other professions that really need them? Look here.



    The list is probably longer since I know I missed some things. When will it end for them? I know Martial Artists needed love pre-13.4 because they did probably the least damage in the game at the time, but enough is enough and excessive is excessive.

    Start working on other professions who need tweaking like Engineers, Soldiers and Crats. Enough is Enough and i'm getting sick of Martial Artist changes EVERY SINGLE PATCH for the last year.
    Oh right, please state to me which ma asked for FFoK to be fixed and elaborate what advantage it is to ma's.

    Secondly, yes there will be one new bow that is ma only, but also nodrop and probably on a mob in Ian Warrs undefeatable Blood Bat posse. A bow that has no specials and an equip time that will make it suck in pvp anyways, and in pvm I can't see it outdamaging fists.

    On the other hand some of the non complete crap bows will now be 66% rifle skill, meaning about every NON-MA profession will be better at using them than ma's.

    Your arguments are as silly, yes uvc line self only was a COMPARATIVE boost, upping fist damage a boost an sich and the ma suits are nice. Everything else done for ma's were very slight tweaks at best.

    The way you are argueing I could just as well say stop fixing soldiers after all you got a new weapon about every of the last few patches and you get a bunch of new nano's in 14.6. Well, most of them may suck but by your logic that is not important, just the fact that some uber rare item or semi useless stuff is being thrown at a profession seems to be enough to start whining.

    The one point I do agree on in your rambling is that some professions need loving fast... engies and high-level mp's come to mind. What I do not agree on is that you are pointing the finger at some very slight tweaks for the ma profession and pointing a guilty finger at that for not giving other professions love.

    Sorry the things fc did for ma's in most of these patches were minor twinks and fixes. Not massive love patches.

    I agree ma's shouldn't get a massive love patch anytime soon, but stating that making minor (and in a lot of cases even very debatable ones in so far as you can call them a boon to ma's) fixes shouldn't be done anymore is plain silly.
    Last edited by Hayake; Oct 22nd, 2002 at 03:43:18.

  19. #59
    funcom has stated they don't plan on doing any "love" patches for specific proffesions so all that is left to fight for are the little things

    Ohh and you didn't state who wanted FFOK changed and the advantage it provides MAs other then nerfing engies.
    engie + ghetto crowd control + no healing + lowest hp + worst evades + bot who is never around. = worst prof in game

    Bump for engie fix

  20. #60
    Most High level teams move so fast that even with fixed pet pathing I wouldnt use my pet until i got to boss.. By the time i press my /pet attack macro the mob is 1/2 dead from the soldier enforcer in group, add a fixer and NT and its not even really worth my time to do it. Unless FC totally changes the game mechanics there not gonna stop high dmg fast moving teams.

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