18.6.12

[Pafpuf]

In a way you are right, bs is currently more populated by people who aren't perpared for pvp. That's because of poor quest design that encourages people who only need exp from the reward to join. It's supposed to be an area for pvpers but currently the only people that benefit from it are levelers. Few easy tweaks and it can be what it was supposed to be. Funcom however, in their usual fashion, don't really care as they've demonstrated with nerfing bs quests completely instead of tweaking them so people are actually motivated and rewarded for participating in actual pvp.

I'm fine with the losing side being rewarded too, but it has to be less than the winning side.

[Psikie]

the important thing about any aspect of gameplay isn't whether it is 'fun'. I mean how do you even measure that or compare it.

That is the most important aspect is having fun, you measure that by participation. If something isn't fun, people are not going to participate in it. That is a pretty easy standard to measure. People do things that bring them enjoyment, like going to the lake or drinking a beer, or going to an amusement park.

People do not like going to the dentist for root canal even when it is neccessary because it is not fun. Same token people do not go to BS because it is not fun even if it is neccessary for an additional daily reward. Let me chart it for you.

Fun = High particiaption
Not Fun = Low participation

You may not like pvm as much as pvp, but have no choice but to do it to get to where you want to pvp- gear, twink lvl etc. People do not have to do pvp on BS for any reason in game. Instead of trying to force the issue, try to find ways to make it FUN for people to choose to participate in BS not ways to intice people with xp and creds to help you up your pvp title. That is the only suggestion I can make to you. Make it FUN and they will come.

[Pafpuf]

What you're saying is it's fine for people to be forced to pvm but pvp should be "all about fun" with zero reward ? Won't happen, can't happen, doesn't happen. Pvp is "all about fun" in AO as it is, that's why it's so scarce. Do people participate in AO's pvm because it's fun ? No.

You're right in one sense - when you said people don't go to bs because it's not necessary. Exactly, it's a design flaw. It doesn't offer any tangible reward. Look at notum wars for example, people used to participate en masse and for what ? A handful of people would get the bonuses generated by towers, those who don't even get to have towers do it only for a few bot points. And it's not fun whatsoever since a very big percentage of fights are between heavily uneven numbers (worst I've seen is a raid of 90 people going after a team of 5... tell me who's having fun there?).

You don't sound like a pvper at all, if anything your posts make you look like the most zealous pvp hating pvmer I've ever encountered.

[Psikie]

Do people participate in AO's pvm because it's fun ? No.

You don't sound like a pvper at all, if anything your posts make you look like the most zealous pvp hating pvmer I've ever encountered.

That is the biggest crock i've read today lol. First off NO ONE would even play AO at all if it was not fun to pvm for them at some level of consciousness. What would the point of logging on be roflol. I mean did you really say that? More importantly how could you even think that was a reasonable sentence? lol

Second I have at least 1-15 pvp titles between solo/duel/team on the majority of my toons. The ones that only have 1 lvl of title I do not find very fun to pvp with my playstyle such as my NT. I do not find any challenge in double- double-triple. I do enjoy pvp on my MP, sol, and Engi though. fyi

[Emma]

Do people participate in AO's pvm because it's fun ? No.

What to you think AO is? It has always been about PvM, quests, storyline, etc. including notum wars. It has always been about leveling your toon and learning to play your profession as you level.

It is only recently that people pay someone else to level their toon because they only want to to play PvP.

If AO were to change to only PvP ... ie you pick a level and Auto puts you there ... the game would die before you could turn around and check to see if BS was running. A very large portion of the player base is here to play/level their toons. Some like to PvP along the way, others do not.

Emma

[Esssch]

Fun is a subjective thing. You can't say what's fun for others. BS doesn't run often because people prefer the safe (or cowardly) city pvp where they can hide in backyards or meep every second. Take that away and you'll see pvpers in bs.

/afk still works! Bit tougher to get back to the action, though.

[Xootch]

maybe paf. but i think a lot of people do it to show off. thats why they do it bor. pose like a boss, flame people who don't manage to kill you or call out anyone who you did gank with a /l2p n00b. i'm pretty sure that's the driving force of bor pvp. just see herk's post in the flag thread.

but i mean seriously. if people don't join bs because they're scared to die there...you can't help these people, no matter what you do. i intentionally have people zerg me to get rid of drain procs or travel faster. so what? there's no downside to dying in bs.

i can't believe they haven't even bothered to fix afk. i actually didnt know that /afk still works.

[Pafpuf]

What to you think AO is? It has always been about PvM, quests, storyline, etc. including notum wars. It has always been about leveling your toon and learning to play your profession as you level.

Yes, it -has- been about PvM. Just like the paleolithic was about people using rocks as everyday tools. Being limited to one thing doesn't make it a good thing, on the contrary. Hence the word "limited".

It is only recently that people pay someone else to level their toon because they only want to to play PvP.

I don't even know where you were going with this, it doesn't make any sense. People pay to level their chars because... ding ding ding... they think pvm in AO is boring and they wanna save as much time as possible getting to 220. That doesn't mean they want to pvp. I personally have 2 endgame pvm chars not because I like pvm but because currently it's mandatory if I want to be a useful addition to the community.

If AO were to change to only PvP ... ie you pick a level and Auto puts you there ... the game would die before you could turn around and check to see if BS was running. A very large portion of the player base is here to play/level their toons. Some like to PvP along the way, others do not.

If AO's community were to change to reading I wouldn't have to repeat myself 5 times because every zealous pvm poster joins the conversation like they just fell out of the sky and landed in this thread. I never suggested AO became pvp only, I suggested rewards for participating in pvp.
You seem like a very selfish person when you say things like some like to pvp along the way. There are whole orgs in this game devoted to pvp only with players who only log into this game to pvp.

[Pafpuf]

That is the biggest crock i've read today lol. First off NO ONE would even play AO at all if it was not fun to pvm for them at some level of consciousness.

I play AO and I find it's pvm to be the most lackluster of any mmorpg I have played. I'm confident I can say the same for every member of my org, a pvp org. You know, people who play this game to pvp, not to "have fun" killing monsters with AI so bad they barely even fight back.

Riddle me this batman: how often do you think apf 42 would run if acdc and leadbots were removed from the loot table ? How often would people go there to "have fun" ?

Here's some reality for you, people choose to pvm because 1.) it's a hell lot easier play style than pvp 2.) you actually get tangible rewards upon completing a pvm related task. Not because it's fun. If you don't believe me, log in game and look for people camping dyna bosses, starting 12m, making inferno groups, sitting on kite hill etc. and ask them why they're doing it, I'm 110% certain their answer will not be "I'm just having fun".

[Metafizis]

I'm confident I can say the same for every member of my org, a pvp org. ".

)))))))

2 people in a 15 people org dont make it a PvP org.

And guess what, 1 of those skipped org.

[Xootch]

i agree with pafpuf. i just cannot understand how people play ao for pvm. but i think the reason is different. i don't think pvp in ao isnt all that bad. but most people have played this game for 10+ years and well, at some point everything gets boring. its not that the encounters are so bad, its just that most of us have done beast hundreds of times, same with all the other instances. fc could literally pour a line of cocaine from the start to the end of pande, it would still get boring at some point. I am glad they changed mobs there to at least make it less painful (=shorter) but the heart of the problem is that fc loot system evolved around low droprates.

@metfizis: what's with all that open hate? where's the wit and sarcasm you promised? i have to admit, i am a little disappointed.

[Psikie]

Riddle me this batman: how often do you think apf 42 would run if acdc and leadbots were removed from the loot table ? How often would people go there to "have fun" ?

Here's some reality for you, people choose to pvm because 1.) it's a hell lot easier play style than pvp 2.) you actually get tangible rewards upon completing a pvm related task. Not because it's fun.

Well, maybe being rewarded in pvm is fun? That would just make too much common sense though. Unless common sense is not that common.

But since we went down this path, what makes pvp fun for you with no reward? Do you get joy from seeking out the hardest challenge you can find in pvp or sadistically hunt greenies for your own epeen?

[Pafpuf]

Well, maybe being rewarded in pvm is fun? That would just make too much common sense though. Unless common sense is not that common.

Thank you for finally understanding my point. Just like rewards make pvm fun they could make pvp fun as well. That's all there is to it.

[Psikie]

Just like rewards make pvm fun they could make pvp fun as well.

Nice "circle jerk" there lol.

So what you are saying is that giving the same or similar rewards as pvm will start making pvp more fun for those that do not like it now and play pvm only? Hilarious. What you fail to address is those that pvp NOW, do it because they like it and consider it fun with no reward other than epeen titles. Those that do not pvp now, do not do it because they do not consider it fun.

But if you don't think vp's are not enough to make it a fun reward and the now gone 3x daily rewards where also not enough to flood the gates I don't know what else you could possibly think to offer lol. If it was just about rewards then BS would have been more packed by the players that did notum miner or tower tag missions instead.

I think logic has eluded you in this debate.

[Pafpuf]

But if you don't think vp's are not enough to make it a fun reward and the now gone 3x daily rewards where also not enough to flood the gates I don't know what else you could possibly think to offer lol..

I have written down good suggestions on what to offer players, more than once actually and in this very topic. But since you've demonstrated time and time again that you don't even read my posts I'm not gonna waste any more of my time on you. Enjoy that tiny box you're living in.

[Psikie]

I have written down good suggestions on what to offer players, more than once actually and in this very topic. But since you've demonstrated time and time again that you don't even read my posts

Maybe you misunderstand, I saw your suggestions and have said "more than once" they are not very good imo. I have also said your suggestions do not overcome the main drawback of BS which is the fact that it is NOT FUN enough to attract more pvm players. Which is what all your suggestions revolve around is getting more participation.

Try to think outside the box for a change, 3x daily rewards were not enough to get massive participation from pvm crowd only the pvp crowd was religious about it. Unless you suggest handing out db bracers or beast loot, rewards are not going to make a difference to the pvm crowd. The mechanics of pvp balance is what's wrong with BS. Capture the flag format is perfect for pvm crowd, stepping out of decon and getting AS capped hits from every prof except enf/keep/shade is a horrible game play debacle. Although all 3 of those profs can substitute capped dimach/sneak attack if they choose. Pvm players in leveling setups don't really stand a chance in those scenerios, they feel like cattle being herded to the slaughter.

It's not fun for pvm crowd is what you don't want to acknowledge.

[nat3s]

they are not very good imo

I've emboldened the important bit. Opinions differ.

Only thing I would add to the debate is Funcom do appear to agree that rewards feel good when attached to PvP as they made the primary means of VP acquisition to be BS PvP.

[Pafpuf]

Only thing I would add to the debate is Funcom do appear to agree that rewards feel good when attached to PvP as they made the primary means of VP acquisition to be BS PvP.

It's motivation 101, nothing will get people participating in certain activity faster than the promise of reward upon completion.

Pvm in AO offers rewards, pvp doesn't. As such AO attracts a much lower crowd than it could. Meaning that at every point the pvm crowd can, and they will because most people are selfish, push the tiny pvp crowd and any of their concerns aside. For anyone who doesn't believe me, check out the latest public poll made by fc in regards what players think AO needs desparately. No surprise, pvm won again. In a game that's both pvm and pvp, in a game where endgame pvp consists of 10 people on each side out of ~500 active subscribers they decide that AO needs more pvm content. Mind = blown.

[Psikie]

in a game where endgame pvp consists of 10 people on each side out of ~500 active subscribers they decide that AO needs more pvm content. Mind = blown.

Majority rules sorry. That's democracy.

I have seen hundreds if not thousands of posts about pvp participation over the years. The most successfull participation efforts I have seen were usually started by individuals in some form of rp or player driven announcement.

[Pafpuf]

Lol.