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Thread: The Economy isn't Broken

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Novagen View Post
    snip
    We do need credit sinks, but I don't think they should be useful. I would fear that your idea might increase the wealth gap.

    If my minor thinking item is in the Crypt of Home, at least I know I can beg, whore, and harass someone to camp it for me, and that later, I can farm it myself for profit.

    Placing it in a shop vendor reduces the incentive to do both, since one would be essentially just asking for credits.

    It might be interesting to offer high-level twinkling so that endgame PVPers are able to buy them and save IP on abilities and treatment to spend elsewhere, though this prices out a newbie from endgame PVP yet further.

    I'd rather see Jobe Luxes, PMVs, SSC nano chips et c. made available at similar prices to the Orbital/Charon bundle at 989m
    Andrew Phillips
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    Truth is Power

    Clan Envoy of the Omni Organisation Committee
    Reporter for the Omni-Tek Press Corp

  2. #82
    I do believe that a credit sink needs to be useful for people to actually spend credits on them, and it also needs to be something they want to get more than once.
    As new credits are generated constantly some also needs to be removed. Not all of them, as new characters also are created, but some must go to keep inflation down.

    I agree that the shops shouldn't be the only source of items, but they could be a complement that rich people can use, and others can get them the normal way. When enough credits have been drained from the game the vendors will be obsolete as they will be too expensive.

    Giving the twinking cans a slightly better boost (perhaps one point more) shouldn't give anyone a too great advantage, but I might be very wrong here, I'm not that informed on twinking.
    Last edited by Novagen; May 20th, 2014 at 19:39:18.
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  3. #83
    grandpa, you confuse being able to have AI armor to being able to play the game and have fun.
    With a highly inflated economy, noobs are able to sell simple services for much much more and thus have a way easier time with the game. Blitzable nanos go for up to 20m in the GMI allowing anyone to put in some time and have the credits to fund shop implants, nanos and what not.

    The game is easier with an inflated economy than a deflated one.

    This ad hominem is more out of amusement than to attack ur position, but you remind me of a lot of what is wrong with the politics of the world today: people overly passionate with illogical and destructive ideas. I honestly hope you spend your energies more here and not in the RL.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by semisentient View Post
    The game is easier with an inflated economy than a deflated one.
    yup, for those with the credits, lol!

    At the end of a game's life, sploiters and hackers take over and squeeze out whatever they can, because they know nobody cares about enforcing anything anymore.
    Meanwhile the few honest players left are in denial. Sad but not the first time it happens.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
    snip
    If I had many CC/CSS and many credits I would buy all the CC/CSS I could so that my rares are worth more, and list some of my armour on the marketplace, adding more as they sell.

    We see this, for example, with Candletrade's CM initiative. His goal is to inflate QL300 CM to 500m per piece, and has accordingly purchased in partnership a large quantity of armour, adding to his personal stock, and re-listing at his wanted price.

    It doesn't make sense to sit on Combined, Symbiants, Rare Nanos, et c. because when demand is great enough more workers will generate more of those items, and Tara loot is generated at a constant rate.

    Hoarding is only effective with genuine or presumed rares, such as desirable holiday items e.g. Re-Fitted Backpack, Wicked Tights, Anniversary Gift, Aspect of the Quabbit, and to a lesser extent Collector-only loot and Halloween rares, which people like Polko deal in.

    There exists a discrepancy, as McKnuckle reaffirmed, between the generated credits and price inflation.

    It's possible that a secret stash is being kept secret so as not to attract liquidation (for example in the hands of credit sellers who parcel out small amounts), that the stash was mostly eliminated with a portion flowing into the market, or that those who possess such quantities are apathetic or incompetent and are only buying what they need.

    We can return to newbies. And no. A newbie has no unquestionable right to purchase soul fragments, symbiants, and rollable, dyna, and SL chest nanos.

    There's an amount of conflation here of different kinds of progress barriers.

    There are some items which one needs in order to be accepted by the community as someone who has acceptable equipment.

    There is another set of items entirely that is required for someone to self-sufficiently gain acceptable equipment.

    Then there are items which are necessary for efficient solo-ing, high-tier tradeskilling, and competitive PVP.

    They aren't all the same thing.

    Newbies are not locked out of the opportunity to roll nanos appropriate to their level, kill cyborgs and mantises for soul fragments, and obtain patterns for pocket-bosses.

    That's how these items arise. That's where they come from in the game. That's the system. This is why I keep referring to the system.

    The line of reasoning you employ seems to lead to support for VTEs and symbiants and nanos being purchasable from vendors, since you think newbies have an inalienable right to obtain them easily and cheaply. But you don't say it in that way, which confuses me.
    Andrew Phillips
    Omni-Reform
    Truth is Power

    Clan Envoy of the Omni Organisation Committee
    Reporter for the Omni-Tek Press Corp

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    yup, for those with the credits, lol!

    At the end of a game's life, sploiters and hackers take over and squeeze out whatever they can, because they know nobody cares about enforcing anything anymore.
    Meanwhile the few honest players left are in denial. Sad but not the first time it happens.

    Not quite. Really wish people would just use reasoning and common sense, but alas let me spell it out for you conspiracy theorists and alarmist nuts:

    when the economy is inflated, the amount someone has to work to get shop items decreases (i think everyone agrees here no need to go into the mechanics). for Non shop sold items, the amount someone has to work is the same as before inflation

    It does NOT matter how it got inflated, so stop acting like we are missing the point with HOWEVER more credit got infused in the game at some point. Let me give you a simple example, you want to get a ga2, and you are able to blitz mochams to sell for credits. lets say at low inflation, ga2 cost 5m, and mochams sell for 200k. you'd have to blitz 25 times. At higher inflation, ga2 costs 50m and mochams sell for 2m and you still blitz 25 times. The market is still based on effort of acquiring items. nothing has changed.

    So in an inflated economy the effort required for noobs is lower overall. If you are just hyper jealous because some people got lots of credits and you didn't that is a different matter, but please don't mix up the issues.

    The game economy is working, it is not broken.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by semisentient View Post
    Snip
    I agree absolutely, of course, with all your economic points. It is a succinct explanation. I would challenge the need for name-calling, however.

    Much as Grandpa accused apologists of willful ignorance, it can be easy to feel that that's necessarily true in reverse: that those who don't get it are being willfully blind. I don't think that's true either.

    It's interesting to discuss and speculate the state of the in-game economy.

    Splitting off into "People who don't have common sense" vs "Marketeers profiting from exploits" isn't fun.
    Andrew Phillips
    Omni-Reform
    Truth is Power

    Clan Envoy of the Omni Organisation Committee
    Reporter for the Omni-Tek Press Corp

  8. #88
    The only credit sinks I see being valid are for FC to expand the nodrop market at ridiculous prices.

    Ie. 25B for an ACDC.

    10B for BoC

    etc.

    The reasoning is simple: People who want to farm whatever nodrops and sell lootrights can go ahead, but, they will always be dependent on buyers to sell that lootright, so they MUST offer competitive prices. FC on the other hand never has to worry about that so they can offer highest end equipment at a supreme premium because, somewhat obviously, it's not the medium range or even high end players who have too much credits.... it's the super super rich players. And if anyone is going to afford an item like that, you might as well suck a buttload of credits out of the system in one go that way.


    If it were up to me, I would implement a FC run auctionhouse, where ever week or every day a superpremium item was auctioned, and the item starts at a SUPER high price, but gradually drops, until someone buys it.

    People with lots of cash will be tempted to buy it at an exceedingly high price in order to get it before other super rich players can, this method rewards players with oodles of cash, BUT also takes out the greatest amounts of free (i.e. liquid) credits most quickly.

    Even in a week or so, you'd find that the total number of credits in the system would be dropping quickly.

    The trick of course would be to offer items that don't confer particularly game breaking advantages, (ie. high end social stuff, or, items that can be gotten only via some hard core raiding etc.)

    Some items I would CERTIANLY be interested in are stuff like:

    sinew of tarasque
    Lust pistols
    ACDC
    QL 300 VTS
    QL 200 ELLTS
    Specs
    QL 200 gurgling river sprite
    BoC
    RBP, IGOC
    DB3 helmet/bracer/utils etc.
    300 Lya Sangi Parts etc.


    It's obviously not going to hurt the game to have items added which are available to everyone, but to introduce nodrop items to suck massive amounts of credits from game won't hurt anyone either. So for me the obvious solution (once the tap is turned off) is to suck BIG credits from game quickly from the biggest stores, by offering premium items at ludicrous prices which obviously some people will jump at once the price becomes what they can afford for the convenience of not having to work for it.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by semisentient View Post
    This ad hominem is more out of amusement than to attack ur position, but you remind me of a lot of what is wrong with the politics of the world today: people overly passionate with illogical and destructive ideas. I honestly hope you spend your energies more here and not in the RL.
    That's nice that you are so concerned about me.

    But remember that question I've asked you before:
    How does counter-fitting, money laundering and extortion fit into your capitalistic model?

    Well, since you evaded to answer it, I will take this as your answer:
    Quote Originally Posted by semisentient View Post
    So in an inflated economy the effort required for noobs is lower overall.
    Right.
    Newbies should thank the exploiters for making the game easier.
    They should thank FC for failing to correct the damage.
    In fact, if we have more exploits, things would get even better and, surely, we would get scores of new players as a result.

    You are horribly wrong of course, but at least you are honest.
    Quote Originally Posted by semisentient View Post
    If you are just hyper jealous because some people got lots of credits and you didn't that is a different matter, but please don't mix up the issues.
    Wanting exploited credits and items removed from the game and purpetrators punished is not an unreasonable expectation, nor is it jealousy.
    But the concept of fair play must be very foreign to you, perhaps that's why you feel threatened by it?

    Well, I cannot fix character issues, you have to work on that yourself.
    I have nothing to hide, but I value my privacy!
    I'm not on facebook, twitter or any other social media.
    I will never reveal my in-game characters or organizations on a public forum.
    If that upsets all the virtual exhibitionists, so be it!

  10. #90
    You don't have to be so deprecating there Grandpa.

    To make a point you don't need to insist on character flaws either. That's just being hypercritical without any necessity.

    Like it's fine to have an argument, but you can do so without attempting to undermine your opponent...

    sheesh.

  11. #91
    Let me respond to this part first, the other part of your post will take a little longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Encyros View Post
    We can return to newbies. And no. A newbie has no unquestionable right to purchase soul fragments, symbiants, and rollable, dyna, and SL chest nanos.
    Of course a newbie doesn't have a "right" to any of those things and I've never claimed that.
    I also never claimed that VTE's should be store-buyable, I don't know where you get that idea from?

    However, if a newbie purchases a subscription, he is entitled to a reasonable expectation of progression and toon development, as well as fair play in the game.
    If these expectations are not met, he will (and should!) quit.

    Perhaps FC can include this disclaimer with the NPE:

    1) Don't expect to buy the most basic items, tradeskills or buffs, necessary for your advancement - you won't have the credits.
    2) Don't expect to ever have a fraction of the wealth of other players.
    3) Don't expect to attain endgame gear for years to come, if ever.
    4) As stated in 1), 2) and 3), don't expect to be competitive in PVP for years to come, if ever.
    5) Don't expect to find teams for anything but Inf missions or Ely hecks. LFT is dead 12h a day.
    5a) As a bonus, we are adding mandatory inspect as a gear check to make it even harder for you to find teams.
    6) Don't expect fair play. FC will not correct exploit damage or punish the offenders.
    7) But multi-boxing in pvp is ok - http://www.autohotkey.com/

    If someone still starts a paid account, more power to him.
    At least he cannot say he wasn't warned.
    I have nothing to hide, but I value my privacy!
    I'm not on facebook, twitter or any other social media.
    I will never reveal my in-game characters or organizations on a public forum.
    If that upsets all the virtual exhibitionists, so be it!

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
    That's nice that you are so concerned about me.

    But remember that question I've asked you before:
    How does counter-fitting, money laundering and extortion fit into your capitalistic model?

    Well, since you evaded to answer it, I will take this as your answer:

    Right.
    Newbies should thank the exploiters for making the game easier.
    They should thank FC for failing to correct the damage.
    In fact, if we have more exploits, things would get even better and, surely, we would get scores of new players as a result.

    You are horribly wrong of course, but at least you are honest.


    Wanting exploited credits and items removed from the game and purpetrators punished is not an unreasonable expectation, nor is it jealousy.
    But the concept of fair play must be very foreign to you, perhaps that's why you feel threatened by it?

    Well, I cannot fix character issues, you have to work on that yourself.
    The thread is about whether the economy is broken. It is not. And my response was to you or others wanting crazy deflation in order to 'fix' something that is not broken, which I frankly don't really care about (because the stupidity of it is so obvious there is no possibility of it happening) except the ignorance of which was so astounding I thought i'd try to explain it so you can see it. but I guess I have failed.

    And I have explained how any past exploits are moot points in the current economy. If it is the cause of the inflation, it still doesn't matter. The economy works still, theres just more currency in the system. (that is not the same as condoning cheating or exploits)

    anyway i can see u r not here to have a discussion.

    so carry on please.

  13. #93
    Encyros, let's clarify two things first:

    1. We are dealing with an inflation of credits AND valuable items.
    As you know, both go hand-in-hand because of the nature of that glitch.

    2. We are talking about 2 different economies here.
    In-game economy and out-of-game economy, but both affect one another.
    The newbies, you (I hope) and me are part of the in-game economy.
    Egpal, Mook and their suppliers are part of the out-of-game economy.

    It is EASIER to hoard valuable items:
    One single froob can hold thousands of them, but each froob can only hold 5B credits.

    It is SAFER to hoard valuable items:
    If FC ever intervenes, it would be much easier and faster to nerf credits then to go through thousands of froob banks and remove loads of AI armor etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by Encyros View Post
    It doesn't make sense to sit on Combined, Symbiants, Rare Nanos, et c. because when demand is great enough more workers will generate more of those items, and Tara loot is generated at a constant rate.
    Let's just talk about AI armor.
    In-game economy:
    If you had a bank full of it, you would only need to sell one set to have enough credits for a very long time.
    So why sell everything at once? You would a) get a diminished return with each set and b) would be forced to store all those credits somewhere.

    Out-of-game economy:
    (same assumption as above)
    Your buyer would give you less and less real money for both credits and AI armor.
    Hence, you cannot fence the loot all at once, you would have to do it in stages to maximize the yield.

    Bottomline, a seller would not benefit in-game or out-of-game if he/she decides to sell everything they have exploited.
    Hence, it's a cancer not an apocalypse - and it's here to stay unless FC gets their act together.
    I have nothing to hide, but I value my privacy!
    I'm not on facebook, twitter or any other social media.
    I will never reveal my in-game characters or organizations on a public forum.
    If that upsets all the virtual exhibitionists, so be it!

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by semisentient View Post
    when the economy is inflated, the amount someone has to work to get shop items decreases (i think everyone agrees here no need to go into the mechanics). for Non shop sold items, the amount someone has to work is the same as before inflation
    Please clarify because it sounds like you're saying a pearl farmer today and one five years ago are on the same footing - that each can buy the same (shop or non-shop) item by spending the same amount of time farming.

    Since shop prices don't change items purchased therein are subject to zero inflation and so the same amount of effort is required as before, not less as you propose.

    The price of non-shop items has risen significantly, and so the example pearl farmer cannot simply do the same amount of farming as before and expect to buy the same item. Inflation equates to reduced purchasing power, neither an increased nor balanced purchasing power as you have proposed.

    Of course, as Encryos points out, this is all academic. An in-game economy, borked or otherwise, cannot hope to be modeled with real-world theory. I work for my employer, and they pay me money; but they didn't create that money out of nowhere. They got it from someone else, who got it from someone else, etc.
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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by semisentient View Post
    The thread is about whether the economy is broken. It is not. And my response was to you or others wanting crazy deflation in order to 'fix' something that is not broken, which I frankly don't really care about (because the stupidity of it is so obvious there is no possibility of it happening) except the ignorance of which was so astounding I thought i'd try to explain it so you can see it. but I guess I have failed.

    And I have explained how any past exploits are moot points in the current economy. If it is the cause of the inflation, it still doesn't matter. The economy works still, theres just more currency in the system. (that is not the same as condoning cheating or exploits)

    anyway i can see u r not here to have a discussion.

    so carry on please.
    Yes, yes, all the Drug Cartels agree with you.
    Economy is not broken, supply and demand works just as advertised, hurrah for capitalism!

    I believe more credits and AI armor were generated via the glitch then the game has ever produced by natural means in its 13 years of existence.
    (If it were not for the forum rules, I could support that with hard facts and mathematical models too).

    If an economy, real or virtual, is largely based on illegality or gross injustice, it might not be broken in a technical sense, but it is certainly broken in a moral sense!
    Otherwise, we would still have slavery, feudalism, child labor or usury today. Once upon a time, those economies used to work just fine too.
    Last edited by Grandpa; May 21st, 2014 at 06:44:24.
    I have nothing to hide, but I value my privacy!
    I'm not on facebook, twitter or any other social media.
    I will never reveal my in-game characters or organizations on a public forum.
    If that upsets all the virtual exhibitionists, so be it!

  16. #96
    How can a froob keep 5b ?

  17. #97
    3.9999 in the org bank, 1 normal
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  18. #98

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post
    Perhaps FC can include this disclaimer with the NPE:
    5a) As a bonus, we are adding mandatory inspect as a gear check to make it even harder for you to find teams.
    .
    What a GREAT idea. Does anyone think that FC is actually trying to kill this game?

    It must be the WOW players influencing that bone head move. Players should be less gear centric in AO. Greedy gear hounds was one of the big reasons I quit WOW. Got sick and tired of people chasing purple pixels and complaining to me about not getting all the best gear.

  19. #99
    The rich are trading only amongst themselves. They have priced everyone else out. If you want to "fix" the economy you have to take it into your own hands. Offer the same services at a reasonable price. The lack of population has created monopolies on services, they can price what the super wealthy are willing to pay to get the most for their time investment. That is what has raised the barrier for market participants, both new and returning.
    Its not about broken, its about having a barrier so high it seems impossible to reach.

  20. #100
    Ok kids. for the last time, the high prices are not raising the barrier. it only makes the new player experience easier. You want that AI armor? it looks more expensive but the effort to get it is still the same, because for your same effort you can make more credits in the economy.

    first of all, I am FOR introducing sinks and what not. But what you fail to see is that it benefits those with a lot of credits and is BAD for new players. With deflation and newer sinks, it makes credits MORE valuable so who benefits? yes you are right the 'drug dealers'

    And which part of explaining the folly of your suggestions equates to condoning past exploiters? you don't fix some immoral injustice by ruining a working economy. you don't fix slavery by causing deflation u fix it by abolishing slavery. please think about that analogy and how it does not lead to solutions some of you are suggesting.

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