The Economy isn't Broken

[Wyoming]

The market should steady itself against intelligent merchants, not fools who splash some money around because it makes them feel good. The mere presence of money does not mean the economy is broken.

Reduce all credits floating around by 90%. Once.

/thread

[Anonimofied]

The economic problematic we are discussing here is only one part of the whole, and it is related to many other issues.

The economy in AO was build up during the blooming time were there was high population. Today the population is lower, but the high volume of currency that has been build up, still remains in the system.

AO have more complex issues which results it destiny in the current status that we see today. But all the issues we see, are related to each other.
To understand what causes this spiral of destruction, we must go to the bottom and back to the basics, and study both what made AO fun, and what made AO boring.

[Nomad]

Anarchy Online was a great game, but nothing happened in ages. Most players got bored and left. Those who still play, have everything in game, but made a game of their own, Banking Online, this is what keeps Anarchy going. I see that its annoying for the couple who try to enjoy the actual game, but you are a decade too late.

[Anarrina]

There is a significant amount of references to exploits in this thread. Please refrain from making such references so the thread made continue.

[Anonimofied]

I think FC have tried to fix many things throughout the years and they can fix issues for 10 years, but to us it seems like they haven't fixed anything. Because what they have fixed is not the main issue, but only effects on the surface caused by the main issue beneath.

AO can be compared to any lifeforms like human, animals, plants, micro organism, bacteria, virus, cells etc. Because all lifeforms needs resources to survives.
AO is dying because death is a break down process where the organism shuts down internal parts due to lacks of resources (Funcom departments moving, reorganizing to reduce costs, server shut down, etc are process of break down).
Resources contains energy that the organism needs to functions and expanding normally.
Death is simply when the organism, or mechanism dont have capability to receives energy to maintain normal functionality.

This is a normal process of living/dying, beginning/ending, etc.
It is the faith of all living thing. The only way to bypass this is creating new beginnings, but keeping the old AO spirits.

[Encyros]

The only way to bypass this [...] is creating [...] order.

We Bring Order: Omni-Tek

[Stillian]

This is a normal process of living/dying, begining/ending, order/dissorder etc.
It is a law that all lifeforms must obey. The only way to bypass this law is creating new lifeforms, new begnings, new order.

I swear drugs were not that good even 18 months ago.

[Anonimofied]

I swear drugs were not that good even 18 months ago.

Im not sure what you mean by this, did you used drugs 18 months ago? Please be more specific. What drugs did you used?
Because sugar was categorize as drugs long ago, it makes people addictive and it is bad for the health.
Nowdays we see people eating sugar, drinking sugar everywhere like it is nothing.

However i have updated my previous post. Hopefully it is easier now to understand my point of view.

[Stillian]

Im not sure what you mean by this, did you used drugs 18 months ago? Please be more specific. What drugs did you used?
Because sugar was categorize as drugs long ago, it makes people addictive and it is bad for the health.
Nowdays we see people eating sugar, drinking sugar everywhere like it is nothing.

However i have updated my previous post. Hopefully it is easier now to understand my point of view.

Apologies, I did actually understand what you meant, you just have very eloquent language.

[Herkulease]

Id like to see the game start with a set number of credits.


And never move past, or below that.


Many of those credits could be found on monsters originally, and through various measure find their way back to monsters.

But essentially, no currency would be added or taken away. Just the same sum of creds passed around.


A player would start with 0 credits. And would actually have to earn them. Prices would be much lower as a result.

And players could save up large amount of money.

However, if they went afk for a year or more, their credits would start to leech back into the mobs of the game. Eventually dwindling to nothing.

I think it would limit some of the retarded numbers we see today.

[Encyros]

through various measure

Could you explain the proposal in more detail?

[semisentient]

Id like to see the game start with a set number of credits.


And never move past, or below that.

ignoring the fact that this would require a major overhaul and development so it is not even a practical possibility, it is just a terrible idea in terms of economics.

it is important to understand that for a good functioning economy, you want neither hyperinflation nor hyperdeflation. Just going to the opposite extreme in reaction to inflation is as bad if not worse. In an economy with a constant supply of money, you will have severe deflation. the playerbase will continually increase the supply of items without a corresponding increase in overall money. As prices always drop, there is heavy incentive to hoard credits as they continually increase in purchasing power.
and you will have a situation where there is basically no economy and it will be much much worse for new players compared to an inflationary economy.

this illustrates a fundamental problem with democratic societies, especially in those which ignoramuses with no understanding of economics get elected and proceed to implement popular but completely destructive economic policies. reading these forums, if AO development was democratic and based on player input, it would be a complete disaster of a game that is basically unplayable.

[Grandpa]

ignoring the fact that this would require a major overhaul and development so it is not even a practical possibility, it is just a terrible idea in terms of economics.

it is important to understand that for a good functioning economy, you want neither hyperinflation nor hyperdeflation. Just going to the opposite extreme in reaction to inflation is as bad if not worse. In an economy with a constant supply of money, you will have severe deflation. the playerbase will continually increase the supply of items without a corresponding increase in overall money. As prices always drop, there is heavy incentive to hoard credits as they continually increase in purchasing power.
and you will have a situation where there is basically no economy and it will be much much worse for new players compared to an inflationary economy.

this illustrates a fundamental problem with democratic societies, especially in those which ignoramuses with no understanding of economics get elected and proceed to implement popular but completely destructive economic policies. reading these forums, if AO development was democratic and based on player input, it would be a complete disaster of a game that is basically unplayable.

Ignoramus, indeed!
How does counter-fitting, money laundering and extortion fit into your capitalistic model?

The term "economics" doesn't apply to AO anymore.
Forget AI armor - prices of many basic and necessary items, such as nanos, have increased by up to 1000%.
Yet game-generated credits have remained practically unchanged since the ingot nerf 10 years ago.

Hence, new players have been priced out of the game.
Forget the NPE, forget the new engine - if this is not fixed, FC won't get any new customers.

[Encyros]

snip

Game generated credits should enable one to purchase game-vendor items. One is indeed so enabled in AO.

There's a solution to not being able to yet obtain a nano that's 60 levels above your character because they're too squish.

Level up by doing dailies (which provide a level per mission below 100, and a level per 2 missions below 150), until one can do it easily.

Not being bothered to do content is not an excuse to whine.

[Grandpa]

Game generated credits should enable one to purchase game-vendor items. One is indeed so enabled in AO.

There's a solution to not being able to yet obtain a nano that's 60 levels above your character because they're too squish.

Level up by doing dailies (which provide a level per mission below 100, and a level per 2 missions below 150), until one can do it easily.

Not being bothered to do content is not an excuse to whine.

Ah well, one cannot reason with willful ignorance.

If you are not part of the solution, you (and others) are part of the problem:

You want to continue to profit from the damage the exploiters have done and FC's incompetence to contain them.
If that all happens at the expense of new players, and ultimately the whole game, is irrelevant to you.

THAT is why you, and others here, oppose to drastic measures, nothing else.

So just be honest and spare us all that pseudo-economic babble - don't worry, FC is with you, they won't do a thing.

[Anonimofied]

it is important to understand that for a good functioning economy, you want neither hyperinflation nor hyperdeflation. Just going to the opposite extreme in reaction to inflation is as bad if not worse.

I agree, it is bad to fix hyperinflation with hyperdeflation, in the real world. Because this will make it harder to people who have debts, and pays interests to the lender.
But in virtual world if you loan 1 mil, you pays back 1 mil. Deflation process in virtual world will effects everyone with the same amount of percentage.
The correct way for FC to fix hyperinflation in this case is with micro-deflation, at a certain title level. So new beginners and low levels wont feel its effect, then stops the process when the economy is balanced.

However, like i mentioned before. The economic problem we are discussing here is only a bi-effect of the fundamental issue, and it is the real issue that needs to be fixed, unless we want to waste time.

[Encyros]

Snip

I'm not intending to ignore what you're saying; with my replies I aim to address the points you raised in your previous comment as far as my understanding allows.

Printing of money hurts most those with a lot of money. Traders are more affected by depreciation in the strength of the currency than farmers or blitzers or tradeskillers. The blitzer and the farmer and the tradeskiller retain the value of their work, which is a commodity. The trader, whose resource is currency, sees it depreciated.

The reason economic apocalypse hasn't actually happened is because people who purchase credits tend to be those who are financially inept and unable to manipulate their credits on the market to their full potential. Instead they blow their funds on what they need, and the funds dissolve into the market, causing general inflation.

There is no willful blindness toward what has happened.

One is not being facetious in pointing out that, while credits to the tune of thousands and even millions of times the net worth of the average veteran player were generated, inflation has only been to the tune of two to four times for expensive items, and five to ten times for cheaper items (excluding Halloween 'rares' et c.)

Explanations exist, such as the above, as to why this is the case, and I find it more didactic to consider them.

Those, if any, who retain trillions or quadrillions of credits, are either economically incompetent, or fear discovery from putting those funds out for show for example, buying all the rare items from the GMS.

FC is clearly not totally impotent. This fear, or stupidity, keeps the truly excess funds in check. Without that vestige of security, we would all see what economic collapse really means.

The OP contends as a subject for discussion that what remains to the rest of us is an inflated but functional economy.

It is certainly not intended to dissuade players from suggesting economic amendments, merely to encourage that such amendments be well-thought-out.

To borrow some of your cynicism, it's not entirely credible to believe that we on this side thought that if we did not speak out, FC would listen to the community and make sweeping economic changes.

This is merely due to my being irked by the casual and dismissive "Oh and the economy is broken too of course" that is always flung without much further thought.

Yes. Quadrillions of credits were created. Yes. Expensive items have inflated, in large part as a result. They have not inflated proportionately at all. Instead of just moving on after realising this, and just being angry at everything and everyone, I genuinely think it's more interesting to try to understand why what's happening is happening, instead of writing it off as "Oh they're all evil so who cares why it is the way it is"

[McKnuckleSamwich]

intelligence

Good post. shows understanding of the current situation without mentioning potentially bannable topics etc.

I agree with a lot of your observations. The question I have that's been burning me for some time is whether the 'store'; the nearly infinite sum of unconverted credits has been neutralised.

Because if it has... then credit drains are a valid method of slowly removing credits from the economy, if not, then any effort to regulate the economy will only hurt those who play by the rules, and empower those who do not.

Personally, my method is to commoditize instead of hoard credits and retain only items I need in order to function. I want the LEAST exposure to the market as necessary.

[Grandpa]

I'm not intending to ignore what you're saying; with my replies I aim to address the points you raised in your previous comment as far as my understanding allows.

Let's clarify a few things first:

Nobody wants some communist redistribution of wealth or hand the newbies everything on a silver platter.
Certainly, I don't want an easy game!
I.e. it upsets me to no end that people can get AI30 with 100 AI kills, after we had to kill thousands of bugs over a span of YEARS to get there.
Ridiculous!

But we don't want the game to die either, or do we?
New accounts have an incredible uphill battle in AO as it is, they don't need to content with a fraudulent economy on top that.

And this is also where we disagree the most:
You believe that a self-regulating market will correct everything, but if we lose a few people along the way, that's ok too.
In the 6 months since I've returned, I met exactly one person who converted recently from Froob to Paid - and I have not seen him again since April.
We cannot afford losing anyone anymore, especially not if it's preventable!

Look, I really don't care if someone has to spend many billions on some duped CC, Pioneers, RBPs or whatnot.
But do you really think that a 1000% price increase on nanos, soul fragments, low symbiants, and countless other lowbie necessities will have no effect on new players?

FC is clearly not totally impotent. This fear, or stupidity, keeps the truly excess funds in check. Without that vestige of security, we would all see what economic collapse really means.

I'm tippy-toeing on the forums because I fear our moderator, but nobody fears FC!
Not the players selling the credits, not the gold spammers, and not the players buying the credits.
If it were any different, we wouldn't be spammed 24/7 in colored fonts on all channels.

Those, if any, who retain trillions or quadrillions of credits, are either economically incompetent, or fear discovery from putting those funds out for show for example, buying all the rare items from the GMS.

First of all, those who have trillions also have every single valuable item in the game on all toons and a bunch of extras in the banks.
As you know, credits were only one part of that glitch, and we won't even address any of the other glitches here.

So what would you do if your supply vastly exceeds the demands?
Would you dump everything on the market and make prices plummet, giving you less and less in return?

No, of course not! You sit on your goods until demand rises again.
We are not experiencing economic incompetence at all, quite the contrary.
Keep in mind, some people are making REAL MONEY of this entire disaster and they want to continue to make REAL MONEY!

So, there will be no "Economic Apocalypse", but an "Economic Cancer" that will slowly eat the game if left uncorrected.

[Novagen]

I believe that one way to get the economy in order is to add new shop buyable consumables, perhaps new twinking nano cans.
These should give a decent buff, in my opinion slightly better than currently available nanos, so that there is an incentive for people to buy them.

Many tradeskill items could also be removed from the loot tables and made available in shops, this would drain credits from the game instead of just adding more.

I also think that prices in shops should increase at a steeper rate when quality levels go up, this should make sure those who can pay do so, while still allowing low level characters to buy the stuff they need.


Just my two cents on fixing the economy.