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Thread: The Economy isn't Broken

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    ROFL!!!
    dude, first you say whoever wants the economy fixed is hyper-jealous of the sploiters, then you make up a bunch of bull how the sploiters made AO better for noobs.
    Now you think you get trolled when someone says you are one of them?
    Really???
    so in another words you can't make the simple distinction

  2. #122
    * Link prices for buying/selling to npc and mission rewards to game inflation.

    It will end up adding a lil more cash in the economy, but will only be like peeing in the ocean due to fc's total mismanagement of the money cheating that occurred in the past.

    - it will devaluate a little the value of money flowing around... which is totally fair since it's really monkey money anyway due to cheating and totally unfair to newbs.
    - it will allow newbs to buy stuff from other players more easily, since their increase in inflow of cash will be way greater than the inflation resulting from that added cash.

    How to calculate inflation?
    Easy:
    - record a starting price on a bucket of goods sold by players
    - compare the prices of a moment, such as every month/4 months, whatever, with the recorded prices and you have your ratio.

    Then, just multiply shop etc prices by that ratio.

    * I would advocate dividing by 5 the amount of money hold by all toons with over 200M to their name, but that will probably end up in drama... although it shouldn't, since such money isn't used to buy from shops but from players so there wouldn't really be any sting. Maybe good communication is the key here.
    [edit] ok, this need to be refined, because you can't end up with more money if you started with less .
    [edit2] only the money over the decided cap would be divided
    Last edited by schloops; May 31st, 2014 at 18:41:14.
    There are no problem that an absence of solution could'nt solve

    Wielder of the "IWin" button.

  3. #123
    Such a system fixes current prices as baseline prices.

    i.e. If the item basket prices drop, your system ensures that the items do not become more affordable to the shopfooder who wants to buy from players.
    Last edited by Encyros; May 31st, 2014 at 16:13:18.
    Andrew Phillips
    Omni-Reform
    Truth is Power

    Clan Envoy of the Omni Organisation Committee
    Reporter for the Omni-Tek Press Corp

  4. #124
    Oh no, as I said, the recorded prices don't need to be the current ones. Would make no sense to use the current ones. Ok, maybe it wasn't clear.
    Last edited by schloops; May 31st, 2014 at 18:36:19.
    There are no problem that an absence of solution could'nt solve

    Wielder of the "IWin" button.

  5. #125
    Man this thread is as dumb the first one. All you people are so wrong!

    Cheats running the market, bazillion creds, banks full of AI, gold spammers, funcom does zippo?
    Old news, know that for a year. Economy is a joke now, but so what?
    All this talk about poor poor noobs! What noobs we got none! Quit wasting walls of text on that.
    And credit sinks don't do squat. How do you sink quadrillions, do the math people, not gonna happen.

    Omg fair play! Its a MMO not chess, nobody cares.
    If economy hurts your morals, don't do it or quit. If you got no problems with it knock yourself out.
    Funcon doesn't give a crap what you do, so if you cant beat them, join them. semisentinnt got that one right.
    All this whining won't do nothing just play the damn game!
    R.I.P. Arvandor 2005
    R.I.P. Oyat 2007
    R.I.P. Okanuke 2008

  6. #126
    If cheats are running the market they're not doing it very well.
    Andrew Phillips
    Omni-Reform
    Truth is Power

    Clan Envoy of the Omni Organisation Committee
    Reporter for the Omni-Tek Press Corp

  7. #127
    Not everybody enjoys self-pity more than discussing solutions to problems.

    There are noobs and there are lowbies just now. With some luck (plenty?), we may get a lil surge when engine hits live, if it comes with some promotion or comes with steam client.
    There are no problem that an absence of solution could'nt solve

    Wielder of the "IWin" button.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by schloops View Post
    Not everybody enjoys self-pity more than discussing solutions to problems.
    Yes, being concerned about the game isn't whining and fair play in a game isn't an unreasonable expectation.

    Ok, let's beat the dead horse one more time:

    First, notice the difference between player generated credits and game generated credits.
    Player generated credits are existing credits that change hands between players (GMI, lootright sales, tips, etc.)
    Game generated credits are actually newly minted credits by AO itself.
    ONLY game generated credits are important to this discussion!

    Maximum number of glitched credits per incident:
    18000000000000000000 = 1.8E19 credits (confirmed)

    Lifetime of AO (in days)
    365Days X 13Years = 4754 Days


    Game generated credits come from:
    - credits looted from NPC remains
    - credits awarded from quests and missions
    - credits from loot sales to shops

    Estimate:
    If AO generates 100B/day then the game has generated 4.745E14 credits in its entire lifetime, hence
    100B credits / 1000 Players = 100M credits per player, per day.

    Notice, this is a VERY high estimate!
    1. I don't think 1000 players play this game on a daily basis anymore.
    2. I don't think the game is generating anywhere near 100B credits a day
    Since 2001, I certainly haven't made 100M credits per day, every day, from game generated sources.

    So, how long would it take AO to generate the amount of glitched credits from just ONE incident?
    100B per day * 365 days = 3.65E13 credits per year
    1.8E19 / 3.65E13 = 493151 years

    So in about 500000 years, AO will have generated as many credits as ONE glitched incident has generated in 5 minutes.
    (We know there were many incidents, not just one)

    I know people will try to discredit my calculations, so lets just put this in prospective right away:
    - If we had 10000 players, the number would be 50000 years.
    - If the game generates a trillion credits a day, the number would be 50000 years
    - If we had 100000 players AND the game generates 10 trillion credits a day, the number would still be 50 years!

    Don't forget, each glitch ALSO generated valuable items, such as AI armor, on the other end!
    (I omitted that part for the sake of clarity, but it is of course highly relevant to the discussion).

    So spin it any way you like, it's a fraudulent economy until/unless FC intervenes.
    Last edited by Grandpa; Jun 1st, 2014 at 20:56:04.
    I have nothing to hide, but I value my privacy!
    I'm not on facebook, twitter or any other social media.
    I will never reveal my in-game characters or organizations on a public forum.
    If that upsets all the virtual exhibitionists, so be it!

  9. #129
    Again, I applaud the calculation.

    What I want to know is, why are things so cheap?

    If, as you say, and as I agree, credits up to those figures were generated, why are services, Nanos, and common items only 10x as expensive as they were before?
    Andrew Phillips
    Omni-Reform
    Truth is Power

    Clan Envoy of the Omni Organisation Committee
    Reporter for the Omni-Tek Press Corp

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Encyros View Post
    Again, I applaud the calculation.

    What I want to know is, why are things so cheap?

    If, as you say, and as I agree, credits up to those figures were generated, why are services, Nanos, and common items only 10x as expensive as they were before?
    See, this is a very interesting discussion, and this is something I visited in my discussions in other threads.

    If the inflation of the top money moving item has only increased 10x, then can we say inflation is only 1000%?

    But it isn't actually this, because it's the rate of movement of the items that indicate whether there is too much or too little credits in game.

    Years ago, people would save credits to buy 1 high priced item.

    Now, people save credits to buy a SUIT of high priced items.

    The difference is the amount of credits floating around, available, but not in transit.

    I would argue that the cost of items right now isn't an indication of the inflation, but an indication of the limits on credit transfer. The actual inflation (the number of unused credits in game, NOT credits in circulation) is much much much higher.

    The amount of credits in circulation is indicative of high rates of inflation recently (i.e. the last 6 months), but not high if counted from, say, the introduction of Alien Invasion expansion.

    The reason for this is that inflation was low for several years, and was approximated by the difference between game generated credits and in game credit sinks - the difference was not so large and cities cost a lot to maintain so credits were farmed (not the selling LR type or farming phatz to sell, this was oldschool farming - ingots, gem cutting, etc.).

    The difference between the inflation year on year, or even month on month, say, from AI expansion release to about 2011 was minimal, about 3-5% per year. But, after the EVENT, inflation skyrocketed to about 200% per year, an increase of about 40-50x.

    Now, the cost of items has, to some extent kept up a bit, but more importantly, the valuation on the credit has significantly decreased and that's directly proportional to the amount of credits NOT in circulation.

    At last check I think I had somewhere in the range of 5B credits on my accounts, but, personally, I try very hard to limit my exposure to inflation (i.e. if my credits have 50% the buying power next year as they do this year, I'm only going to hold as little as I can to limit the exposure of that devaluation), instead, I prefer to hold items of worth as they are generally maintained in value. (Value in game is based on utility, not credits. Can you PVP in Spiritual armour? no, then would you rather PVP in combined commandos? then I'll hold on to the CC).

    The problem that we face, that FC faces, isn't lowering the credits in circulation, it's removing the vast stores of credits that are NOT in circulation.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Encyros View Post
    Again, I applaud the calculation.

    What I want to know is, why are things so cheap?

    If, as you say, and as I agree, credits up to those figures were generated, why are services, Nanos, and common items only 10x as expensive as they were before?
    Encyros, our disagreement in this thread really boils down to this:
    Since we are not seeing the enormous inflation that one would expect from the numbers, you believe we are out of the woods and have left the exploits behind.
    My point has been that this fraudulent economy isn't going away anytime soon because people are hoarding the glitched goods and credits.

    So, there is no easy, 100% correct answer to your question, but let me tell you a quick story:

    When I came back to AO end of last year, I was positively shocked what had happened to the game while I was gone.
    I ran into an old friend and he updated me on the events. I'll try to recreate that conversation:

    Me: "What happened here? Why is everything so expensive and why are people spamming WTS 300 CC/CCS all day long?"
    Friend: "Lol, you missed out on a lot of stuff! "
    Me: "What do you mean?"
    Friend: "<explained the glitches>"
    Me: "WTH? FC didn't do anything to stop it?"
    Friend: "Well, eventually they fixed the glitches, but we got to kept everything.
    I have so many goodies and credits, I don't know where to store everything! Btw, if you need anything, let me know."
    Me: "Well, good for you, but that really sucks for the game."
    Friend: "Yeah, it was a lot of fun, but now it's kind of a letdown.
    I got everything for all my alts, nothing to do and nothing to buy anymore. I don't think I'll resub when it runs out."

    Yes, I realize that my story isn't real evidence, just anecdotal.
    The moral is that once you got everything, you don't need to participate in the economy (or the game) anymore.
    But the credits are still there and the items are still there.
    They are just dormant for now, tugged away in org banks and on froobs for future use.


    Alternatively, some convert everything into real money by selling to 3rd parties, which in turn sell it to credit-strapped players again.
    Of course, this has to be done slowly, so prices don't drop too much and profits remain high.
    It's undeniable that at least some people are going that route.
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    See, this is a very interesting discussion, and this is something I visited in my discussions in other threads.
    That was a very thoughtful analysis, well done!
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    The problem that we face, that FC faces, isn't lowering the credits in circulation, it's removing the vast stores of credits that are NOT in circulation.
    You are absolutely correct!
    FC has to go after the "vaults" and eliminate the glitched credits/items some people are hoarding.
    I have nothing to hide, but I value my privacy!
    I'm not on facebook, twitter or any other social media.
    I will never reveal my in-game characters or organizations on a public forum.
    If that upsets all the virtual exhibitionists, so be it!

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