Are MK shields too strong in PvP? No nerfs... Alternative options can be implemented

[______________Yazule]

Originally posted by MSag
Yazule: You point out what you think is imbalances, but its obvious you dont know much about agents. You dont realize what it requires to summon a demon at 135.

Fact is:
- Agents nano skills cap at around 500 until 150.
- If you specialize you can get about 2 above 600 with ql 200 implants (shiny or faded + bright nanoclusters in each). All 6 nano skills have their shiny slot in head, means you cant get all 3 in more than 1 skill.
- Demons require 860ish mc and t&s
- Getting that requires you to go trader 30min then plunder and divest right before it wears off
- Then you can summon it right after FP trader wear out and if you can get infuse or mochams on before they wear out.
- Cant root while in FP:MP
- Demon wears out at about same time FP:MP wears out, wont be able to resummon
- Patch message when they removed agent ability to summon engineer shells specifically stated MP pets were only pets agents would have access to.
- Agents can max have buffs from 2 professions at same time realistically, without outside help. How often do you get buffs from other professions before you PvP? I think most PvP'ers just ask ppl and get them anyways, I would.
- Agent weapons kinda suck at higher levels. A mausser is more powerful than a stigma rifle. A vektor shotgun is way more powerful than both those.

I dont mind if they make it so that plunder and divest (and only those) wears out when FP:Trader wears out. Solves that problem, I dont even bother doing it its to much hassle. To be able to just go FP:MP cast and summon demons without outside help or above trick probably require lvl 190+ and specialized implants if at all possible (I'm not even sure it is).

Seems FC is gonna comply to your wish anyways, then its getting hard to find reasons to play the profession. Then agents are just lousy soldier wannabes who can buff.

yes I know that I am relatively ignorant of HOW agents do what they do, never said it was easy, but it IS garunteed to win all pvp fights.

Many MA's wait a half an hour between kills for dimach to recycle too btw just to point out that agents are not the only ones with massive time constraints.

Actually the deamon is just the icing on the cake, it is the healer pets that define the imbalance to start with. I have fought the same agent using meta pets since he could only cast a grey healing pet and we found that we were very well balanced WITHOUT the pet and he was killable with the pet but only about 1 in 10.

The problem that I see is that the combat classes (Agent, Enforcer, Solja, MA) should all have a decent chance of winning a fight against another. Otherwise it is too unbalanced for pvp. I played UO for years and they still dont have the mage/warriror ballance down. It is a tough road, and I dont advocate nerfing, but things like the old MK shield needed it, and meta pets now. The reason for this is how exactly do you intend to beef up the other classes to compete with that? hmm, you cant without upsetting pvm massively.

Thank you for your informative post Msag, I am more than willing to civily discuss the situation with anyone that has a higher intelect than the name calling that *someone* on the boards seems to need to resort to in order to try to look like he can win an argument.

I am sorry that you dont agree with my meta pets opinion, I do think that agents have gotten the most nerfing in the game, but in all honesty they were virtually unbeatable in pvp (still are actually if it is a smart agent). I dont think that it is a reasonable thing. I wish they could just beef up the other classes to fix this, but honestly I dont see how they could. If you have any suggestions I am all ears.

Is FP and concealment still messed up?

[garpenlov]

Originally posted by Yazule

The problem that I see is that the combat classes (Agent, Enforcer, Solja, MA)

I disagree with your evaluation of the Agent as a combat class. You should have adventurer in there instead. Adventurer has aqua body dev, lots and lots of cheap weapon skills, damage shields/healing nanos/morphs that add to damage; Agent has dark blue body dev and 0 green weapon skills (not counting sneak attack... is there a weapon that's 100% sneak attack? so I can sneak up behind people and backstab them? I wish).

Is that a fair test for a quick way of testing whether or not a class is a "combat class"? Because I'm not sure what you mean by combat class... everyone can kill everyone else, in different ways.

You may say, "agents can do massive rifle damage, so they're a combat class." NT nukes/MP pets/Engi bots can do massive damage, but does that make them combat classes?

Agents are more of a in-between profession: ok nanoskills, ok combat skills (your choice of weapon types is fairly limited, though) -- and the ability (almost) to use any nanoformula in the game. -That- is (and should be IMHO) the defining characteristic of the agent; crazy rifle damage and insane sneak powers are side effects of having access to all these nanoformulas.

I do think that agents have gotten the most nerfing in the game, but in all honesty they were virtually unbeatable in pvp (still are actually if it is a smart agent)

So, you have to be smart to do well with an agent?

Isn't that a big enough handicap as-is?

Is FP and concealment still messed up?

I would think so, yes (re: concealment). I get spotted by grey A-500s three times in a row, then I snuck past a mission full of deep red Anun Shredders. I used to think that the way concealment worked was making some sense, and was consistent -- fixers were almost always the ones that spotted me. Made sense. I knew to avoid people wearing bright green armor with SMGs.

Then I got spotted by some gray robots.. Argh, do they have super robot sensing powers? Maybe so.


So, a thread about MK shield being overpowered turns into "Agents should not have MP pets." Are people complaining because the Agent casts a bigger pet than an MP of the comparable level? No, that's died down. Instead, people get mad because an Agent can have a grey healing pet. Sooo... I think tonight I'll bust out Valentyia as FP:MP expires, then go FP:Soldier, slap on that MK shield and own everyone I see.

[___________fancycrat]

anyone who makes any complaint about the soldier being to powerfull is either an idiot, or a complete n00b

soldiers suck in pvp my NON twinked enforcer at lvl 73 can take down a twinked 97 solder. trust me we have 4 rematches, i won em all, then i lvled and put implants in, ( yes twinkage) and then it wasent even funny

if anything the Mirror shiled shod reflect back .. not like it used to but more then 1-5 damage

comon peeps, the soldiers are so screwed all they are is a big walking cannon, leave em alone already
i feel sorry for em, hell i killed mine,

leave the soldiers alone you whiney agent

[__________Daemonicus]

Originally posted by Iceman109
anyone who makes any complaint about the soldier being to powerfull is either an idiot, or a complete n00b

soldiers suck in pvp my NON twinked enforcer at lvl 73 can take down a twinked 97 solder. trust me we have 4 rematches, i won em all, then i lvled and put implants in, ( yes twinkage) and then it wasent even funny

if anything the Mirror shiled shod reflect back .. not like it used to but more then 1-5 damage

comon peeps, the soldiers are so screwed all they are is a big walking cannon, leave em alone already
i feel sorry for em, hell i killed mine,

leave the soldiers alone you whiney agent

Im not trying to nerf Soldier you whiny enforcer. Im trying to prevent them from being nerfed. Fine lets say I just go away.. I can probably garuntee from 2-3 months from now or sooner Funcom will slap a nerf on Mirror shield.. too many are complaining. I came here to save Soldier.. but I get flames by the ignorant. Oh well.

[Myga]

Yazule:

I dont PvP, but what I hear from agents who do is that agents dont do well anymore. I dont see how enforcers cant outdamage the healing capability of the pet I use at 128, restite. Thats 300-500 heal every 8-10sec. If I go pvp I would expect 1/3 of my hp go every attack by opponent, at least the specials.

What I hear from other agents is that its generally better to not use FP and instead use roots. And that FP:MP agents get beaten by rooters without to much trouble, basically root agent and pet then kill pet then agent. Of course this dont work for enforcers.

But PvP is essentially flawed now. Capping damage you can take to a percentage of total hp is simply insane. Take a doc with 600hp, thats 0 points in body dev and no token/implants giving health and a doc buffed to 5000hp same lvl. None can do more than 600*0.4 = 240dmg per hit on the 600hp doc. 480dmg on 2 hits, he can heal that easy. The 5000hp doc can get wacked for 2000hp each hit, alot harder to heal against. I'll agree you wont find any doc with that low hp but its a extreme example to prove the insaneness of capping damage relative to hp. The more hp you have the less effect healing nanos etc will have relative to total hp, you not guarranteed to do better by having more hp. Same as their proposed overequip nerf, its insane: you can get punished for using a better weapon because of debuffs which already today are very powerful.

As for concealment, its in pretty bad shape because of bugs with ruse and concealment devices. You'll also get spotted by any mob even greys randomly no matter how high concealment you have. Concealment devices are bugged so you cant reconceal in about 50% of the cases if you pick a lock, have to camp out if you can, or more commonly get squashed by some bad guy. Doors are often locked in higher dungeons . Ruse is bugged makes you so tiny you fall through floor and get stuck alot of places, other places your movement speed falls toward 0. I mostly run missions today, and anybody can do that. If you have decent evades and armor mobs usually dont hit for more than 400 in a lvl 200 mission, with the occasional 1.6k+ crits. But you can more often than not run through a room without getting hit once, just need some runspeed, worked well for me with 400. Of course this usually wont get you all the way but there are a bunch of tricks that I dont feel like posting here.

As for FP its messed up in sense of cast time and nano penalty, we cant cast any nanos in battle with FP or AP. So MP pets are really our only way of surviving, since they dont require in battle casting. I never use attack pets. Theoretically you can use ql 200 recompiler and maxed nano init with mimic at lvl 150+ to get your nano init a bit above 0 at lvl 150+ but what I heard is that its still to slow and fumble alot.

Reason I react to ppl spreading false information about agents on these forums, is that I believe none at funcom play a higher level agent. So I fear they listen to ppl complaining about agents running around with demons and nerf MP pets without really knowing the consequences or the profession. If they had a higher agent player how could they let the ruse 2 and 3 bug go past test server?