Meeping

[Roscoe]

6) Meeping during a fight is not an issue, meeping before players can fight back is. Just as players who use conceal to get a surprise attack are not complained about, the same applies to fixers who meep while actively engaged in a fight. What people do not want to see anymore is fixers disappearing after using an alpha which can potentially kill a player.

Isn't that a bit contradictory? If the fixer uses an alpha surely they were in a fight.

My input to this discussion is that Shades concealing and perma stunning 2 sec CH draining Alpha someone should be nerfed.

And also NT x200 Damage insta splats.

And Agent FP Doc sneak up and UBT nerf plox.

Oh, and Enfo MR init debuff perk alpha splat nerf too.

tks

Plox sell up to ql 300 Sheild Disablers

[Wyoming]

So, Roscoe, I'm just gonna point a few things out:

1) Shade perma stunning is avoidable. Easily. MOTR.
2) NT's SNBS has a 20min lockout, iirc
3) UBT is hardly dangerous at TL7. Just a minor inconvenience.
4) MR Ganking isn't restricted to just Enfos. It also involves Fixers.

Now, 1 and 4 are also aspects of Fixers, who can stun the target too. NT's don't have Aimed Shot, or Full Auto; they needed an equal to the MR alpha which all the other classes get to use to a massive advantage.

And Agent FP Doc? THAT needs a nerf?

[Leetlover]

Leetlover you need a serious reality check. You talk about AO PVP as if it is some chaotic, no-rules, no-restrictions PVP fest that should allow anything to happen regardless of what should be fair and balanced.

No, I don't.

Reality check, AO is a video game,

duh...

it involves people playing together not actually being involved in real strife and conflict.

It also involves playing against eachother in a virtual/ingame strife and conflict.

Only certain areas and certain situations allow for PVP,

Most areas allow for pvp as a matter of fact. It's not so many 100%-zones.

and people seek out these situations to engage in the "fun" of fighting other players.

Not gonna talk on behalf of others, but many seek out those situations to engage in diferent forms of player vs player interactions. Playing vs a profession or a side.

Others thinks it fun to engage in 3vs1 ganking, warfare or terrorism.

Each 2 their own.

Your notions of PVP are completely bizarre in this thread and others, the things you use to compare are not even close, and when you do get close you end up comparing to things no one wants.

Examples?

1) AO is not a 0% suppression gas in all areas PVP game. Until it is, AO is bound by rules and restrictions and PVP is situational and therefore requires active participation rather than being forced upon players. Your assertion that AO is wild and chaotic is nonsense because you cannot force players to flag and fight.

Flag up. It's pretty wild and chaotic.

And I think it is good that we have a system where people can avoid pvp or get it on demand.

The title of the game is not a point of argument for debates.

I think it is.

2) Forcing players to flag via their AOE abilities in PVE content and then proceeding to kill them is bannable.

What did I type to make you write that? Are you making up things again?

Again, this goes against your notion of "anything goes in war" with PVP. There are rules, there are things you can and cannot do.

yes, and?

3) Comparing meeping to backyard hopping is like comparing domestic violence to aggravated assault.

why?

No one wants backyard hopping and PVPers have argued against this forever.

pvp'ers have always done BY-hopping. pvp has always happened near evac-zones.

you need to get your facts sorted. I'm stating facts here.

Your argument that backyard hopping is the same as meeping is no different than you admitting that meeping is unwanted and detrimental to PVP.

No, it is not. Pvp'ers obviously prefer evac-possibillities. It's a simple fact.

4) All PVP is a competition between players, not just duels.

You may have that opinion, but for many it is not and DEFINTLY not limited that that.

It can f.x be playing your profession vs other players in diferent scenarios or excitement.

You can no longer heal flagged players without being flagged yourself. You can no longer buff flagged players without being flagged yourself.

good!

If PVP was, as you say, not a competition but a war, then why were those last two changes made?

The change was requested by me. It is a good change.

To reply rhetoricly 2 ur question: Are those healing doctors flagging up near a BY?

it was because people participating in PVP without risk was considered unfair.

The vandalising fixer are open to attack just like the doc near a BY.

5) Meeping is the ONLY evac tool.

To this you are just gonna get a big fat LOL!

Calling whompah hopping or BY hopping an evac is a clear sign that you do not know the difference.

It is evacuation. Casting rage and retreating is also an evac. Agent got evac-nanos...

The whompah and BY hopping can be countered as the act of running to the backyard itself is not instant and there are tools to prevent players from reaching these locations.

You can also counter the meeping fixer. It's done fairly often.

And yeah, everyone can pop MOR, AS and click one (1) button to get safe into a BY.

There are also no whompahs or backyards inside tower sites...

You can run safe outside the towersite.

6) Meeping during a fight is not an issue, meeping before players can fight back is.

And running (or stunning some1 2 death) to a BY b4 playings can fight back is not?

Just as players who use conceal to get a surprise attack are not complained about, the same applies to fixers who meep while actively engaged in a fight.

It is a towerwar. Not really street-pvp, duel-pvp or battlestation-pvp.

Griefers just destroy towers and you chase them away.

What people do not want to see anymore is fixers disappearing after using an alpha which can potentially kill a player.

Some people, not all. Totally agree that loosing (or being outsmarted) in pvp sucks.

And because I do not want to see you using the term "war" to define conflicts without rules or regulations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...m/Rules+of+War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

We are 30k years in the future tho.

Omni-Tek and clan has probably broken some conventions as our own irl-warriors has.

Feel free to actually learn more about these things on your own, but these links and the links within them should help you evolve from someone who randomly uses words incorrectly to someone who is more educated on a subject matter.

Yeah, you really got me there! I was wrong all the time! You are so informed. *sarcasm*

PS/ Norwegian warheroes where considered terrorists by law under the nazi-occoupation.

At an extreme stretch of terms you might qualify Clan as terrorists, but neutrals and Omni-Tek as well?

Ingame the rebel clans are considered terrorists and the corporation omni-tek are viewed as oppressors.


Again; What I think matters is that towers gets destroyed and that there is a conflict.

I think you simply have a problem of lack of understanding of terms you use and an oddly strict coherence to things based on nothing more than the titles of things which were established by people who focused on marketing and not accuracy.

Just gonna say 'welcome to ao-pvp' 2 u, kthx

[Roscoe]

So, Roscoe, I'm just gonna point a few things out:

1) Shade perma stunning is avoidable. Easily. MOTR.
2) NT's SNBS has a 20min lockout, iirc
3) UBT is hardly dangerous at TL7. Just a minor inconvenience.
4) MR Ganking isn't restricted to just Enfos. It also involves Fixers.

Now, 1 and 4 are also aspects of Fixers, who can stun the target too. NT's don't have Aimed Shot, or Full Auto; they needed an equal to the MR alpha which all the other classes get to use to a massive advantage.

And Agent FP Doc? THAT needs a nerf?

Your point missed the point of the point that my point was making.

As long as other professions can insta splat someone then leave meeping on sight of dots on maps alone.

Step 1 is to remove AS and 'the alpha'.

[Leetlover]

At least there is pvp-events happening

summat...

Your notions of PVP are completely bizarre in this thread and others, the things you use to compare are not even close, and when you do get close you end up comparing to things no one wants.

Examples?

wait, nvm...you are (again) just resorting to charracterising persons in a negative way.

[SistemError]

Since when the fixer became the black sheep of AO?
Since the server merge and drop in population?
I think so.
All this drama about fixer meep started immediately after the server merge and when some omni change to clan.This way omni became less in number. Being disadvantaged they had to use other methods in war.This days omni own the tara and some TL7 sites and clans are less in numbers or at least not so many interested in war anymore, so now clans are using the same methods in tower war as omni did.
Why are some of you think that if you won a towerfiled then it yours to have and nobody should take it from you not even a piece.That towerfield belong to an organization but every member of that organization own a piece of that site aka towers, if so, why is so many of you against weakening an organization by taking down random towers?
Back in the days when there was 3 servers and many more players nobody cares about fixers meep because there was enough players to fight till the end.
Just because there are not enough players to have a face-to-face fight then we shouldnt have PVP and let those who already have towersites to keep them in peace?
Those towers are to be taken, not to keep them forever and buff you some skills.To be taken piece by piece if other way is not posible.

And for Gatester, man are you joking?” Geneva Conventions” ? “Rules of War”?
Those rules apply only in RL and still they are violated in the name of security by some countries ( U.S.A. ??? ).Here in game there is a story, clans being terrorist and omni as oppressors on a far far away planet.Those rules doesnt apply here.Here clans are trying to win a war by guerrilla tactics, and omni to destroy the clan by any means.

[wonderland]

6) Meeping during a fight is not an issue, meeping before players can fight back is. Just as players who use conceal to get a surprise attack are not complained about, the same applies to fixers who meep while actively engaged in a fight. What people do not want to see anymore is fixers disappearing after using an alpha which can potentially kill a player.

Isn't that a bit contradictory?

No. I'm not saying fixers are overpowered or anything like that, but generally speaking, fixers run low risk to do anything like that, even moreso if they're nanomage.

If the fixer uses an alpha surely they were in a fight.

By what definition of "fight"?

and what about people who aren't flagged gridwarping? I mean, I even used it on my doctor. I told some atrox shade when my gridwarp was 10s until completion over ventrilo when I wasn't flagged, he would blow defensive perks, crap on someone and we'd both get out. You think that's not lame as poop?

If it's a fixer doing the gridwarping, they get the benefit of being able to see most if not everyone in sneak with one outside buff, they don't run any risk of alphaing in front of some concealed person who may kill them.

I don't really have an issue with most of the fixer profession, while I think they're strong, I don't think they break the game or reach overpowered. I just have an issue with super low risk, high reward crap.

My input to this discussion is that Shades concealing and perma stunning 2 sec CH draining Alpha someone should be nerfed.

And also NT x200 Damage insta splats.

And Agent FP Doc sneak up and UBT nerf plox.

Oh, and Enfo MR init debuff perk alpha splat nerf too.

tks

Plox sell up to ql 300 Sheild Disablers

That's cool, but this thread is about instant gridwarp, not about literally any of this.

[Leetlover]

and what about people who aren't flagged gridwarping? I mean, I even used it on my doctor. I told some atrox shade when my gridwarp was 10s until completion over ventrilo when I wasn't flagged, he would blow defensive perks, crap on someone and we'd both get out. You think that's not lame as poop?

imo, they brought streetjustice upon themselfs when they flag in bor. solution: duelroom or battlestation.

[Xootch]

if all the forum qqers were actually ig doing towerwars, there would be no reason to qq in the first place.

[RedWatr]

31 Gatester's on this page!

not good, not good!

Gatester
Gatester
Gatester
Gatester
Gatester
Gatester
Gatester
Gatester

phew, my OCD for even numbers has been satisfied.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Your point missed the point of the point that my point was making.

Someone just got out-internetted.

As long as other professions can insta splat someone then leave meeping on sight of dots on maps alone.

Step 1 is to remove AS and 'the alpha'.

Interesting point.

I would agree to this, if SA was also removed, or had an evade check.

But, you'd need to do some other stuff as well:

1. remove the defensive stance AAD perk (the static ones are fine)
2. remove DOF (limber is fine, and static evades are fine)
3. remove all the SWS from game (probably GA are fine due to low offense as a tradeoff)
4. remove the evades from SL wolf and motherwolf on advy
5. lower the AAD on keeper immi
6. lower the AAD on crat aura

[Humlee]

Tried reading this thread from page 1 to 6, went sour on page 3 so Im not sure if someone already said this.

I think removing the team version of the instant fixer evacing would actually alter the current situation, and wouldnt offend the fixer toolset. As people have mentioned before, a fixer meeping should and is by many viewed as the fixer losing. The big flaw imo and what is custom usage at NW is evacing ur entire team with absolute no drawbacks (the current meep drawback is sorta pointless).

All the posted alternatives to how you can do the same as fixer meeping does by using engis etc, are sorta flawed. Any other evac possiblity have to be pre-planned to work.

Pairing the ultimate get away card with one of the best defenses and strongest alphas is just bonkers.


(I'm no saint, and I use my fixer to its fullest, but that doesnt mean I cant hope for it to change)

[Dudidamage]

I think they should fix the fixer meeping. Make it have a cast time of 30 secs, and that it's easily disrupted.. = Fixers can't just instantly meep whenever they are close to dying.

[Gatester]

6) Meeping during a fight is not an issue, meeping before players can fight back is. Just as players who use conceal to get a surprise attack are not complained about, the same applies to fixers who meep while actively engaged in a fight. What people do not want to see anymore is fixers disappearing after using an alpha which can potentially kill a player.

Isn't that a bit contradictory? If the fixer uses an alpha surely they were in a fight.

My input to this discussion is that Shades concealing and perma stunning 2 sec CH draining Alpha someone should be nerfed.

And also NT x200 Damage insta splats.

And Agent FP Doc sneak up and UBT nerf plox.

Oh, and Enfo MR init debuff perk alpha splat nerf too.

tks

Plox sell up to ql 300 Sheild Disablers

Simply shooting players and not being attacked is not considered a "fight".

I do not quite know how to explain the difference between meeping and actually escaping after a gank without using the terms themselves to describe it. Try looking at it this way, a player who does not have meep still has to get away and a player who can meep will simply meep without ever being vulnerable to a counter attack unless he has no clue what he is doing.

Before comparisons are made again, as if they justify things, standing right outside a backyard entrance, unloading your alpha, then backing up when it fails and waiting 5 minutes is the exact same thing. Although considerably more obvious and generally more vulnerable, the fact is that players are given an option to kill players with little to no risk, when in fact it should be the opposite. In the sense of tower wars or other open areas of team PVP the difference is even larger as you are without those "escape" options and literally do have to run away to live, whereas a fixer will simply disappear regardless of his location or situation. It's the ultimate form of survival.

High risk should equal high reward kill. A player who ganks 1 person out of an entire team and then likely (but not always) dies is following this. Fixer meeping and backyard camping are low risk with high reward kills, and this breaks one of the golden rules of any sort of competitive activity. Shooting fish in a barrel if you will.

[Gatester]

Most areas allow for pvp as a matter of fact. It's not so many 100%-zones.

Areas that allow PVP when certain criteria (PVP flags) are met. That is the definition of "situation" which I just used. Most is not all, while only would allow for less than all. Nothing I said was false. Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing again?

Not gonna talk on behalf of others, but many seek out those situations to engage in diferent forms of player vs player interactions. Playing vs a profession or a side.

Others thinks it fun to engage in 3vs1 ganking, warfare or terrorism.

I can't tell, are you disagreeing with my statement that players want to have fun fighting each other by describing ways players can fight each other? Are they trying to not have fun fighting each other or something?

pvp'ers have always done BY-hopping. pvp has always happened near evac-zones.

you need to get your facts sorted. I'm stating facts here.

In what way have you corrected me exactly? Just because someone uses something does not mean they would not prefer to have it removed from the game.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite

Knowing this term is necessary for online forums, you are welcome.

No, it is not. Pvp'ers obviously prefer evac-possibillities. It's a simple fact.

Like /afk out of BS to keep your PVP title, all the PVPers loved that one too didn't they? There is a difference between tools that help you escape and tools that simply escape for you, you cannot just lump every single tool into one big category and say everything is exactly what everyone wants.

Following your logic every PVPer prefers to keep the AS pistol because PVPers prefer weapons. It is a fact that PVPers prefer having weapons. We call this a fallacy, also something worth researching.

You may have that opinion, but for many it is not and DEFINTLY not limited that that.

It can f.x be playing your profession vs other players in diferent scenarios or excitement.

You just disagreed that not all PVPers are competing when they PVP by using the example where someone is "playing their profession vs other players"...

If players are not flagging up to fight or kill other players, then please tell me what exactly they are flagging up for?

The change was requested by me. It is a good change.

I had no idea you were the reason players are now flagged when healing or buffing players while in combat. Any other changes you would like to claim, like the introduction of shadowlands perhaps?

The vandalising fixer are open to attack just like the doc near a BY.

The fail fixers who stand around clearly waiting to gank people while an entire team has them selected to stun, debuff, and kill them the moment he tries to attack just like that doc near a BY everyone knows is going to flag? Yes, we can discuss people who lack common sense when PVPing and any knowledge about tactics and position in PVP in another thread but I think we are discussing at least moderately capable players here.

I changed position, used elevation, used conceal with buffs, waited till my target was not cycling his cooldowns waited till players were chatting, etc when I setup for a gank attempt. This is the difference between PVPers qualified to discuss tactics and those who are not. At the same time, any profession can attempt a gank and be more successful by doing these things, so why is it fixers need meep to get away?

It is evacuation. Casting rage and retreating is also an evac. Agent got evac-nanos...

Hitting "W" and going that-away is also an evac then, if you want to be asinine.

Fixer meep = instantaneous evac. The instantaneous part is the problem and only fixers have it. Please name another instantaneous evac that instantly evacuates players from any and all combat?

You can also counter the meeping fixer. It's done fairly often.

You can also beat a doctor who heals his attacker instead of himself. When someone else with a clear advantage fails and we beat them because of it we do not call it "countering" or "tactics".





All this asside, I think you have a problem with the way you are considering PVP. You seem to base it solely on the perspective of an individual player, an attacker, when, as a necessaity of it's definition, PVP involves at least two players at all times. You cannot describe what makes one player happy while denying how the other player or players feel in that situation. If you did, we would have things like players who could kill flagged players without you being allowed to fight back. One player would potentially enjoy this, but this does not suddenly make it ok because the other player would clearly be unhappy with that situation.

This is how you balance PVP, you have to take all the involved players into consideration. PVP is at its best when both sides have a satisfying and fulfilling experience, not just one. This is an opinion but one I believe quite strongly when it comes to PVP.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

All this asside, I think you have a problem with the way you are considering PVP. You seem to base it solely on the perspective of an individual player, an attacker, when, as a necessaity of it's definition, PVP involves at least two players at all times. You cannot describe what makes one player happy while denying how the other player or players feel in that situation. If you did, we would have things like players who could kill flagged players without you being allowed to fight back. One player would potentially enjoy this, but this does not suddenly make it ok because the other player would clearly be unhappy with that situation.

This is how you balance PVP, you have to take all the involved players into consideration. PVP is at its best when both sides have a satisfying and fulfilling experience, not just one. This is an opinion but one I believe quite strongly when it comes to PVP.

not sure about your big huff puff with leetlover, it honestly sounds like you guys are arguing for the same side of the argument, but have cross wires somewhere.

In general, though, your closing statements in this post are astute, and are worth quoting and commenting.

I've bolded the part I think is poignantly relevant. There is no honour, no fight worth having, with a fixer who will meep when threatened.

I have no problem losing a fight, but I want to be ABLE to win it, if I prove to be the better contestant. Against a fixer who merely attacks at his leisure, dumps his alpha and - for lack of real definition here- gets lucky or unlucky enough to make a kill, and upon failure has an immediate and real reset button, the fixer essentially has EXACTLY infinite attempts to make a kill, while risking EXACTLY nothing.

That, I'm sorry to say, is gamebreaking.

There MUST be a change, sooner than later that acts as a counter to this - a 20 minute lockout, a stacking -nano init buff that makes it nearly impossible to fight following a meep, an NCU wipe or placement into rezz state albeit in the grid, however you want to do it I don't care, but the lack of balance which has been so accurately described by many members contributing to this thread makes me seriously and acutely want to stop playing out of such glaring neglect of balance regarding this.

Fixers lately, have everything: OP snares, OP offense, OP defence, OP specials, OP alpha, OP debuffs, and of course, instant evacs.

With a few of these, fixers were tolerable, but with so many of these getting buffed and overlooked the incongruity of the total package is frighteningly real. Oversight? fine. But fix it ASAP.

[RedWatr]

wow this reminds me so much of the same thread about soldiers several years ago, then enfos, then NT's, then crats (omg perma stun era lol) Shades, adv's...I guess it's fixers turn.

anything there is a LOT of, and there are a LOT of fixers. I think it's a response to having fewer people to play with, nothing gets around and does quite as well as a fix (endgame), and right now every advantage they have glowing red hot, because it's seen a lot.

Noobas, in all your OP listings you forgot PO, and the most effective Prof HH@B there is

for right now, the easiest fix, is to set a cast time for TEAM meep at 40 seconds. if you can't kill it by then, it's either not meeping, or you lost anyway. wow....and actual use for melee adv! interrupting fixer team meeps, yay...ahh wait, enf would be much better...so would shade, damn... lol.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

maybe it's time to finish off my fixer and just join the "I sploit according to FC's rules" club.

[Leetlover]

Before comparisons are made again, as if they justify things, standing right outside a backyard entrance, unloading your alpha, then backing up when it fails and waiting 5 minutes is the exact same thing. Although considerably more obvious and generally more vulnerable, the fact is that players are given an option to kill players with little to no risk, when in fact it should be the opposite.

You may think that, but that would certainly result in players avoiding pvp.

Case in point: The trends in new bs.

In the sense of tower wars or other open areas of team PVP the difference is even larger as you are without those "escape" options and literally do have to run away to live, whereas a fixer will simply disappear regardless of his location or situation. It's the ultimate form of survival.

It is, but the opposing side can fight back. (They can destroy towers).

High risk should equal high reward kill. A player who ganks 1 person out of an entire team and then likely (but not always) dies is following this. Fixer meeping and backyard camping are low risk with high reward kills, and this breaks one of the golden rules of any sort of competitive activity. Shooting fish in a barrel if you will.

but...we are in war! Not a sport-competition. There is duels 4 you.

Areas that allow PVP when certain criteria (PVP flags) are met. That is the definition of "situation" which I just used. Most is not all, while only would allow for less than all. Nothing I said was false. Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing again?

No, and I am glad we don't have seperate pvp and pvm-servers. The point is that the predujice you get when you flag is very exciting. Your ideas would ruin this completely.

I can't tell, are you disagreeing with my statement that players want to have fun fighting each other by describing ways players can fight each other? Are they trying to not have fun fighting each other or something?

I am trying to tell you that pvp-orientated players likes diferent things. Some like duels. Some like side vs side mass-pvp. Some like to play their profession in pvp-settings. Agents, assassins (watch the raid on osama bin laden) does warfare diferent than groundsoldiers for example. Subterfuge-combat f.x

And you don't have to be a roleplayer to enjoy the political conflict in AO. Just the act of not attacking your own side is indeed adhering to the storyline aspect of the virtual world that AO is. We're in a war, not a sport-competition.

We get it, you don't like certain things that many 'daily pvp'ers' enjoy.

What I try 2 say is that you should be carefull when talking on behalf of others.

In what way have you corrected me exactly? Just because someone uses something does not mean they would not prefer to have it removed from the game.

So you want a dead pvp-game?

Your suggestion would kill the fun. If people can't escape they stop doing it.

Like /afk out of BS to keep your PVP title, all the PVPers loved that one too didn't they? There is a difference between tools that help you escape and tools that simply escape for you, you cannot just lump every single tool into one big category and say everything is exactly what everyone wants.

Following your logic every PVPer prefers to keep the AS pistol because PVPers prefer weapons. It is a fact that PVPers prefer having weapons. We call this a fallacy, also something worth researching

No, not saying that. Since 06-07 I have only logged into AO for pvp. 2day I log in to ao to look for pvp and do nothing if nothing is happening. There's many players who are like me and am I claiming what I claim based on experience.

I was there pre-bschanges and saw how spawncamping (the situation of not being able to escape a dominating force) was VERY detrimental to the overall funfactor. The same thing applies here.

It is also very fulfilling to kill some1 b4 they get to BY or the grid. It is exciting to try 2 prevent it. And for us pvp-geeks; pvp-events alone is fun in itself.

You just disagreed that not all PVPers are competing when they PVP by using the example where someone is "playing their profession vs other players"...

yeah...some play a terrorist in a war for example.

If players are not flagging up to fight or kill other players, then please tell me what exactly they are flagging up for?

since u said please;

The excitement of being open to attack around other players.

And as I said earlier...pvp is a lot more than winning or direct combat (which you can do duels for), it is the joy of hunting, escaping, vandalising towerfields, ganking, sneaking, healing/aiding your side and interaction with players.

I had no idea you were the reason players are now flagged when healing or buffing players while in combat. Any other changes you would like to claim, like the introduction of shadowlands perhaps?

Get 2 the point?

Rephrase: I, amongst others, have long requested healing/buffing flagged players should flag.

The fail fixers who stand around clearly waiting to gank people while an entire team has them selected to stun, debuff, and kill them the moment he tries to attack just like that doc near a BY everyone knows is going to flag? Yes, we can discuss people who lack common sense when PVPing and any knowledge about tactics and position in PVP in another thread but I think we are discussing at least moderately capable players here.

And who is we? I discuss pvp-orientated players. People who actually pvp.

I still stand for what I said. They are very potent but capable fixers are killed frequently.

I changed position, used elevation, used conceal with buffs, waited till my target was not cycling his cooldowns waited till players were chatting, etc when I setup for a gank attempt. This is the difference between PVPers qualified to discuss tactics and those who are not.

Surovi, is that you?

I think we should focus on whats being told. Not cred/prestige.

Yes, people can gank/meep or AS at 30% and just get away and it is lame, but it is also a part of street-justice. There is duels or the battlestation for other types of pvp-encounters.

At the same time, any profession can attempt a gank and be more successful by doing these things, so why is it fixers need meep to get away?

They don't, but it is their profession. It's what they do and they fulfill a purpose. Fixers exists irl and they help people (journalists f.x) evac amongst other things.

Fixer meep = instantaneous evac. The instantaneous part is the problem and only fixers have it. Please name another instantaneous evac that instantly evacuates players from any and all combat?

I don't see a problem here. Whats your point? It has existed for 13 years.

All this asside, I think you have a problem with the way you are considering PVP. You seem to base it solely on the perspective of an individual player, an attacker, when, as a necessaity of it's definition, PVP involves at least two players at all times.

I don't, I just try to avoid talking on behalf of others.

If this was nerfed it would be less dangers, less pvp-events (which matters!) and more alt-tab.

You cannot describe what makes one player happy while denying how the other player or players feel in that situation.

I know it is bittersweet to force the fixer or meep or to die. 2 that point however, I think many had their pvp-content and had some fun. Which matters 2 many.

If you did, we would have things like players who could kill flagged players without you being allowed to fight back.

Well, that mischarracterises me.

I requested that buffing/healing flagged should flag players. Thats me.

This is how you balance PVP, you have to take all the involved players into consideration. PVP is at its best when both sides have a satisfying and fulfilling experience, not just one. This is an opinion but one I believe quite strongly when it comes to PVP.

Are you trying to say that the others can't fight back? Attacking causes bases 2 open.

What is worst is that real wars and tarasque doesn't run (pvm-tara is equal to tara not running as I consider it pvp-content) so there is no pvp. The reason is that a side stand no chance and also since FC hasn't made the nessesary system-changes to make real towerwars and tararaids to happen more often.

Until then, we can enjoy trying to take down griefers.

What else where 'we' doing anyway? Pvm? Put towers in vp-shop already tho...

[Leetlover]

Against a fixer who merely attacks at his leisure, dumps his alpha and - for lack of real definition here- gets lucky or unlucky enough to make a kill, and upon failure has an immediate and real reset button, the fixer essentially has EXACTLY infinite attempts to make a kill, while risking EXACTLY nothing.

That, I'm sorry to say, is gamebreaking.

I disagree. It's been a part of AO since launch. 2day we have bs and duels.

War and streetfights is not pretty, ever. Fast evacs is a part of the function of fixers.

Fixers lately, have everything: OP snares, OP offense, OP defence, OP specials, OP alpha, OP debuffs, and of course, instant evacs.[

I agree. I think the alphapower is too potent with their defence.