Buump! I think that doubling/halfing is too extreme, somthing like 10%-50% sound more sensible.
Buump! I think that doubling/halfing is too extreme, somthing like 10%-50% sound more sensible.
you basically agree upon one fact:
that one breed should not play a certain profession ever period.
i have to agree with bionitrus as i absolutely dislike this idea.
the way ao should be and will be after the breed fix is that there is no super breed as the differences (leaving the atrox mental attribute joke behind) will be minor.
strength and weaknesses of a breed should be noticeable within the class as they have a slightly different focus but all combinations should be viable.
sept 03 - the day ao was keeled by sl.
gone now. byebye.
I don’t like it, I don’t like it at all.
Playing an Opie agent a natural combination of breed and profession might get me boosts and plusses, but to be honest I really don’t care about more plusses to my sneak or rifle skills. They are already bigger than any other breed/proff combination.
My biggest problem is the lack of hits and -115 off body dev is a major no.
At lvl 150 I can no longer solo a 50% mission because I have no healing and few hits, I am forced to do the mission in a FP which precludes me from casting any nanos in combat including all my nice agent crit nanos. Having even fewer hits would push this problem further back perhaps to the point that agents wouldn’t be able to solo missions from lvl 100 and that would just totally suck.
Therefore this gets a huge thumbs down from me.
Tiggy
I DESPISE "expected paths". Absolutely despise them. I want the player to be able to set off on his/her own path and not be subject to failing before they even start. I want them to look at a profession with no conceived notion of breed and say 'that's what I want to do with my career.' Then I want them to look at the different breeds and say 'wow, that guy looks like what I want to be'.It can be argued that Funcom is instituting Profession limitations on items BECAUSE the system doesn't cause people to naturally flow into their expected paths.
It penalizes the **** out of anybody who isn't the 'ideal' proffesion/breed combination.The system I proposed wouldn't penalize anybody really.
That would be true and I could endorse something similar to your proposal if Nophex didn't have 'Profession=Soldier' on them, if every single new melee weapon didn't have 'Profession=Enforcer' on them. If the added skills in in the weapons section of the skill tree owing to having higher Strength and Stamina actually had any value then I would actually look forward to being able to use a new weapon. As I will still be relegated to a Longmoon or Blade of Mourning after the 'melee users Love patch', I cannot endorse something that would benefit one breed's ability to better use something that works while offering benefits to other breeds that are of marginal to non-existant value.If someone started an Atrox NT, they probably did it for the superior hitpoints and better weapon skills...well guess what...they'll have EVEN BETTER weapon skills and hit points. They'll be EVEN BETTER at being the soldier/nuker.
An MP who gains 100 in Nanoskills would remain on par with an MP who gains 100 in Weaponskills only if those 100 pts in weaponskills could be put to use. Based on what FunCom is doing, those extra hundred points are worthless. I can't endorse being penalized on one area without compensation in another.
Have any of you played an Atrox MP? Do you realize that I lag behind the Nanomage MP in Nanoskills by some 30-odd Nanoskill points already? Do you realize that while Nanomage MP's get to free their NCU's of Mocham's, I have to keep them running all the time? I made my choice not because of any hope to max/min. I made my choice because I didn't want to be behind my demon, but rather next to it. I don't mind how things are and accept my penalty. What I can't accept is any proposal that would make me weaker simply because of my breed.
If the proposal had a clause that would remove profession restrictions from weapons, then I could endorse it. My added 60 or whatever points I'd get in my weaponskills would offset my potential inability to use a certain new high-end nuke. As it stands, the added weaponskills would not do a single damn thing for me.
Apply the idea to other professions and the cracks get larger and larger. It's too drastic a change to what I personally see as basically a good system as it stands now. Minor tweaking might be in order. I'll give that the difference between Nanomage and Opi/Soli is marginal right now. That's why I could accept a small increase in the Intelligence cap on Nanomage to give them an additional 10 to 20 points in nanoskills at the end-game and 6 or so points right off the bat to compliment whatever changes are coming in 14.6. Anything more is overly unbalancing in favor of the 'perfect' breed/profession combination.
I don't mind 'see-saw' type alterations. One gets stronger in one area and weaker in another. This proposal would not make me stronger in my skills related to weapons if only because of the current trend towards 'profession-only' weapons and self-only on everything under the sun that the new dev team seems to have a fixation on.
Last edited by Bionitrous; Oct 20th, 2002 at 17:06:32.
This gets some major bumpage from me as well for the 50%/100%/150% provided at the atrox abilities are rebalanced a bit more either by changing one or two of those abilities to light blue and/or raising the caps. Making sense light blue seems to make the most sense.
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Bio, all that you are doing is arguing for the cookie cutter paths that exist now. You can *say* as much as you want that you "despise" cookie cutters, but thats exactly what you are arguing FOR. You are arguing for status quo.
If I'm arguing for the cookie cutters at all...which I'm not...my cookie cutters at least make intuitive sense.
You fail to see the implications of "dribble down." The Atrox breed would get bonuses to all heavy weaponry AND specials. Atrox would get bonuses to AR and huge bonuses to Full Auto...the Custom Heavy Suppressor comes to mind. An Atrox MP would be able to use it AT A RESPECTABLE ATTACK RATING I might add, as well as other very decent weapons both melee and ranged. Playing a nanomage MP, I'd take penalties to all of those skills. So, again, you focus too much on 14.5 items to make your arguments.
Enhancing "dribble down" increases variety of classes and breeds because breeds now give distinct advantages. You didn't even try to give a rebuttal of my examples. You just ignored them. C'mon, give it a shot. We both may learn something in the process.
I probably speak for a TON of players when I say "I want my breed advantage." And I want it to be worth the -1800-2000 hitpoints advantage that an Atrox MP has over me. And more NCU doesn't cut it AT ALL. I should be able to use nanobots NOTICEABLY better than you. After all, you have a 50% hitpoint gain over me and even now at level 195, with dedicated nanoskill implants I still have to dedicate 150+ NCU for buffs that do nothing but raise Nano skills. So, quite frankly, Ill tell you right now the so-called "NCU advantage" of the Nanomage MP is NOT WORTH a -1800-ish penalty to hitpoints.
All you are doing is arguing for *less* diversity and *more* cookie cutters because you ultimately are opposed to Breeds having any of the *intuitive* bonuses/penalties that anyone in their common sense honesty would agree they should get.
You chose Atrox MP so you can fight beside your pet and get in the mix? Well...my idea just made you BETTER at doing it. I just opened up for you a whole world of relatively decent weapons: melee and ranged. What cookie cutters are you referring too? You keep referring to these cookie cutters and how you "despise" them. Well, where are they? I just made you into a better Atrox MP...but...I made myself into a better Nanomage MP, one who has a distinctly different playstyle than you...one who can probably land an NSD noticeably easier than you can...because I'm better at nanobots than an Atrox. I fail to see the cookie cutters.
As it exists now, with the "marginal" Breed differences you support, I have a -1800 hp penalty and I can land my offensive nanos only *barely* better than you...and I resist them *barely* better than you...how lame is that. Barely = not noticeable to me.
I fail to see the cookie cutters. You're not going to get the uber weapons though. After all, people DO have a point when they say we have our Pets AND our nukes AND our weapon.
Last edited by Psiraven; Oct 20th, 2002 at 21:42:29.
MP's should be FEARED.
your argument on as its nanoskills are so overblown compared to everything else imo.
fact is that by eliminating the dribble down or even halving it for breeds not meant to be you kill off all atrox who make ANYTHING but an enforcer or soldier and even those would be gimp.
health can be argued but nano casting cannot. every class is reliant on their nano skills.
classes with green to blue mental attributes would not feel much of this and might adapt but the suggested change kills any and all atroxes trying to archieve high levels.
in addition as it stands now the breeds differ slightly. the solitus is the yardstick not the atrox. compared to a solitus you loose 800 health while gaining 900 nano. (2312 / 5059 vs 3187/4167 according to aoskillemu). suit yourself but that does sound balanced to me.
sept 03 - the day ao was keeled by sl.
gone now. byebye.
When I started this game I chose a solitus. Not because I knew anything about breed advantages, but because in the start room the character was deemed to be "average".
All of the following characters were solitus as well. I got 2 of them past 150, very close with the 3rd one. I didn't have to reach lvl 200 to make that decision.
We all chose our breed based upon the game mechanics in existence as of today. Some of us wanted to be different. Some rolled Atrox NTs and MPs. Others nanomage soldiers and enforcers. I play 3-4 hours per day, 3 days a week, sometimes more. I came to realisation that I don't want to be different, I want to be average, but not too far from the outliers.
Doing what you propose Psi, would make all 3 of them inferior; it won't really matter that much for my MP, since I don't need any more nano skills. I'm 165 at the moment, and can use every MP nano in the game. That might change however with the release of the shadowlands. Your trickle-down idea, combined with possible increase in breed caps would make solitus inferior in every respect to a nano breed in terms of nano skills. And that's what MPs are supposed to be all about.
My agent would become inferior to an opiflex agent; rifle skills are based on sense/agility. So are evades. Note that the HPs would stay the same.
My soldier would (and will with the upcoming 'breed fix') become inferior to an atrox soldier in terms of attack rating, and health pool.
That's my reasoning for being against this idea. I don't want to be gimped coming some patch just because I didn't roll a nanomage for my MP, or an atrox soldier.
The shades and the vest provide plenty of a boost to nano skills of a nanomage. Ask funcom to change the way camping works right now if they are hard to get.
The upcoming nano pool/hp changes, well, there are 20 or so threads on that topic alone.
Please don't ask for such a dramatic change in game mechanics this late in the game.
Bump for 50%/100%/200%
/Puus
Why not just go all out here. Do what is done in several other games - just make it be so that it's not possible to pick certain breed/profession combinations. That's what this idea amounts to.
seems like a good idea... hurts trox nano skills too much though
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A couple more things, I guess. I don't understand why a nanomage enforcer is a 'dilemma'. I'm also not following the complete logic here. My understanding is that Body Dev, for example, is not an ability at all - it's profession specific for the color. Why would Opi 'absorb a huge penalty to Body Dev' (evidently regardless of profession) and NM wouldn't?
Would exisitng breed specific items be removed? That would seem fair, since they exist to either highlight or compensate for the breed differences as they stand.
To me, this seems like just another way to restrict the game. I don't care for it.
I would welcome more weapon skills on my Trox MP, but I can't afford to lose any nanoskills.
As Bio said, but I like the idea..
(Guess I am sat on the fence then. Good job its a strong one lol!)
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It wouldnt balance the breeds.
It'd totally gimp Solitus, making them the worst for any profession.
Would however be fair, if solitus went from standard blue, to a 'teal' blue - Leaving other professions the same (perhaps bumping up the dark blues to teal in some cases)
I dont like it, but I'm a solitus. :P
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Uhm... Mike, the way I understand it, Solitus wouldn't be affected at all. They don't have any dark blue skills. Nor do they have green.Originally posted by Mike "Kinkstaah" Bond
It wouldnt balance the breeds.
It'd totally gimp Solitus, making them the worst for any profession.
Would however be fair, if solitus went from standard blue, to a 'teal' blue - Leaving other professions the same (perhaps bumping up the dark blues to teal in some cases)
I dont like it, but I'm a solitus. :P
Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.
But isn’t this idea of “exaggerating” the breed via dribble down just the ultimate in cookie cutting?
troxes get better at being enforcers and even worse at using nanos…
nano breeds get better at casting and worse at taking damage…
Opies get better at being agents and fixers and worse at taking damage...
Solitus… well they pretty much become totally disadvantaged as they are out classed by all the “specialist” breeds in every profession except perhaps being an MA or an adventurer where they become just average.
The idea presented is just going to polarise the breeds into certain professions. No one would experiment with trox NT’s/MP’s because they wouldn’t be able to use any of the nanos above lvl 100 (or whatever).
Anyone wanting to play an agent or fixer would be foolish to hamstring themselves by using any breed other than an Opi.
Nano breed enforcer, Oh dear he’s being retired at lvl 25 as its impossible to keep him alive when he finally gets agro and his damage is so poor the only way he can do this is by virtue of his ability to over cast his mongo.
This idea prevents certain breeds from being able to pursue certain professions. It also makes the idealised breed/profession combo stand head, shoulders, chest and crotch above any non ideal breed coming into a profession.
“But the enforcer will be better at using big weapons so he could still be an NT successfully” you say. How is he going to get the buffs he requires to use these weapons effectively? Because sure as poo stinks you can bet FC will have to bump the mobs hits and damage to make them effective against the ideal breed/profession combo characters that are now romping through missions and laying waste to the dyna camps.
Agreed, that this form of dribble-down makes sense in that it reflects the real world more accurately, but you can’t do that at the expense of existing characters who have chosen to follow a profession not ideally suited to their breed.
How annoyed would you be to find that you can no longer cast half of your nanos because you have just lost 80 pts across the board from your nano skills. Or that rifle you managed to squeeze on to your Nano breed is now red because you have lost a bunch of skill points and need another 20 lvls to be able to use it again.
Hands down, that is the most reasonable and impressive suggestion i have ever seen to balancing breeds. there will be a distinct advantage to each breed that way and nothing too extreme either. It's subtle, but in it's subtlety, it's brilliant! So much so that I will not add or subtract anything from that vision, only lend my support 100%!Originally posted by Psiraven
Bio, all that you are doing is arguing for the cookie cutter paths that exist now. You can *say* as much as you want that you "despise" cookie cutters, but thats exactly what you are arguing FOR. You are arguing for status quo.
If I'm arguing for the cookie cutters at all...which I'm not...my cookie cutters at least make intuitive sense.
You fail to see the implications of "dribble down." The Atrox breed would get bonuses to all heavy weaponry AND specials. Atrox would get bonuses to AR and huge bonuses to Full Auto...the Custom Heavy Suppressor comes to mind. An Atrox MP would be able to use it AT A RESPECTABLE ATTACK RATING I might add, as well as other very decent weapons both melee and ranged. Playing a nanomage MP, I'd take penalties to all of those skills. So, again, you focus too much on 14.5 items to make your arguments.
Enhancing "dribble down" increases variety of classes and breeds because breeds now give distinct advantages. You didn't even try to give a rebuttal of my examples. You just ignored them. C'mon, give it a shot. We both may learn something in the process.
I probably speak for a TON of players when I say "I want my breed advantage." And I want it to be worth the -1800-2000 hitpoints advantage that an Atrox MP has over me. And more NCU doesn't cut it AT ALL. I should be able to use nanobots NOTICEABLY better than you. After all, you have a 50% hitpoint gain over me and even now at level 195, with dedicated nanoskill implants I still have to dedicate 150+ NCU for buffs that do nothing but raise Nano skills. So, quite frankly, Ill tell you right now the so-called "NCU advantage" of the Nanomage MP is NOT WORTH a -1800-ish penalty to hitpoints.
All you are doing is arguing for *less* diversity and *more* cookie cutters because you ultimately are opposed to Breeds having any of the *intuitive* bonuses/penalties that anyone in their common sense honesty would agree they should get.
You chose Atrox MP so you can fight beside your pet and get in the mix? Well...my idea just made you BETTER at doing it. I just opened up for you a whole world of relatively decent weapons: melee and ranged. What cookie cutters are you referring too? You keep referring to these cookie cutters and how you "despise" them. Well, where are they? I just made you into a better Atrox MP...but...I made myself into a better Nanomage MP, one who has a distinctly different playstyle than you...one who can probably land an NSD noticeably easier than you can...because I'm better at nanobots than an Atrox. I fail to see the cookie cutters.
As it exists now, with the "marginal" Breed differences you support, I have a -1800 hp penalty and I can land my offensive nanos only *barely* better than you...and I resist them *barely* better than you...how lame is that. Barely = not noticeable to me.
I fail to see the cookie cutters. You're not going to get the uber weapons though. After all, people DO have a point when they say we have our Pets AND our nukes AND our weapon.
Nanomage: The OTHER other white meat
Give us another complete ip reset. cmon, any solution sucks in one way or another, but this you have to agree is good for everyone.Originally posted by Tiggy
Agreed, that this form of dribble-down makes sense in that it reflects the real world more accurately, but you can’t do that at the expense of existing characters who have chosen to follow a profession not ideally suited to their breed.
How annoyed would you be to find that you can no longer cast half of your nanos because you have just lost 80 pts across the board from your nano skills. Or that rifle you managed to squeeze on to your Nano breed is now red because you have lost a bunch of skill points and need another 20 lvls to be able to use it again.
Sure, if you picked an atrox NT you wouldnt be using pest nanos in...like forever, but look at your newfound weapons skills and higher attack rating and extra HP. it balances out. Remember that the nastiest NT on the planet was an atrox NT named snarf. Do you guys consider him gimped? What about if he had another 100 attack rating and 700 more hp? You really think that he'd be gimped? Oh maybe you think he'd be overpowered lol.
Atrox MP? That's a good choice imho. Big deal, you gotta fill your ncu with mochams in order to cast everything. at least you CAN cast everything as an atrox MP. most classes do not have it as lucky. Plus, you'll have a better weapon and attack rating than other MPs. It boggles my mind to think how much fun bionotrous would have if that were implemented. It seems that Atrox MPs would benefit the most from this.
As an opi, the boost to my evades and MA skill makes me smile. Playing my solitus characters, I'll be just as happy as i am now, because even though I wouldn't be gaining anything, I wouldn't be inhereting any weaknesses either
Nanomage: The OTHER other white meat
Good idea in general but it makes customized and strange breed/prof combos silly and useless really. It would go back to the way it is now before the breeed fix where solitus is best for everything. The only thing you can still customize in this game thanks to level reqs and prof reqs on items is your breed/prof, this would make that one aspect bogus. Nice concept though if the rest of the game worked properly.
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