Balancing Breeds thru ability score "dribble down"

[_____________TanisAS]

Psi is there anyone you agree with?

We should just rename the boards Psiravens opinions the be all and end all of AO. If you arent happy with your class dont rain down on everyone elses classes being noob classes.

I dont often reply on these boards but there are like 20 people who know more than you will ever know about pvp posting on these boards. Accept that you dont know best for once.


Peace

P.S I do like your original idea although some balance would need to be given to the breeds before such an idea would be valid.

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by Anikitos
Ah poor Psivaren, has low hp....and envies the Atrox....rofl.


**********
But, in case you haven't heard Enforcers and MA's are classes designed for n00bs. How hard is it to play an Enforcer.
**********
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....
Oh man...still in ROFL mode here....jesus.
Ok miss Boosted Intelligence 2002.....if you think that is what an Enforcer does...

1. You either crazy
2. Noob
3. Both

If i did that, i would never have been able to defeat the ppl i have.
Damn, you really are a pvp noob...

Speaking about Pvp on the above, in PVM ...bah forget pvm.
This entire thread is made for PVP only and the fact that you CANT pvp.

This is what i want you to do. Talk to TheDeacon.

For a couple of months ago he actually won over me in arena.
He is Nano by the way. The difference is that he KNOWS how to PVP with his class(MP).
Can he do it again? Nope i will just scare his pets away just as i did to a lvl200 MP. :P



***************
Talk smack to us when you learn how to play a non-healing class with less than half of the hitpoints that an enforcer can get self-buffed.
***************
I have non healing classes, engi sol(sure they can heal...a little..lol).
By the way, you are MP right? Last i checked, MP can heal.


You wont find me in 2h0....i am in Tir Arena dueling ppl.
Dont believe in zoning when i duel. Its a sign of weakness.


Thing is Psivaren, yes i am a crusader.
When i see such envy and hate from ppl like you i respond.
You ENVY the atrox, you want to be atrox, you love atrox.

Reroll an atrox?

Besides its not a race issue but a class issue.
You cant expect 95% of the Enforcer and soldier community to not be able to cast what they are casting right now. Its a NERF Psivaren and you know it.

You know the importance of the buffs we are casting right now.
Take away those buffs and its game over. Nothing could replace that.

So your proposal is the most MASSIVE NERF Calling i have ever seen in this forum.

And for what? Because you suck at pvp?

No, Psivaren. Thats not right. You cant camouflage a NERF ATTEMPT in fancy words.

Instead be correct and start a thread....NERF ATROX.
I would have more respect for you then i have right now.

Do it Psivaren, because thats what you want to do....start a thread...

NERF ATROX...BECAUSE I AM A HOMO BOY AND I SUCK IN PVP.

Do it and be done with it....because this thread is pathetic.

You go gir... err bo... err big atrox hunk of meat :P

[____________Anikitos]

Sjoko, me and psivaren had another battle of the titans in the NT forum before this one.

I love to duel Psivaren in the forums!
Especially when i allways win! :P

But what i dont get is, if you suck in PVP, why dont you try to understand your class and the class you are dueling?

Why must you resort to nerf campaigns because you dont have the intelligence to understand how to pvp psivaren? I mean, i could allways cast intelligence boost on your gimped carcass!

Cya in Arena...lessons are free of charge for you Psi.

[Snee]

To wield a weapon, wear armor or use some of the items in the game you only need 80% of the requirements to not suffer any sideffects. The only problem is meeting 100% of the requirements when you actually equip something.

To upload a nanoprogram you would just like above need 100% of the requirements fullfilled. However, casting the same nanoprogram is not possible unless you still meet 100% of the requirements.

This means:
A Nanomage with maxed skills and abilites can effectivly wear items with only 80% of the requirements. An Atrox with maxed skills and abilites can not cast a nanoprogram with only 80% of the requirements.

As an Atrox Agent, I would get roughly 1000 more health than the most common breed Opifex when 14.6 hits live. The sideffect is a loss of up to 30 points in all other important skills. If you read the text above, 30 points can be quite alot!

[____________Psiraven]

There are plenty of people I agree with in this thread, Tanis. And if you look you see people agreeing with me on this one thread. Don't take this little forum joust personally. This is the usual mode of operation between Ani and me, though he tends to take things woefully off topic.

Secret to the big looney boy here is that he doesnt mean half of what he posts.

Of course, Ani doesnt always win, I trounced him that in the NT board. ;p

Difference between me and Ani-boy is that when I discuss with other people I usually assume they aim at balancing the game in a fair way. Such is the opinion I hold of saner posters like Bio.

But when Ani is involved, whoah! look out. He LOVES to go ballistic and assume the worst about you.

The usual Anikitos conversations goes something like this. He'll wait til a thread is 6-7 pages long before posting, then he'll leap into the middle of it accusing everyone who disagrees with him of sucking in PvP no matter what the topic happens to be. Then, his usual "titanic" arguments usually involves just 2-3 rants when every other *dedicated* debator has at least 10 meaningful replies with reasoning and logic behind them.

Hypothetical convo
--------------------------------
PSIRAVEN: I think enhancing and/or penalizing the dribble down Green and Dark Blue abilities would make each breed unique.

BIONITROUS: Nah, I disagree, I think it leads to cookie cutter character builds, plus there are class restrictions on weapons so your proposed changes are flawed in that way.

PSIRAVEN: I suppose I can see that view, just that I think Nanos should be stronger in the nano specialized classes than they are now.

ANIKITOS: You suck in PvP, Psiraven.

PSIRAVEN: Hmmm?

ANIKITOS: Because everyone who disagrees with me sucks in PvP.

PSIRAVEN: What does that have to do with the discussion.

ANIKITOS: Everyone who sucks in PvP have stupid ideas.

PSIRAVEN: What do you think about George W. Bush.

ANIKITOS: He sucks in PvP therefore shouldn't be President. I OWNZ him.

PSIRAVEN: Well, what about Mel Gibson.

ANIKITOS: Terrible actor since he sucks in PvP.

PSIRAVEN: Keanu Reeves?

ANIKITOS: Terrible PvPer since he sucks as an actor.

PSIRAVEN: Mother Theresa?

ANIKITOS: Definitely sucks in PvP.

PSIRAVEN: What about Ghandi?

ANIKITOS: Bah, that skinny little homo only went pacificist cuz he...SUCKS...in pvp of course.

PSIRAVEN: Thats ridiculous, they prolly don't even play AO.

ANIKITOS: STFU, if they DID play AO...they would suck in PvP.

PSIRAVEN: Well what about Thedeacon, he seems to agree that Atrox would be more than compensated with the dribble down suggestions in this thread?

ANIKITOS: Well, he beat me once, but he sucks against me now...------------------------

and on and on and on....blah blah. Every counter-argument is the same from thread to thread.

I love Ani, he makes you feel all the heat and slander you would feel if you ran for political office (like running for governor of california or something) except he does it over a video game discussion.

[Nullifax]

Originally posted by Anikitos
PipBoy whats your ingame chr.
So i can put you on my ignore list.

Psivaren, your idea sucks so bad its amazing.
It was a LAME attempt to try to nerf Atrox.

This entire thing you started is because you get spanked all the time in pvp right?

Its not the race, its the person behind the chr that makes the difference. If you suck as nano you gonna suck as atrox.

Atrox are not dumb PipBoy you low hp gimp. We where smart enough to pick the RIGHT race.

Now you Homo Boys go cry me a river....and i will see you gimps in arena.....and proceed with applying Premium Support Beam love on your intelligent skulls.

P.S
Nice try by the way, on your silly attempts to nerf Atrox.

What you also fail to realize is that I'm also of the mindset to decrease nanomage hp even further and completely remove their armor from the game. They should get the worst armor available IMO.

I don't think breeds should be balanced at all. Balance has nothing to do with it from a roleplaying standpoint. As such, I just wish the breeds were truly what they were described as, nothing more. As it is, the biggest difference is the way they look.

Oh and btw, I've got an Atrox MP I'm playing lately. And no I won't post his charname. I don't take forumstuff ingame, and I don't give others that same opportunity. Why? Because I RP, and it ruins the entire experience if some guy starts talking about a forum that doesn't even exist in the game.

[____________Anikitos]

Psivaren you know i kicked your *** in the NT forum!

What i love about Psivarens posts...

She did this to me in the NT forum too by the way..and i was in ROFL mode for 20 minutes. Then i came home and i was on ROFL mode again...for 20 minutes. :P

Its when she does this HYPOTHETICAL conversations between me and her, that ALLWAYS makes my stomache hurt from laughter!

Good work Psivaren, you made my day again!

But you know why i dont like your idea.
It will cripple me as an atrox enforcer.
I wont be able to cast the nanos that i am casting now.
And the new nanos? HAHAHAHAHAHA....nuff said.

Also if it was PVM you where concerned about you would not have started this thread.

What you want is PVP. This is a 100% PVP thread.
Its about who OWNS who.

Its about you wanting to OWN. Come on whats the big deal Homo Boy...just say it.

Just start a new thread...

NERF ATROX....BECAUSE I AM A HOMO BOY AND I SUCK IN PVP.

How hard is that?

And your idea is one powerfull nerf towards the atrox enf/sol.

Now if you HALF Enf/Sol nano reqs....i agree with you 100%.
What do you think, after all Enf/Sol are "DUMB" atrox....their nano reqs should be put to HALF.

I think its fair.


Apprentice Anikitos....Proud Atrox Enforcer
Slayer of Psivaren and lackeys...:P


P.S
FFS i am not a "looney".
I am an Atrox Enforcer :P

[Predda]

Solitus
Strength 472
Agility 480
Stamina 480
Intelligence 480
Sense 480
Psychic 480
------------------------------------
=2872

Opifex
Strength 464
Agility 544
Stamina 480
Intelligence 464
Sense 512
Psychic 448
-------------------------------------
=2913

Nanomage
Strength 464
Agility 464
Stamina 448
Intelligence 512
Sense 480
Psychic 512
-----------------------------------
=2880

Atrox
Strength 512
Agility 480
Stamina 512
Intelligence 400
Sense 400
Psychic 400
-----------------------------------
=2704

this shows that atrox isnt That über..lol

[____________Psiraven]

oh puhlease.

Let's both remember what happened there shall we.

You leapt into that topic flaming me up and down, left and right, because you *thought* I wanted to nerf NT's and then what did you do after that?

C'mon, you can remember. Knock on that head of yours.

What did you do? You then proposed the exact same fixes for the NT's that I did on an earlier page, item by item, the very same things.

Then you came back with your tail between your legs in the next post.

Look...figure this out for yourself. Go back to the beginning of the thread and play with the numbers. Would you, as an Atrox enforcer, rather get +90-100 bonuses to 1hb/2hb, 2he, some of your Specials, and to Body Dev, and other Str/Stam related skills automatically from enhancing your Green ability "dribble down"...

...or would you rather raise SI/PM to 800+ and your BM/MC to ~600 to get lesser bonuses to all those same skills from nanoprograms that take up NCU space. Yes, you would pay a penalty in nano skills for the bonus, not that it would matter too much. The advantage of Solitus/Opifex/Nano enforcer is in other things like using programs like Challenger that last a little longer and having more nano pool for the Mongos and Layers. Atrox benefits in sheer strength, power, slightly better crittage, and ability to hit thru evade skills, the other breeds benefit in time length of nano programs.

Then all you have to do is come back and say 'Yes I like this trade-off' or 'No, I don't like this trade off' without going bonkers.

-Laterz...Friday...out of here.

PS If you're getting tired of the hypothetical convos, I can make an Anikitos glossary to debating later on.

[Blackwing]

what went wrong here?

anyway can we agree it is a suggestion not taken well by most of the players and let it drop?

[Nullifax]

Originally posted by Blackwing
what went wrong here?

anyway can we agree it is a suggestion not taken well by most of the players and let it drop?

Nope.

We can agree it's a suggestion though. We can't make any statements about how many do or don't support it. ESPECIALLY since 90% of the playerbase doesn't even read the forums anyway.

[____________Anikitos]

Psivaren has been smocking heavy stuff again.....just as she did with the NT thread.

Correct me if i am wrong....but how many NT where against you in that thread? I rest my case.

You know exactly what you where doing in that thread Psivaren, same stuff you are doing here.

NM, in the NT thread you finaly shut your mouth and admitted defeat.

***********
Then you came back with your tail between your legs in the next post.
***********
I find you very amusing, you allways make me laugh hard.
When did i do that? I have suceeded in showing the ppl your nerfing intentions. Dont be a bad looser now.

Also, do not assume for a sec that you know my proffesion better then yours. I dont like your idea at all.

NO, i find your idea flawed in every way and a direct NERF towards the atrox race.

Check out what Predatorox posted Psivaren.

Homo Nano = 2880 base points
Atrox = 2704 base points

Is that fair? Dont we deserve to get balanced?
Can you deny this numbers Psivaren?
Lets see how you will manage to crawl out of this one....try, just try to do it.

Besides Psivaren you will never own nm what you do.
Ppl like you are born to loose, every time.

And stop with this ATROX(dumb) mentality your are displayen towards me. Its very foolish and makes you look like an idiot.

This idea of yours will NEVER come through.


Why dont you answer me this PSIVAREN...

Lets half the reqs of ENF/SOL nanos....then implement your idea after we balance the atrox race to have same base points as the rest.
If you say yes, i agree with you.

Now, say yes Homo boy and i am in.

[Blackwing]

Originally posted by PipBoy


Nope.

We can agree it's a suggestion though. We can't make any statements about how many do or don't support it. ESPECIALLY since 90% of the playerbase doesn't even read the forums anyway.

frankly, i would like a suggestion like this only to be judged by the experienced folk anyway.

i do not mean a level limit i mean people with common sense who have either played each race or played with the ip allocation program to see how the atrox really really sucks at high levels.

thing is that atrox and nanomage are a tradeoff, one blooming early, one blooming late. *shrug*

[_______________Sjoko]

Straight facts from another breed discussion which I have posted earlier:

Nanomage
Strength 464
Agility 464
Stamina 448
Intelligence 512
Sense 480
Psychic 512
Average base abillity "score": 480
Total baseabillities score: 2880
Nano gained pr nanopool point: 3
HP gained pr. body dev point: 2


Atrox
Strength 512
Agility 480
Stamina 512
Intelligence 400
Sense 400
Psychic 400
Average base abillity "score": 450.68
Total baseabillity score: 2704
Nano gained pr nanopool point: 2
HP gained pr. body dev point: 3


Solitus:
Strength 472
Agility 480
Stamina 480
Intelligence 480
Sense 480
Psychic 480
Average base abillity "score": 478.67
Total baseabillity score: 2872
Nano gained pr nanopool point: 3
HP gained pr. body dev point: 3


Opifex:
Strength 464
Agility 544
Stamina 480
Intelligence 464
Sense 512
Psychic 448
Average base abillity "score": 485.33
Total baseabillity score: 2912
Nano gained pr nanopool point: 3
HP gained pr. body dev point:3

Van horn vest & the shades. If we count them into the equation on the first overview, the average will go up to 493.33 IF (big IF there, I know it's rare) the vest gives +20 to int.

Just an example, level 200 MA (just so we have the same profession to compare with):
Solitus
Nano: 2787 (nanopool skill 659)
Hp: 4387 (body. dev 659)
Sum: 7174 nano & hp

Opifex
Nano: 2572 (nanopool skill 654)
HP: 4192 (body. dev 659)
Sum: 6764 nano & hp

Nanobreed
Nano: 3010 (nanopool 665)
HP: 3512 (body. dev 651)
Sum: 6522 nano & hp

Atrox
Nano: 1692 (nanopool 642)
HP: 4426 (body dev. 667)
Sum: 6118 nano & hp

Same similarities goes for NTs as well. Havent' checked any other professions, but I think it's the same.

IP cost when maxed base abillities and nanopool + bodydev.

Solitus: 6.430.656 = 1804844 ips spent
Opi: 6.549.313 = 1686187 ips spent
Nano: 6.466.288 = 1769212 ips spent
Atrox: 6.592.843 = 1642657 ips spent

It's funny pipboy says that he doesn't care that

And pipboy

I'm also of the mindset to decrease nanomage hp even further and completely remove their armor from the game. They should get the worst armor available IMO.

Let's recap.

NTs especially, complain about having little hp and consider themselves as gimps.

You're an MP, that have about the same amount of hp and think you should have less hp and much worse armor.

Now imagine that you didn't have those pets you already have. NT nanomages would die by your bad breath.

No wonder why you suggest these changes. You have a meatball/demon to tank for you, you have a personal healer to heal you. You're far better off with lesser hp than NTs are.

[____________Psiraven]

Ani-boy,

There were a good portion of people agreeing with me, but how would you know since you don't read threads thru before replying. There were at least 7 people who I remember by name in that thread who said I had good points; at least 3 NT's as well. That a lot of NT's disagreed with me had more to do with the fact that a controversial discussion was on the NT board. If I wanted to be assured that most people would agree with me, I'd have had the discussion on the MP board. And the fact that a lot of them disagreed had nothing to do with you. The fact that most agreed to "your" fixes and disagreed with "my" fixes, even though they were both the same proposals basically (in fact, mine were even stronger than yours), had more to do with me being an MP and subject to the typical class jealousy that surround NT's and MP's.

Anycase, guys, adding up all the ability scores and judging breeds by that just doesn't work. Thats like holding a card game and dealing out 5 cards to Sjoko, 3 cards to Ani, and 4 to me...and then saying Sjoko wins because he has the most cards.

Balance in this game is weighted in abstracts, not numbers...in class abilities and counter-abilities: the ability to heal, the ability to root, the ability to debuff, the ability to increase % evasions, the ability to increase % crit, the ability to summon surrogates(pets), the ability to buff hp, the ability to de-root...and so forth and so forth.

So, adding up all the ability scores of each breed and coming up with a total and an average is fairly meaningless. The numbers do not even mean the same things for each breed in how they affect certain skills like Body Dev and Nano Pool.

ANYWAYS...

If ya don't like the dribble down idea, then all you got to do is just say so. Even Anikitos says he can accept it if some other things were adjusted...even if he had to wade through a long post of his own sludge to get to that point. When you've run out of ideas, throw stones...right, Ani?

There are PLENTY of people in this thread who have said they can agree with the dribble down idea if such-and-such thing was changed; EVEN some people who have taken a stance to oppose it in general.

Thats what the thread is for: discussion. Thats what I said in the initial posts, throw around the idea, analyze it, chew it up, play with the numbers...etc...etc...and hey, throw stones if you want.

Laterz.

[____________Anikitos]

Lay off the personal insults for a while.
I am not in the mood arguing with you. Leads nowhere.
So if you have half a brain, stop it.

Forget the NT's. Well all know what happened in there. No mystery at all.

Its all about the numbers Psi. Atrox as a race is not balanced thats a MATHEMATICAL fact, surely even a person like you must see that?

If you dont see it, then i guess we know why.

Numbers dont lie, they are there. Analyze them and you will see that the Atrox is not balanced. We need a serious boost.

About your idea...for the LAST TIME.

IMHO opinion it stinks badly. (I have stated why.)
Thats what i think about it.

IMHO your idea Psivaren, S.T.I.N.K.S

Its my opinion and if you dont like it......you know what to do.

Thats it, good luck with your nerf crusade.


P.S
I just wish that ppl started to learn how to play their class instead of whining and starting nerf crusades....IMHO these ppl are destroying this game, not FC.

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by Psiraven
Anycase, guys, adding up all the ability scores and judging breeds by that just doesn't work. Thats like holding a card game and dealing out 5 cards to Sjoko, 3 cards to Ani, and 4 to me...and then saying Sjoko wins because he has the most cards.

I see your point, and raise it by 3 ;p (jk)

I see what you mean, however in this case atroxes will get the worst drawback. Opi will get the best result.

As someone already pointed out, this would be a great idea if the game wasn't released yet and still was in beta. However the game is alive and kicking in a released state. Doing this now is kinda too late already.

To use your own example, opi got 5 cards, nano 4, atrox 3 and solitus got disqualified.

Balance in this game is weighted in abstracts, not numbers...in class abilities and counter-abilities: the ability to heal, the ability to root, the ability to debuff, the ability to increase % evasions, the ability to increase % crit, the ability to summon surrogates(pets), the ability to buff hp, the ability to de-root...and so forth and so forth.

So, adding up all the ability scores of each breed and coming up with a total and an average is fairly meaningless. The numbers do not even mean the same things for each breed in how they affect certain skills like Body Dev and Nano Pool.

That's where I don't agree.

I'll talk about what I know, and that's about opi and atrox. Opi has the second cheapest base abillities to raise, at the same time they have the highest base skill average. It's nice but kinda unfair, don't you think ?

Atroxes have the second cheapest, however it's not that weird since they are almost 30 (28) point average behind the second breed. That means 7(x4 = 28) points less average. On all skills.

It's not much, but then again it's 7 points less than, multiply that number with the total number of skills and you'll see that it's a substantial number. Sure you don't use every skill, but the point is still there. I don't mind atroxes being worse off casting nanos, but they still should be able to use their best buffs at tl 6 cap.

Most people agree (except pipboy) that if your dribbledown were to happen atroxes have to gain more skills or get better benefits. The drawback by doing what you suggest is that nobody else but nanobreeds will raise int, cause you won't get that much benefits from raising it.

HP is nice, but it's not all. You can't say that HP is worth the sacrifice. Simply because you have so many items, buffs etc. that add to hp.

You have almost the same when it comes to nano, instead of nanoincrease you get nanocost reducers which is basically the same thing.

ANYWAYS...

If ya don't like the dribble down idea, then all you got to do is just say so. Even Anikitos says he can accept it if some other things were adjusted...even if he had to wade through a long post of his own sludge to get to that point. When you've run out of ideas, throw stones...right, Ani?

There are PLENTY of people in this thread who have said they can agree with the dribble down idea if such-and-such thing was changed; EVEN some people who have taken a stance to oppose it in general.

Which someone said: Atrox & solitus is against
nanomage & opi for.

The reason why is that opi + nano will gain the most advantages, while atroxes and solitus will be the loosers in this system.

Thats what the thread is for: discussion. Thats what I said in the initial posts, throw around the idea, analyze it, chew it up, play with the numbers...etc...etc...and hey, throw stones if you want.

Laterz.

Like already stated I semi-like the idea.

The concept is nice, but what I feel AO is about, is to be able to create your own character in that way you want. Of course FC have now taken an ill turn imo towards how each profession should be and it prolly won't be long before the same thing happens when it comes to a choice in breeds. (You already have the beam which is atrox only for instance, although it's logical).

I don't want everyone to be the same, that creates a dull game where everyone might as well be blue, green, white etc. Might as well remove textures from the players.

If you on the other hand had an option when creating a character, use breed specialization or use general specialization base on the current system, then I'd be all for it. That way you could create NTs that has specialized within casting nanos or enforcers specialized using weapons. But if you ask me, that should be profession specialization and not breed based.

I hope you see what I mean.

[____________Psiraven]

(blink)

omg...

...its a sane and rational post...on the AO forum no less.

--------------------------------------------------------
"As someone already pointed out, this would be a great idea if the game wasn't released yet and still was in beta. However the game is alive and kicking in a released state. Doing this now is kinda too late already."
--------------------------------------------------------

I understand this one completely. I hate drastic changes myself, but I've been "de-sensitized" by drastic changes that have occured already and the stated ones intended for the future.

So, sometimes I lose sight of the fact that not everyone was here at release and some people were lucky enough to choose classes or have certain advantages that didnt go through many drastic changes. And I do apologize for that.

Funcom has many drastic changes on the horizon and this seems to be their normal mode of operation....fortunately or unfortunately.

But, I definitely prefer a stable game myself.

-------------------------------------------------------
"Atroxes have the second cheapest, however it's not that weird since they are almost 30 (28) point average behind the second breed. That means 7(x4 = 28) points less average. On all skills."
--------------------------------------------------------

Atrox is an exception among the breeds because of the very low caps. Aside from the hit point inferiority of Nanomage...the three non-Atrox breeds are indistinguishable from each other due to caps that really aren't that far apart. If Atrox had ~440-450 caps in Sense, Int, and Psy, they too would be indistinguishable from the other 3...skill-wise, not hp-wise

The way I see it, the problem is not in the caps, but in the system itself. But, whether you see a "problem" in the first place goes to the core of what you want from AO. Do you want the breeds to be marginally different or drastically different? That's a personal preference and there really is no way to argue one side out of the other with debate.

The real question is where does Funcom land on that issue; since its their game ultimately. Do they want marginal difference or drastic differences? If the former, then this topic is a waste of time, simply let the breed specifc items determine the differences. If its the latter then its not a waste of time to explore ways to do that fairly; which is what the thread is for.

--------------------------------------------------
"Most people agree (except pipboy) that if your dribbledown were to happen atroxes have to gain more skills or get better benefits."
--------------------------------------------------

Yes, I've said this at least 3 times in this thread and also even mentioned it in the initial post. Opifex have only 1 Dark Blue ability and Atrox has 3. That was one of my concerns.

The only point where I'd disagree with you here is on the point that Intelligence is the most important skill. I believe Agility and Stamina are equally important in their own skill groups.

Solitus wouldn't be left out really. For example, if Opifex were to take a "dribble down" penalty from a 2nd ability, maybe their normal Blue Psychic, they would differ in Body Dev and Nano Pool and Nano Res by 70-90 points under the 0/100/200 example as well as losing 30 points from BioMet and MatMet, and some other skill would take minor downturns. Solitus is the average and as the initial post says, there are all sorts of ways to play with the numbers to do what you want...and I don't really support any particular way over another. I use the 0/100/200 numbers as examples only.

--------------------------------------------------
"HP is nice, but it's not all. You can't say that HP is worth the sacrifice. Simply because you have so many items, buffs etc. that add to hp.

You have almost the same when it comes to nano, instead of nanoincrease you get nanocost reducers which is basically the same thing."
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I can agree here. Not only is it difficult to weigh more hitpoints versus lost skill points, but AO is a game where "items" are allowed to overshadow your breed completely. In other words, why be a nanomage if "items" like pillows, pistols, cloaks make the skill bonus redundant and allow others to self cast the highest nanos? Why choose an Atrox if there are "items" and "programs" that can more than double your hit points no matter what breed you are?

This is what we see in the game now, IMHO, and is why Solitus and Opifex are currently the most popular breeds, as the breeds with the most benefit with the least trade-off. This will change in some ways in 14.6 of course.

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"The concept is nice, but what I feel AO is about, is to be able to create your own character in that way you want."
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I agree completely with this, with the comment that a fine line needs to be drawn between allowing players to create the kind of characters they want as opposed to allowing them to create characters that "have their cake and eat it too."

Naturally, this refers to issues like whether all breeds should be able to self-cast all nanos eventually...or should all breeds be able to use all weapons. I understand and sympathize that players have strong opinions about that, and for the most part it will have to remain an "agree to disagree" issue.

Blackwing has stated that he believes Nanos "bloom" early and Atrox "bloom" late, but in the end should bloom equally.

Naturally, I disagree because I would never take a short term benefit in exchange for a long term (and permanent) penalty. Players tend to approach this game like stock investors, the time spent here is an investement...that means most players look to the end-game. When we choose breed/class we are looking at the end-game benefits, not the middle-game benefits of blooming early.

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"If you on the other hand had an option when creating a character, use breed specialization or use general specialization base on the current system, then I'd be all for it."
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This is a very nice idea.

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"But if you ask me, that should be profession specialization and not breed based."
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This is one of the reasons I don't think an enhanced dribble-down will be enacted. Funcom has planned profession specializations which will allow skill ratings up to 2000. I doubt that enhancing dribble-down fits into the "skill budget" which they have already planned for Shadowlands.

All in all, I don't really think we have any contentious points. These are just musings.

[_____________Gilraen]

BUMP!

I like the ideas/suggestions of psiraven.

Salvaes – nanomage adv
Salvael – solitus crat

(Anyone got a nice nanomage-vest left?)