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Thread: Balancing Breeds thru ability score "dribble down"

  1. #1

    Balancing Breeds thru ability score "dribble down"

    This is just an idea for all of you to pick apart.

    When I first started AO (2nd day of release) I was under the impression that the final color of any skill was determined by the combination of your Breed with your Profession. As you all know, this is not the case, skill color is determined solely by Profession so that an Atrox NT and Nanomage NT both have Green nano skills.

    Funcom has stated they want to avoid changing the color of skills due to IP reasons, but it *may* still be possible for Breed to determine your skill levels by adjusting how much your base Ability scores add "dribble down" points to any particular skill.

    For example:

    1) FC adjusts it so that raising your breed's Green Ability scores will add TWICE the amount of dribble down to all skills reliant on them.

    2) In contrast, FC can make it so that breeds get no dribble down effects from any Dark Blue ability scores.

    3) Normal Blue scores give normal dribble down.

    Take an Opifex for example.

    In the end game, they would gain about 105 points to all their evade skills and weapon initiatives. They will get moderate to enormous boosts (+50-120-ish) to all Agility/Sense related weapons and special attacks like Rifle, Bow, Pistol..etc. They would get moderate to enormous boosts to Navigation and Spying skills as well. Burst gets a small boost. Fling Shot and Multi-Wield get huge boosts (+120-ish). Assault Rifle gets a very small boost. Treatment and First Aid get moderate boosts.

    They would absorb a huge penalty to Body Development (-115-ish). They would take moderate penalties in all stamina related weapons including all melee weapons except for 1HE and Piercing. The changes to the SMG skill would be negligable. Full Auto takes a moderate hit.

    So basically what happens is that an Opifex is automatically oriented to sleek, faster weapons. Over all, they benefit a little bit too much over the penalties they take.

    Nanomage

    Gains about 100 points in all nano skills across the board. Huge gain in Nano Pool. Gains about 50-60 points in Treatment and First Aid. Gains small to medium bonuses in Navigation and Spying skills. Huge gain to Comp. Lit and Nanoprogramming (+125-ish). Gains moderate boost to Ranged Energy and Melee Energy (+50-ish).

    Takes medium to huge penalties ranging from 50-100 to almost every weapon skill and weapon special. Takes medium hits to all evade skills (-50-ish).

    So basically what happens is that we solve the dilemma of things like nanomage enforcers being better than atrox; due to higher nano skills and having higher nanopool which can be converted to hit points via Mongo line/Layers. When all is factored in (see Atrox below), an Atrox would have about 150-200 weapon skill advantage over a nanomage (assuming both are casting the same weapon buffs) and a further natural hp advantage.

    Atrox

    Opposite of Opifex. They might take little bit too much penalty for the benefits gained.

    They would get only a small increase in Assault Rifle. They would take a moderate increase in Burst and a huge increase (+125-ish) in Full Auto. They would gain huge increases in practically all melee weapons (+120 or so); but only moderate increases in 1he or Piercing. Huge increase in Body Dev. (+125) on top of what they already have. Moderate increase in Shotgun. Fling Shot stays the same. Huge increase in Brawl (+125-ish).

    They would take moderate hits to all evades similar to nanomage. They would lose 80 or so points from all nano skills across the board. Treatment and First Aid would suffer large hits. Map Navigation and Spying skill take medium to large hits. Small decrease in Martial Arts. Very large hit to Dimach. Moderate hits to Melee Energy and Ranged Energy (-50-ish)

    As you can see, this gives some very pointed strengths to Atrox. The famed Atrox NT is still a viable class but does not have such clear cut advantages over the Nanomage NT. The Atrox NT can use Full Auto weapons and melee weapons to great effects. The Nanomage NT, when they get their "thingie" from Blackmane, will be weaponless and solely reliant on nukes, plus they'd have the extra nanopool and nanoskill to use them.

    ------------------------------------------

    The above is not an actual suggestion, its just one of several ways this could be implemented. It could be decided perhaps that only 1 Green ability from any Breed gives double "dribble down" effects and only 1 Dark Blue gives no "dribble down". Or Green skills give 1.5 times the "dribble down" and Dark Blue skills give 0.5 the amount of "dribble down."

    Or maybe FC can implement the above so that Atrox takes no "dribble down" only from Intelligence and Psychic, but still gets normal "dribble down" from their Dark Blue Sense which would alleviate a lot of penalties and now give sizable boosts to Assault Rifle.

    There are all sorts of ways to look at this.
    Last edited by Psiraven; Oct 19th, 2002 at 22:34:47.
    MP's should be FEARED.

  2. #2
    Or, alternately, give 50% for dark blues, and 150% for green scores.

    This'd probably balance a bit better.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  3. #3
    me like
    Suupaslap Master 10th Dan--Rk2
    Smugglerguy Ickle baby fixer--Rk2

  4. #4
    I really like this idea, but then again my main char is a nanomage doc, my alts are a solitus crat and an opifex fixer... so what you propose would be great for them. However if this happened you would rapidly see every atrox on rubika riot. But thats FC's fault for giving atrox such a massive ability penalty compared to other breeds

  5. #5
    Holy crap!

    That is the best idea I've EVER heard so far as to how to balance the breeds!!!

    Atrox would get a healthy boost in hp (but raise thir int/psy cap by 50 points, i mean cmon they aren't that dumb) and a big bonus to melee weapons

    Opifex would get a hit to hp, but a GOOD bonus to bows, MA, rife, etc. Speaking as an opi ma, this is a FAIR tradeoff

    Nanomages get a big boost to nanoskills and nanoprogramming.

    two additional suggestions: make all breed get 3hp for every point of body dev, except make nanomages have DARK blue stamina, instead of the regular light blue. Opis and nanos SHOULD have some hit to hp for the bonuses they get.

    yeah, have 50% trickle down from dark blue skills and 150% from green skills. That is absolutely brilliant and this should be considered by the devs. Put it on test server, let us make lvl 100ish characters and see how it works. That's what the test server is all about, isn't it?

    The current implemented fix by Funcom is horrid for all breeds. Currently due to such a small hit in stamina and a huge boost to agi and sense (not to mention more overall skill points than any other breed) opifex may be the best breed at the present time.
    All breeds should have the same amount of skill points, only stuck in different places. THAT is balance. Atroxes' int and psy and sense should be raised a bit to make up for the lack of trickle down however. And nanomages still need to take some sort of a hit in hp, so to re-iterate, make their stamina DARK blue in exchange for letting them have 3hp per body dev point.

    BUMP THIS idea!!!
    Nanomage: The OTHER other white meat

  6. #6
    I hope this thread gets some serious bumpage, I'd really like to hear from Funcom if something like this is a possibility.

    Personally, I'm in favor of the 0% Dark Blues/100% Blues/ 200% Green version of "dribble down" while limiting Atrox penalties only to Int/Psy and giving normal "dribble down" for their Dark Blue Sense.

    Khiryat likes the 50%/100%/150% version better and it definitely is more moderate.

    It all depends on how Funcom views their breeds.

    When I think of Opifex/Nanomage/Atrox characters, I don't think of them as a "Solitus Plus this and Minus that."

    I personally think the differences between the Breeds should be extreme...not moderate. Extreme enough to cause very distinct styles of play and choices of weaponry to arise between different Breeds of the very same Profession.

    Extreme...but equal, if such a thing is possible.

    Here's my own little bump.
    Last edited by Psiraven; Oct 20th, 2002 at 02:13:58.
    MP's should be FEARED.

  7. #7
    The 50%/150% is a solid idea. nothing/all is a little extreme.

    In game you'd see sols uneffected by this change, Atrox in nano professions would lose the ability to use a number of nanos, nano would gain.

    I don't know if the idea will get any traction, a lot of people trying strange things like nano enforcers, and atrox metas would be a little upset (understatement) about a change like this.

  8. #8
    A major bumpage for the best idea ever

  9. #9
    Nice idea in theory but kind of an idiotic suggestion to make such extreme changes to the breeds fundamentals at this stage of the games life

  10. #10
    Good idea, but would suck majorly for atroxes who has 3 dark blue abilites, vs nano/opi who has one. <--- Ahhaha wrong

    If atrox abilities gets "fixed" ie only 1 dark blue ability and going 150%/100/50% it might not toally cripple the poor troxes.

    Should the atrox dark blue ability be int? sense? psy?
    Last edited by Cudus; Oct 20th, 2002 at 04:07:33.
    Cudus :: eqp

    PvP....It's not just a job, it's an adventure!

  11. #11
    Originally posted by Cudus
    Good idea, but would suck majorly for atroxes who has 3 dark blue abilites, vs nano/opi who has one.

    If atrox abilities gets "fixed" ie only 1 dark blue ability and going 150%/100/50% it might not toally cripple the poor troxes.

    Should the atrox dark blue ability be int? sense? psy?
    ONE dark blue for nanomage? both agility and strength are the darkest blue and the most expensive out of any breed for nanomage
    Nanomage: The OTHER other white meat

  12. #12
    And since we get 1/3 less hp per body dev point, nanomages also have the worst hp as well. so let's call that three dark blue skills. But hey, let's go back to the atroxes as they're the important ones, right? hehe
    Nanomage: The OTHER other white meat

  13. #13
    Oh sorry man, I was wrong.

    Do they both cap at 400? :P
    Cudus :: eqp

    PvP....It's not just a job, it's an adventure!

  14. #14
    Originally posted by Cudus
    Oh sorry man, I was wrong.

    Do they both cap at 400? :P
    Nope, but the atrox caps are stupid. they should be raised at least 50 points no matter what happens
    Nanomage: The OTHER other white meat

  15. #15
    I kind of like this suggestion anyhow.
    More diverse breeds, not just some +-10 pt in skills.
    Cudus :: eqp

    PvP....It's not just a job, it's an adventure!

  16. #16
    I've thought of and discarded this idea in the past. Worked it out in my mind and knew it was a bad idea for the game.

    Too Cookie Cutter for me.

    Would absolutely end the question as to what breed to choose for certain professions.

    I've always advocated 3 more 'abilities' be added that add additional 'dribble' down to relevent skills that each breed could raise equally but would have varying IP costs.

    Power
    Control
    Flexibility

    Power would relate to the strength and physical skills
    Control would relate to nano related skills
    Flexibility would relate to the evasive and dextrous required skills

    Any breed could raise any of these abilities 3 per level. Power would be Blue for Nanomage and Green for Atrox for ex.

    I don't like the idea of precluding any Breed/Profession combination. And the original post would do just that. It's especially scary after seeing what FuCom is doing in 14.6. As an example, every single new 2-Hand Edged weapon is 'Enforcer-Only'. Now, I got my 2-HE up to 877 at TL5 cap. That's respectable. Unfortunately, I can't take advantage of the fix for the skill. A change as proposed in the original post would only make matters worse. My 2HE skill might go up to 980 as a result of my Str/Sta, but it would not buy me a damn thing seeing what FuCom is doing. Having the NanoMage get +100 in NanoSkills would mean they get to use NanoFormulas that I could only dream of.

    IF FuCom had put in those better weapons and NOT restricted me from utilizing the skills that my attributes have the most dribble down effect in, this might very well work. Their inability to deal with a true skill system is very saddening. Everything that my breed helps me to get better with, FunCom has determined I have to not only suck at, but be crippled in.

    Having formulas I can't use owing to my breed is not a problem with me. That is, as long as my other strengths compensate to create a complete package. I would choose my profession and breed based on an image of what I want to do in-game. I want to rely a bit less on the pet and nuke and be a bit more involved. But, I could have 8 million in 2-Hand Edged and it would do squat for me assuming FuCom continues it's march towards destruction of the skill system.

    Dribble down can't be changed on a per-breed basis. What can be done is changing the breed caps and starting attributes. Giving a particular breed a visible advantage from the start and an even greater advantage at the end is fine.

    The main issue you are wrestling with Psi, is that your 10-pt, or whatever it is, startup boost in Int and Psy equates to only around a 3 to 4 point nanoskill advantage until you hit breed caps. That is hardly noticeable during the leveling process. A 12 point nanoskill advantage would always be noticed until breed caps.

    Look at the end-game and it's not as bad if you compare Nano and Atrox. Nano has a +112 point Int/Psy advantage over Atrox. That's between 30 and 40 extra points in each and every nanoskill. Quite noticeable and something I'm willing to deal with as an Atrox. I think you'll agree that most feel the Nanomage's real concern lies with the Solitus and Opifex over whom they have a piddly 32 point Int advantage giving them only around 8 more in Nanoskills.

    I would suggest at least a 12 point increase in the starting Int/Psy of the Nanomage and an increase in the cap for Nanomage to 540 Int/Psy.

    This lets them always have a noticeable difference in what nanos they use, lets them use better armor to protect their frail physiques, and increases their advantage at the end-game.

    But, to change the structure of the dribble down from what it is now would only penalize certain combinations without offering any recompense and offer bonuses to other combinations without offering any penalty. That's the kind of thing that leads to min-maxing, 'ideal combinations, cookie-cutter gameplay, and (IMHO) a more boring game.

    I never want to be involved with any game (or most any other challenging activity) where what you have to do at any step of your career is a 'no brainer'.
    Last edited by Bionitrous; Oct 20th, 2002 at 05:52:24.

  17. #17
    "But, to change the structure of the dribble down from what it is now would only penalize certain combinations without offering any recompense and offer bonuses to other combinations without offering any penalty. That's the kind of thing that leads to min-maxing, 'ideal combinations, cookie-cutter gameplay, and (IMHO) a more boring game."

    ----------------

    Well as far as I'm concerned anyone who makes an Atrox NT or MP under the *current* breed structure is definitely a min/max "ideal combinations" player in the truest sense of the word.

    It can be argued that Funcom is instituting Profession limitations on items BECAUSE the system doesn't cause people to naturally flow into their expected paths.

    The system I proposed wouldn't penalize anybody really.

    If someone started an Atrox NT, they probably did it for the superior hitpoints and better weapon skills...well guess what...they'll have EVEN BETTER weapon skills and hit points. They'll be EVEN BETTER at being the soldier/nuker.

    The person who will be rewarded most though is the NANOMAGE NT PLAYER with an extra 50 or 100 points to nano skills and bunch of other bonuses...this is the player who chose his breed by intuition and expected it to be a common sense choice.

    Under enhanced "dribble down" a Nanomage NT would automatically get what they need to be better nanobot users.

    Nanomages would get:

    1) Higher attack ratings with nanos to overcome high resistance from players and mobs.

    2) Faster casting times.

    3) More nano pool.

    4) Higher nano resistance by default.

    Ta-da...thats practically EVERYTHING a nanomage should be better at doing than other breeds. And they would get it *automatically*, as an increasing advantage as they level, and Funcom doesn't really have to do anything.

    Same thing with Enforcer. There are no cookie cutters here. Nanomage Enforcer? Nothing stopping you at all from making one. In fact, with enhanced "dribble down" you're an even BETTER nanomage enforcer than before. You have more Nano Pool to convert to HP, you can use higher qlvl nanos to help make up the skill difference between you and other breeds.

    The way things are now and where they are headed....is that under the 14.6 setup a nanomage enforcer is theoretically the best choice because a Nano has about 1800-2000 more nano than an Atrox. This is equal to a 7000 hitpoint bonus over time using Mongo Crush without any cost reducers and a 5000 hitpoint advantage over an Atrox after subtracting the latter's natural hp bonus.

    The person who will be rewarded by enhanced "dribble down" is the ATROX ENFORCER...the player who chose his breed by intuition and expected it to be a common sense choice. The biggest and baddest weapons should be accessible to Atrox characters. Thats their description in the creation room. They'd have a 75-100 (or 150-200) weapon skill difference with a Nano enforcer PLUS they could use the biggest and baddest weapons sooner...in fact the nanomage and other breeds might be locked out of using some weapons completely . One player chose to emphasize weapons, the other nanos.

    Or how about the Doc class. Under the current system its Solitus all the way. Under 14.6, it will be Nano. With my system here, there will be a reason to play a Doc of ANY breed...reasons that exist BEYOND the role-playing *novelty* that most people choose Atrox or Opifex.

    Atrox MP. You want to play a warrior/priest? Guess what...you're an EVEN BETTER one than before, your selection of weaponry just increased by a wide margin.

    But the Nanomage MP's. Hey...maybe we'll actually be better than the Atrox at using nano skills ....might even be able to actually land an NSD with the help of a sizable breed nano skill bonus.

    It works for others breeds.

    Opifex would get:

    1) Higher evades

    2) Higher initiatives

    3) Higher stealth bonuses

    4) Higher proficiency with fast or assassin type weapons and special attacks.

    This covers practically EVERYTHING you'd expect the dodgy and sneaky Opifex to do better than every other breed. It would be an advantage built into their character, increasing as they level.

    Enhanced "dribble down" helps this game MAKE SENSE.
    Last edited by Psiraven; Oct 20th, 2002 at 08:01:35.
    MP's should be FEARED.

  18. #18
    Totally agree with Psiraven, very nice ideas. Also the atrox ability cap on dark blue skills should be raised to at least 440, no matter what happens.

    Nice one Psi

    Rav

  19. #19
    you know i think this is a great idea if only one thing was fixed first

    MULTI-RANGED

    because opifex advens would be the only ones possible to equip a ql 200 in the off hand and only maybe......



    Fix Multiranged

  20. #20
    Explain to me how this would be any different from changing breed attribute caps +- 50%. (I am aware of armor requirements, but at the cap points now, any character can equip 200 armor based on green attributes).
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