Funcom , why do you penalize and nerf PVMers over PVPers issues... (NSD NERF)

[Gatester]

I don't think NSD would stop every attack it has either, just certain effects. The thing has massive NR too, so having an easier to land NSD would be way better anyways, but I think it should have some sort of target lockout rather than a caster lockout, otherwise it's too easy to avoid it. With 15 seconds on and 45 seconds off it should honestly be a guaranteed cast in PVE content.

[Obtena]

Please explain to me how having a 25% uptime is going to help when it'll still be a crapshoot of when to cast it? Say I cast it every time I can, to get the most uptime on it, but then I end up missing the cast because the 15 seconds I chose were the wrong 15 seconds.

There is nothing to explain. Your description is actually indicative of what is exactly wrong with tools like the current version of NSD. You missed the point entirely ....

I don't think there should be a way to 'shut down' anything permanently with any tool. It's stupid gaming. Maybe it worked in 2001 when expectations where simply 'Hey, I can log in and move around'. I haven't played a more current MMO with anything that has the effect or timescales that stuff in AO has. This 'digital' approach to ON/OFF, all-or-nothing effects is one of the things that makes AO feel really dated and holding it back. With the proposed NSD, you would cast it to give you a breathing space KNOWING your opponent couldn't cast in that period of time. In otherwords, you would have to THINK of the appropriate times when it would be needed instead of spamming it. That might seem like a novel approach to AO gamers in this age but really, it's pretty satisfying to have tools that you consciously use. It's quite engaging

[Traderjill]

I don't think there should be a way to 'shut down' anything permanently with any tool. It's stupid gaming. Maybe it worked in 2001 when expectations where simply 'Hey, I can log in and move around'. I haven't played a more current MMO with anything that has the effect or timescales that stuff in AO has. This 'digital' approach to ON/OFF, all-or-nothing effects is one of the things that makes AO feel really dated and holding it back. With the proposed NSD, you would cast it to give you a breathing space KNOWING your opponent couldn't cast in that period of time. In otherwords, you would have to THINK of the appropriate times when it would be needed instead of spamming it. That might seem like a novel approach to AO gamers in this age but really, it's pretty satisfying to have tools that you consciously use. It's quite engaging

The reason why we have on/off or all-or-nothings is because most encounters don't have nano indicators. There are a few rare situations that I can think of off the top of my head (like Vortex where the boss spams vicinity before fearing and one of the bosses in S7 where you have to sit down periodically). Besides that, there's no way for us to actively/intelligently decide on when to use our toolsets based off of when the boss will use theirs.

Let me flip over to a world of warcraft encounter. Those encounters require a high level of raid awareness as its not just about being there.. you have to use your toolset at the right time. Bosses/mobs have casting bars and you have to interrupt casting or silence them, remove spells from the boss that buff their attack speed or damage, etc.. all while doing your normal roles (of tank, healer or dps) and crowd controlling as needed.

If AO had those types of cues then we wouldn't need an all or nothing shutdown. As it is, we're stuck with the complete shutdown but chance of resist option rather than the intelligent 'shutdown as needed based on your awareness of the situation' that you have in most modern MMO's.

In other words I agree with what you're saying in some ways but Funcom shouldn't just change the way our nanos work without changing the bosses as well (i.e. adding some cues so we can intelligently decide when/where to use our tools).

[Psikie]

I think the changes are just inline with what we have already seen previously, much for the same reasons we have heard previously. If the philosophy that debuffs are not spammable but more widely applicable, seems to me this change hits the mark.

That's exactly why endgame mobs have these specific immunities.
have to remember these changes are the final word here. It's one change is just part of the whole bunch over a period of time.

Shamefully disappointing.

First, lets be realistic here. NSD does not have very much effect as is. Only for a handfull (3-5) situations is it helpfull at all.

Now that aside, reducing the duration to 15s in theory would be acceptable IF it were remotely more usefull or usable in say 10-15 situations.

Now the problem is the fact that something that is very rarely usefull is being changed to becoming useless in the FEW situations where it WAS usefull with nothing in return.

THAT is the problem is the change for NSD is planned BEFORE any mobs are changed, which because of FC's track record on fixes MP's fear mob changes will not come for 5 yrs or never. So we basically are getting a semi usefull nano relegated to useless for the fore-see-able future.

[Psikie]

There is nothing to explain. Your description is actually indicative of what is exactly wrong with tools like the current version of NSD. You missed the point entirely ....

I don't think there should be a way to 'shut down' anything permanently with any tool. It's stupid gaming.

How do feel about calms, charms, fears, or roots?

[Obtena]

How do feel about calms, charms, fears, or roots?

Depends. I already said I don't think there should be things that shut down things in the game. The timescales on many of the nanos are ridiculous. The only thing that saves them from OP is that most break on something.

There are ALOT of things in this game that need the same treatment NSD is getting. I'm hoping Genele goes through with them.

[Obtena]

First, lets be realistic here. NSD does not have very much effect as is. Only for a handfull (3-5) situations is it helpfull at all.

Bad tool is bad.

Now that aside, reducing the duration to 15s in theory would be acceptable IF it were remotely more usefull or usable in say 10-15 situations.

No argument there.

Now the problem is the fact that something that is very rarely usefull is being changed to becoming useless in the FEW situations where it WAS usefull with nothing in return.

That's a consequence of the approach Genele is taking to do system changes.

[Obtena]

In other words I agree with what you're saying in some ways but Funcom shouldn't just change the way our nanos work without changing the bosses as well (i.e. adding some cues so we can intelligently decide when/where to use our tools).

That's not unreasonable but I don't feel that what mobs do are the only ques available to when it would be necessary to use a tool. Healing is a perfect example. Of course, that's a reactionary thing but NSD could be reactionary as well. Do you want 15 seconds of guaranteed shutdown on the mob? The answer to that could be what the team health is like, who's stunned. Who needs time to regain nano before the next big boss cast. Whatever. Depending on how drastic the changes, people might have to take what they think and know about AO and forget about it. If your tools are changed, they just won't do the same thing they did before. System changes are all about everyone's stuff changing. It's probably going to make a few people l2p all over.

[Traderjill]

NSD could be reactionary as well.

You're right, it could be reactionary.. but it isn't. People aren't complaining about a game suggestion. this is a pre-announced change to the MP toolset that is set to be released with the next major patch (18.7- New Player Experience).

If your tools are changed, they just won't do the same thing they did before.

Again, another if scenario that hasn't been announced by anyone at Funcom. They have, however, clearly announced what changes they are planning to do and it doesn't include a re-purposing of NSD nor did I see the addition of any nano that could be used by MP's on a reactionary basis.

System changes are all about everyone's stuff changing. It's probably going to make a few people l2p all over.

I think most of us here are intelligent enough to understand that changes to one profession can't be viewed in a vacumn. HOWEVER, Funcom is notoriously slow on making changes.. I can't stress enough how far off their definition of Soon is from almost every human on Earth. So they are making changes to MP's that might make sense a year or 5 down the line BUT in the interim, is a huge nerf as its taken a tool that is at least useful in 5 situations....and making it useful in 0.

[Psikie]

I feel the 15s duration would be fine if NSD change was not going to be a crap shoot for use. If affected bosses all had some que similar to DB/xan bosses then that would be fine with me.

But the proposed changes makes NSD a matter of luck in timing it's use, unless you have 4 mp's in team...which would never happen.

I would even go so far as saying I don't mind the changes if mobs were changed so nsd could affect more of them also and take my chances with luck.

But to make the proposed change and NOT change any mobs that could be affected is just a slap in the face. I am not willing to sign off on that kind of nerf.

You can't argue that NSD changes are for the best because it will also allow "XYZ" when there is no time table for when "XYZ" will be implemented....if ever.

Now if the changes were being done properly, it would be changes to "XYZ" testing on how that works with more mobs being affected by NSD and THEN changes to NSD 15s with cooldown if it is deemed OP in current form.

ALSO I would add that with 15s up time resistance "should" be 90% to at least gaurantee that it can be up 1/4 time as opposed to it being resisted and still having local cooldown on MP.

***EDIT I would also bet that every single MP would be ok with a reactionary version change to NSD that would cancel out or wipe certain nano effects from bosses such as beast/apf boss shields or cancel xan morph/player charms for 15s.

[Esssch]

That's not unreasonable but I don't feel that what mobs do are the only ques available to when it would be necessary to use a tool. Healing is a perfect example. Of course, that's a reactionary thing but NSD could be reactionary as well. Do you want 15 seconds of guaranteed shutdown on the mob? The answer to that could be what the team health is like, who's stunned. Who needs time to regain nano before the next big boss cast. Whatever. Depending on how drastic the changes, people might have to take what they think and know about AO and forget about it. If your tools are changed, they just won't do the same thing they did before. System changes are all about everyone's stuff changing. It's probably going to make a few people l2p all over.

You're getting hung up on this "it shuts down everything" aspect and completely ignoring the "it doesn't actually affect 95% of anything in the entire game" aspect. For PvM, we lose usefulness on the very few bosses that are affected by NSD and don't gain anything on any other bosses, because they're still unaffected by NSD. So a massive nerf for PvM, since having a nano that by definition you have to cast before the cast is useless when we have no way of knowing when the cast will be. And a massive nerf for PvP, because NSD removals aren't being changed. You'll need several MPs to have a remote chance of shutting down anyone with those perks for even 15 seconds.

[Obtena]

You're getting hung up on this "it shuts down everything" aspect and completely ignoring the "it doesn't actually affect 95% of anything in the entire game" aspect.

I'm well aware of it. That's why I don't see a problem with the proposal to change it. There's absolutely NO possibility of NSD being made into a more applicable (re. useful) tool with it's current duration and effect.

[Psikie]

There's absolutely NO possibility of NSD being made into a more applicable (re. useful) tool with it's current duration and effect.

LOL As currently written with the NPE update...

There's absolutely NO possibility of NSD being made into a more applicable (re. useful) tool with it's FUTURE duration and effect either.

[Obtena]

Is that because you know what all the system changes are going to be or you're just attempting to be funny?

[Traderjill]

Posted this link earlier in the thread but think no one read it.. so I'll just quote it

Okies.
After all the fuzz about the news of NSD nerf in the NPE patch, I talked with Genele and she sugested me to make a thread to ask you all:
Which encounters and effects you would want to be shutdown by NSD?

I'd sugest a report format as:

• Name of Encounter - Mob - Effect: Why do you think its reasonable (this is not needed but would be well apreciated)

While devs have no manpower to beat a rework on all mobs right now, they are willing to check and change a bunch of then in regards of NSD immunity.

[Esssch]

There's absolutely NO possibility of NSD being made into a more applicable (re. useful) tool with it's current duration and effect.

Fixed that for you. Yes, tools like this could be balanced around a lower duration. Currently they're balanced (as much as anything in AO can be called balanced) around a higher duration. We are getting a duration reduction, a pretty massive one, with no other changes. Having a crapshoot for our one semi-useful debuff is simply bad game design, though judging by FC's previous track record and ability to listen to feedback in the past, I don't see anything swaying their decision. So good job, you successfully argued for a nerf for the profession least needing a nerf. Pat yourself on the back, bud. Put it on your CV, "July 2013 - Won an argument on the AO forums for the 1st time"

Posted this link earlier in the thread but think no one read it.. so I'll just quote it

No one read it, but somehow both Psikie and myself posted within 2 hours of the thread being created?

[Traderjill]

No one read it, but somehow both Psikie and myself posted within 2 hours of the thread being created?

TBH, I didn't read the suggestions, just the main post that I quoted so I didn't know that you and Psikie had posted there. The conversation going back and forth between you and Obtena and Psikie kinda gave me the impression that one or more of you weren't aware of it.

[Psikie]

Is that because you know what all the system changes are going to be or you're just attempting to be funny?

The problem is there are no system changes planned with the NPE...only a plan to change NSD. That is worse than a nerf, because the other "system" changes are not even being introduced to test the balance of the new NSD.

If the "system" changes to mobs affected by NSD were being introduced also I would reserve judgement until testing. But there is not going to be anything to test! Only a serious hit to NSD usefullness.

I do not have any confidence that changes to mobs will ever happen given FC track record in general. It could be 5 years and 12 more game directors before the thread ever gets looked to change mobs affected by new nerfed NSD.

That in a nutshell is the problem. We are not arguing against the change on principal, we are arguing against the change to NSD without changes to mobs affected by new NSD at same time.

[Obtena]

That in a nutshell is the problem. We are not arguing against the change on principal, we are arguing against the change to NSD without changes to mobs affected by new NSD at same time.

Everyone is going to see a whole lot of that as the system changes are starting to trickle in. Nothing is going to enable everything to change at once and make sense. That wasn't even going to happen with the 'first' re-balance.

[Psikie]

Everyone is going to see a whole lot of that as the system changes are starting to trickle in. Nothing is going to enable everything to change at once and make sense. That wasn't even going to happen with the 'first' re-balance.

Fair enough, but even you can't argue that this is nothing short of a serious nerf to a rarely used proffession by removing the ONLY utility nano the proffession has in 3 end game encounters. Making it usefullness to zero encounters until proposed changes to other bosses occur. (which might be 3-5 years from now or never)