Fixer Team Meep at Towers

[Sromp]

Huh? I might be misunderstanding what you wrote but are you saying meeps aren't possible in PvM?
...
you realize not everybody sits in a kite team on a hill in Elysium and tries to convince themselves that's really "PvM"? RK is a thing that exists.

Certainly. I, and most of my friends leveled outside SL. However, your post implies that PvM in general is at risk. On the contrary, the PvM situations where team meep is an effective and useful response (let alone instant, since this seems popular), are a small subset with a small population.

Fear. Last time I checked, they still had it.

Malaise alone without all the tapes would slow down the cast time of a meep considerably

Let's put a number on "considerably" so people know how hard it is to meep from a crat.

[Contra]

3 debuffs and he's at 8sec cast time

[Ahndracorvid]

Certainly. I, and most of my friends leveled outside SL. However, your post implies that PvM in general is at risk. On the contrary, the PvM situations where team meep is an effective and useful response (let alone instant, since this seems popular), are a small subset with a small population.

This would make sense from a TL7 perspective, but not everyone playing this game is a fully established veteran. Not to mention what would happen if we ever think about having newcomers, who would probably have to level and grind and whatever for years until they eventually catch up.

My post implies that PvM in general is at risk because this is what I genuinely believe based on my personal experiences, and those of friends or teammates I've grouped with. You are more than welcome to disagree if you have had different experiences, and/or convince me that yours are more common than mine. But until you or someone else manages to convince me that it might not be as bad as I am concerned it would be, I kinda have to go with what I and people I know have experienced. *shrug*

Let's put a number on "considerably" so people know how hard it is to meep from a crat.

I would be happy to test this if someone wants to help me clarify. I remember it causing problems but mid-battle wasn't a great place to try and time how long it took to cast it.

3 debuffs and he's at 8sec cast time

If you have actually gotten this number from testing, it's only 2 off from what the OP originally proposed and what some others have claimed is too much if it were made the capped casting time. I'm pretty sure 8 extra seconds would give you more of an opportunity to tackle the griefing idiots who have resulted in threads like this getting posted in the first place, considering the complaints seem to be centered on how fixers can "insta-meep" everyone out as soon as trouble shows up.

How fast was his cast time with only Malaise of Zeal?

[Toyhazard]

How fast was his cast time with only Malaise of Zeal?

Just tested, still insta on my fixer.

[Sromp]

This would make sense from a TL7 perspective, but not everyone playing this game is a fully established veteran. Not to mention what would happen if we ever think about having newcomers, who would probably have to level and grind and whatever for years until they eventually catch up.

I don't disagree that it'll affect things, but this is not about veterans, newcomers, or ruining PvM. Nobody in SL or LoX can team meep, and the fraction of the population even fighting through RK missions and mort borgs, let alone routinely meeping without getting team kicked, is small. This thread needs some perspective.

Malaise alone

3 debuffs and he's at 8sec cast time

3 debuffs? That escalated quickly.
Let's sort things out as they come in, though. Yes, fixer meep is instant on full def through malaise.

[Ahndracorvid]

Just tested, still insta on my fixer.

Fair enough. I swear I do remember it making a difference more than once though. Oh well.

I don't disagree that it'll affect things, but this is not about veterans, newcomers, or ruining PvM.

It *is* about those things... but it also isn't.

The OP's thread is about griefing at towers, which isn't about those things.

But the proposed solution to that issue has an affect on those things.

Veterans are less likely to go do the types of PvM that newcomers will get into and that results in veterans sometimes not understanding why stuff like this could be a big issue for newcomers or levelers, or just anyone not at the stage where they loiter at Bor grid all day. The game needs to remain friendly to newcomers as well as veterans, or we'll just lose the newcomers before they become veterans (more than we do already).

Nobody in SL or LoX can team meep, and the fraction of the population even fighting through RK missions and mort borgs, let alone routinely meeping without getting team kicked, is small. This thread needs some perspective.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I firmly believe that being a paid veteran sometimes makes people lose track of what things look like from the opposite perspective, and that there is a "silent majority" of players who a 10 second cap on cast time would affect, but who for whatever reason do not read or post on these forums. The fraction of the population fighting through RK content might therefore be bigger than you realize.

I'm opposing a 10 second hard cap on cast times because I think it would be too much of a game-changer for those players. I don't see a need to make it that high.

3 seconds would sound more reasonable.

That and an anti-meep tower should solve the OP's problem, no?

[Gatester]

Some examples of where they have been useful other than S10:

• RK team missions
• Inner Sanctum
• Mort/PW borgs
• RK raids such as Mercs
• Endgame raids such as APF

I could go on...

You say it is useful in all these locations, but is it even realistic to consider team instant grid warps in that way? Let's look at your Mercenary Raid example, in which you have a group which was not prepared enough to complete the encounter, something goes wrong in which the team is going to die, and the group wants to instantly evac. The raid would then have to regroup with it's killed members, wait until they rez, rebuff, reorganize, and then continue the raid. How is this any different from the raid wiping, regrouping, rezzing, rebuffing, reorganizing, and then continuing the raid?

Additionally, would it not be even more convenient to use something like team parrot or simply running to the nearby zone barrier to lose aggro so that you do not have to take a longer trip to return to the Mercenary Raid location? I think that same logic will apply to most raids, in which your progress is limited by death just as much as it is limited by meeping and having to return to the location you evacuated from. The only exceptions I can really think of consist of any sort of alien encounter in which death adds a "penalty" count. In the end, it is an unnecessary tool that I feel simply gives the illusion of value because it works quickly rather than efficiently.


The amount of content in AO does primarily consist of shadowlands and LoX content as well, locations where you cannot meep your team and are therefore irrelevant. Furthermore, you have to consider what content is going to be team based as well, because arguments regarding soloed content or even content typically done without a fixer will also be irrelevant. The last issue would be content in which you do not have "enough" fixers to meep every member of every team in the raid, in which case your group meeping to safety only leaves the group you left behind even less capable of surviving and therefore weakens your raid rather than supports it. In the end you have a small list of extreme examples.


Compared to it's impact upon and functionality within the PVP environment, it has a dramatic effect on the goal of PVP itself, to kill another player. This is the only tool which instantly allows a team to escape from death without effort or penalty. Given the importance and use of this tool in PVE and PVP environs, I think it is clear when evaluated objectively that the tool's function is vastly more relevant to PVP than PVE content.


If need be then I will say what I honestly feel that many may not like to hear, but I could care less about a few froobs who feel they need instant team meeps for their raids. The alternative is hardly any worse than them being unprepared and failing anyways.


This leaves the argument as to whether fixers need team meep as it is for PVP or if it should be weakened for PVP. Can team meep help win wars? Perhaps, although I feel a raid that relies on such tools is doomed to fail anyways it can help a group stay mobile if they are only at a slight advantage and could eventually win a war. I do feel that fixer AOE snares, NCU wiping nanos, evade debuffs, HoTs, NCU, runspeed buffs, and the best support CC removal tool in AO are all more critical in leading a fixer's group to victory, however, and that changes to meep will not reduce their functionality significantly.

[Ahndracorvid]

Hoo boy, hi there fellow wall-of-texter. Here we go...

You say it is useful in all these locations, but is it even realistic to consider team instant grid warps in that way? Let's look at your Mercenary Raid example, in which you have a group which was not prepared enough to complete the encounter, something goes wrong in which the team is going to die, and the group wants to instantly evac. The raid would then have to regroup with it's killed members, wait until they rez, rebuff, reorganize, and then continue the raid. How is this any different from the raid wiping, regrouping, rezzing, rebuffing, reorganizing, and then continuing the raid?

It is different because the meep allows for more raid members to survive. You of all people know how much time I used to spend with Tlfiveplus, so you should also be aware of how many times I've actually been in the situation where a meep might be needed at a Mercs raid.

It's not a case of coming to the encounter like a bunch of noobs who don't know what they're doing and then failing and needing an evac, it's a case of things sometimes going wrong and damage mitigation being needed. Meeping the teams out and then fgridding them back in saves time because less people need to rezz.

Honestly, I thought it would be obvious that if more people actually live then it would be quicker to regroup.

Additionally, would it not be even more convenient to use something like team parrot or simply running to the nearby zone barrier to lose aggro so that you do not have to take a longer trip to return to the Mercenary Raid location? I think that same logic will apply to most raids, in which your progress is limited by death just as much as it is limited by meeping and having to return to the location you evacuated from. The only exceptions I can really think of consist of any sort of alien encounter in which death adds a "penalty" count. In the end, it is an unnecessary tool that I feel simply gives the illusion of value because it works quickly rather than efficiently.

No, parrot would not be more convenient or everyone would just yalm up while whoever has agg is busy kiting for dear life. Flying to the zone border and then flying back and then trying to find each other is slower in practice than simply meeping to the grid, exiting at Bor and then being fgridded straight back.

How many of Tlfiveplus' events have you attended?

The amount of content in AO does primarily consist of shadowlands and LoX content as well, locations where you cannot meep your team and are therefore irrelevant.

I'm just gonna have to say the same thing to you as I said earlier: we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Just because you spend more of your time in SL/LoX doesn't mean everyone else does.

Furthermore, you have to consider what content is going to be team based as well, because arguments regarding soloed content or even content typically done without a fixer will also be irrelevant. The last issue would be content in which you do not have "enough" fixers to meep every member of every team in the raid, in which case your group meeping to safety only leaves the group you left behind even less capable of surviving and therefore weakens your raid rather than supports it. In the end you have a small list of extreme examples.

A full RI would require 6 fixers. We usually had more than enough, and on the occasions when we didn't we had engies to warp back the unlucky ones or the ones who got lost trying your "just run away" idea.

I disagree with your view that the examples are extreme. These are examples I experienced regularly and still felt relevant when I turned from a froob to a subscriber. They felt routine rather than extreme.

Yes, you won't always have a fixer in your team and sometimes stuff happens. But the fact that the mechanic exists in the game and you ran into it regularly enough to be grateful for it makes it a good thing.

Compared to it's impact upon and functionality within the PVP environment, it has a dramatic effect on the goal of PVP itself, to kill another player.

Yes, I agree, but I have already asked why a PvP-centric solution can't be implemented for those situations which does not hurt other aspects of the game. Nobody seems to have really answered this question yet.

This is the only tool which instantly allows a team to escape from death without effort or penalty. Given the importance and use of this tool in PVE and PVP environs, I think it is clear when evaluated objectively that the tool's function is vastly more relevant to PVP than PVE content.

I disagree that the tool is "more relevant" to PvP than PvE. It is equally relevant in both, because whether you are meeping in PvE or PvP you are trying to stop your team from going splat.

The difference is what you say: in a big part of PvP is killing another player. Therefore it's easier for use of the tool to turn into abuse of a game mechanic, whereas in PvM it's more often "legitimate".

This only goes to show that the problem lies with PvP (again though, would like to remind y'all of the distinction I'd actually prefer to draw between people who enjoy PvP and people who are just griefing towers/backyard hugging/etc because that ain't PvP) and therefore whatever solution is implemented shouldn't unfairly affect PvM, where it hasn't caused a problem. In short, don't sweep the innocent up with the guilty.

If need be then I will say what I honestly feel that many may not like to hear, but I could care less about a few froobs who feel they need instant team meeps for their raids. The alternative is hardly any worse than them being unprepared and failing anyways.

You may not care about froobs and I may no longer participate regularly in froob raids or leveling content, but everyone here should remember that the pool of players you risk alienating with these changes is where our future subscribers come from.

I have never understood this elitism in the paid community against newcomers, leveling players, froobs, etc. If you want the game to survive you should be more welcoming of them, or at least have some empathy for their perspective.

This leaves the argument as to whether fixers need team meep as it is for PVP or if it should be weakened for PVP.

I like how you are now talking about this problem in its proper context: PvP. Can we keep it in this proper context when discussing solutions instead of using too-broad strokes?

Can team meep help win wars? Perhaps, although I feel a raid that relies on such tools is doomed to fail anyways it can help a group stay mobile if they are only at a slight advantage and could eventually win a war. I do feel that fixer AOE snares, NCU wiping nanos, evade debuffs, HoTs, NCU, runspeed buffs, and the best support CC removal tool in AO are all more critical in leading a fixer's group to victory, however, and that changes to meep will not reduce their functionality significantly.

Anti-meep towers would render meeps less viable in tower wars anyway. Again, this would be a more appropriate response than capping cast times at 10 seconds for EVERYBODY.

Incidentally, did you see where I agreed your suggestion for a 3 second cast time would be better than the original proposal of 10 seconds? I don't think I was the only person who said they'd be more open to that idea.

3 seconds would sound more reasonable.

That and an anti-meep tower should solve the OP's problem, no?

{Editted by Haquihana - cleaned it up a bit.}

[Gatester]

When I say the majority of content is in SL/LoX I mean the physical content itself. Where players spend the majority of their time, if anywhere, would likely be AFK in either borealis or old athens...

I did not say I do not care about froobs, what I do not care about are froobs who feel they are entitled to unnecessary abilities which can negatively effect the content subscribers are participating in. It may sound harsh, but froobs should not be considered over paid players. As for froobs being potential "future paid players", the times in which that is the case have limited relevance here. Most of the froobs who are participating in these high-end raids where they may feel team-meep is necessary have no intention of subbing or are not actually froobs at all (having paid accounts). Newer players are not going to quit AO and never sub because of a lack of instant team grid warping nanos, let alone a simple nerf to the program.

I know more players would be open to my suggestion over the OP's, but my point is that even the OP's idea is perfectly reasonable in the context of PVE changes only. Trying to use any form of PVE arguments against these suggestions are only drawing into a debate of reality over perception. This is not a tool commonly used by paid players, 220 fixers, leveling fixers, or fixers in most areas of PVE content. The primary use of this tool in PVE content occurs by froobs in a limited number of raids.

Should team meep be allowed to exist for froobs who raid RK content while it has potentially negative effects on PVP content for all players? My answer is no, hence my arguments try to eliminate those discussions altogether and focus on it's functionality for paid players or PVPers. What I try to do is ask myself "If this nano/tool/ability did not exist, would I ever see someone else or myself suggesting the creation/addition of said nano/tool/ability?" I can not see the suggestion being made for PVP content (at least in it's current form but perhaps so in an adjusted/nerfed form), nor could I see anyone asking for team-instant grid warps as an escape tool for PVE content. Try using this question to answer many other questions and you can see how it may be effective for determining whether something is necessary or potentially overpowered as well.

[Notcrattey]

You know most teams who are really bringing down some towers will not meep to a small/even group. So you will have the opportunity to shut down the fixer. Problem is clans can't seem to do anything without completely dwarfing the opposition.

Also consider this: Say we were to entirely remove meep, all a grief team would have to do is sit there and die. Rez. Then go straight to another site. It really doesn't take long.

[Lazy]

Seems to just be a vocal minority crying about an issue that doesn't exist.

[Ahndracorvid]

When I say the majority of content is in SL/LoX I mean the physical content itself. Where players spend the majority of their time, if anywhere, would likely be AFK in either borealis or old athens...

If you're a TL7 veteran with nothing to do but bitch about things, sure. Join that Omni trox fixer's club. Or is it solder? I can't remember. You'll probably know who I'm talking about if you've logged any non-Clan toons into Bor lately.

I did not say I do not care about froobs, what I do not care about are froobs who feel they are entitled to unnecessary abilities which can negatively effect the content subscribers are participating in. It may sound harsh, but froobs should not be considered over paid players.

Except this change wouldn't just be affecting froobs. They were just the example that came to mind soonest.

As for froobs being potential "future paid players", the times in which that is the case have limited relevance here. Most of the froobs who are participating in these high-end raids where they may feel team-meep is necessary have no intention of subbing or are not actually froobs at all (having paid accounts).

Almost every Tlfiveplus veteran I know is living proof that you are incorrect. There's only a couple of reasons why people think froobs with endgame RK toons won't one day subscribe:

1. Because idiots like that Neutral who used to post here under multiple names with similar spellings was a froob elitist whose sole aim seemed to be to denounce the paid game and rave on about how much better they thought the froob game was. When you have very little other representation because you don't pay and can't post, there's not much you can do to counteract such idiots who make it look like all froobs act this way.

Newsflash: they don't.

2. In addition, when froobs do upgrade (and if nothing else this thread should be proof enough that they do) they tend to keep their froob accounts froob and start from the beginning on a fresh paid account. This is actually the smarter thing to do, as leveling up from scratch not only saves you the headache of having to catch up to your paid peers at level 200 on a pretty much empty toon (research, AI levels, etc) but enables you to get a better experience out of it (you don't miss out on doing lowbie content at the intended level). However, it also means that people who see that your froob toons are still froob mistakenly believe you haven't gone paid or have any intention to do so.

Granted, there will always be some players who don't or can't upgrade. But to say they are the majority is misguided considering how many new subscribers we have now who started out as froobs.

(3.) In regards to froobs with paid accounts not being froobs, you're assuming they don't still enjoy tackling RK content on their froob toons. That is a big part of why, when they upgrade, they tend to keep their froob accounts froob. If having a paid account means this change wouldn't affect them then I for one wouldn't be here still debating this with you in the first place.

Newer players are not going to quit AO and never sub because of a lack of instant team grid warping nanos, let alone a simple nerf to the program.

If they're new enough to never know it existed, perhaps. But you can bet there would be existing players who will be pissed off at a 10 second capped cast time in PvM.

I know more players would be open to my suggestion over the OP's, but my point is that even the OP's idea is perfectly reasonable in the context of PVE changes only. Trying to use any form of PVE arguments against these suggestions are only drawing into a debate of reality over perception. This is not a tool commonly used by paid players, 220 fixers, leveling fixers, or fixers in most areas of PVE content. The primary use of this tool in PVE content occurs by froobs in a limited number of raids.

Again, we're just going to have to disagree over this. My experiences differ from yours, and from those experiences I have deduced that actually this tool remains more relevant in PvE than you seem to think.

Once more, there is nothing stopping us from coming up with a solution that functions differently for PvM and PvP. Why steamroll over other aspects of the game when you can avoid doing so?

Should team meep be allowed to exist for froobs who raid RK content while it has potentially negative effects on PVP content for all players?

Yes, because you can solve the PvP problems (which, again, I have agreed with you are an issue) without breaking the game in other areas. Also, that's "for *everyone* who does PvM", not only froobs.

My answer is no, hence my arguments try to eliminate those discussions altogether and focus on it's functionality for paid players or PVPers.

My answer is yes, hence my suggestions to make a distinction between PvP and PvM when implementing a solution. It's really not that hard. You're starting to sound like you just can't be bothered to draw this distinction because you don't have to deal with it in *your* gameplay.

What I try to do is ask myself "If this nano/tool/ability did not exist, would I ever see someone else or myself suggesting the creation/addition of said nano/tool/ability?" I can not see the suggestion being made for PVP content (at least in it's current form but perhaps so in an adjusted/nerfed form), nor could I see anyone asking for team-instant grid warps as an escape tool for PVE content.

You would have to take into account where this nano/tool/ability has existed in the past and/or whether it has previously been a signature ability of the prof in question.

People never bitched about meeps to this extent before now, which as far as I can tell suggests the recent tower griefing drama has brought things to a head. Clearly then, as already stated by someone else earlier, the problem is not necessarily with legitimate uses of this particular game mechanic, but the way it can be abused in this ONE scenario, and ultimately the people who use it to this effect.

Try using this question to answer many other questions and you can see how it may be effective for determining whether something is necessary or potentially overpowered as well.

Try having some empathy for other perspectives and you will see that it hurts nobody to draw a distinction between the way this mechanic works in PvP and PvM when suggesting a possible solution. We already have other things that are designed to be used only in PvP. What's one more?

[Ahndracorvid]

Thread summary of suggestions that everyone (possibly? Correct me if I'm wrong) can (mostly) agree on, because Gates'/my walls of text might have drowned out where we're up to:

- Anti-meep tower
- Capped cast time on team meep nanos of 3 seconds
- Separate change to meeps which will only affect PvP scenarios (eg. not being able to use the PvM meep while flagged or under <75% gas)

Thoughts/additions/edits?

[Toyhazard]

Logged on to this message today:

(12:17) Offline message from xxxxxx (Wed 26 Jun 2013 22:57 GMT)
(12:17) [xxxxxx]: Hello Dwix. This is GM xxxxxx. This message is an official warning that "Meeping" is considered to be a form of harassment. Further action of this type can result in account action being taken against you. Thank you for your understanding.

Seems like GM's still arent made aware of fact that its allowed if you are actually taking stuff down. This is quoted from Michi in the locked thread about meeping:

Those specifics I am not exactly privy to. My understanding is that in the entire history of Notum Wars, a very, very small amount of people have ever been punished for griefing, and one of the few cases was the inspiration behind my previous example of Q -> Meep -> Repeat.

If you press Q on a tower, do it with the intent to kill the tower(s), not to just cause disruptions.

In every field we attack we actually kill quiet alot of towers (or the entire field) and when numbers are even or close to that (Mort 9 and Mort 3 last night) we stay around and fight. We only meep when we see a group way bigger then the 2ish teams we have approaching us.

Ahh well, might aswell just ban me/paradise cause we're not gonna stop.

[wonderland]

Ahh well, might aswell just ban me/paradise cause we're not gonna stop.

PvP now stands for "Petition v Player."

[Vispa]

Clan's petitioning now for meep tactics and it's now considered bannable? lol... funny.

Why do i keep coming back...

Tower timer syncing is totally legit, meeping, on the other hand, horrible horrible crime ;(

[Sromp]

3 seconds would sound more reasonable.

That and an anti-meep tower should solve the OP's problem, no?

I don't even have a firm opinion on this. Team meep is one of Fixer's signature moves, and should be left alone. On the other hand, it's absurdly abused. I started posting because 90% of the thread is QQing clans, QQing omnis, QQing fixers, and absurd exaggerations.

Also consider this: Say we were to entirely remove meep, all a grief team would have to do is sit there and die. Rez. Then go straight to another site. It really doesn't take long.

Sure. Removing team meep wouldn't affect grief teams much. Dying is almost as fast. Lolwtf.

Problem is clans can't seem to do anything without completely dwarfing the opposition.

Clan's petitioning now for meep tactics and it's now considered bannable? lol... funny.
Tower timer syncing is totally legit, meeping, on the other hand, horrible horrible crime ;(

Didn't you know this is a faction-specific issue? Clan have never meeped from Omni zergs while griefing synced towers.

[FoolishManX]

I don't even have a firm opinion on this. Team meep is one of Fixer's signature moves, and should be left alone. On the other hand, it's absurdly abused. I started posting because 90% of the thread is QQing clans, QQing omnis, QQing fixers, and absurd exaggerations.


Sure. Removing team meep wouldn't affect grief teams much. Dying is almost as fast. Lolwtf.



Didn't you know this is a faction-specific issue? Clan have never meeped from Omni zergs while griefing synced towers.

This.

If FC wants to take away meep from Fixers, make GSF selfed, and remove all other run speed buffs out of the game. Remove the RS aspect out of Enf's rages, Adv's wolf, and make Fixer GSF/RS buffs selfed only and not TP'able by agents.

Let fixers be fast and nimble if you want to take away a nano that is part of what Fixers are supposed to be, a quick and nimble escape artist. Also why you are add it finish re-balancing all the professions instead of worrying about people getting annoying over not being able to insta splat everything. There are already ways to counter Fixers from instantly meeping. It's called an MP with NSD, Doctor/Crat/Enf/Agent for Initiative Debuffs, or crazy damage dealers like a NT. This doesn't even include all those shades/enfs out there with MR/stuns.

Maybe everyone should stop rolling the same 3-4 professions and following everyone like sheep.

[Contra]

The ways you can stop the fixer from meeping aren't an issue, lol. There are plenty of tools to disable them. The issue is them meeping when they see red dots on the map even before the defenders get in tabbing range. And doing this over and over and OVER for hours just so they can annoy the defending side, is considered harassement and is a bannable offense, as was stated by GMs.
If you want to please everyone with a fix to this exploit of game mechanics, remove fixer's ability to meep his team while in PvP gas. Boom, it's fixed! Froobs won't shout cause they can still save themselves and their teams in whatever PvM encounter they do and pvp fixers will have to deal with the fact that if defenders come they are the only ones able to escape.

[FoolishManX]

The ways you can stop the fixer from meeping aren't an issue, lol. There are plenty of tools to disable them. The issue is them meeping when they see red dots on the map even before the defenders get in tabbing range. And doing this over and over and OVER for hours just so they can annoy the defending side, is considered harassement and is a bannable offense, as was stated by GMs.
If you want to please everyone with a fix to this exploit of game mechanics, remove fixer's ability to meep his team while in PvP gas. Boom, it's fixed! Froobs won't shout cause they can still save themselves and their teams in whatever PvM encounter they do and pvp fixers will have to deal with the fact that if defenders come they are the only ones able to escape.

That depends on what you consider to be annoying. You know how many people hate dying and find it annoying? I have a follow up idea tot his thread and it's supporters. How about we remove rez completely so no one gets annoyed from death. How about we also make the defender immortal so they don't have to worry about dying and coming back. How about this, let's remove PVP completely. I get annoyed when people attack me when I am trying to attack towers. The defenders are the only ones who get the short end of the stick. It's not like the attackers have anything to worry about.

I, and literally 99% of the people I talk to find PvM annoying. Let's remove twinking and all those things I know some others find annoying. Let's make it so setups are as easy to obtain, make, and equip as they are in Auno/Xyphos. Basically, you click on the name of the item and you instantly have the item equipped so that hassle is eliminated. Let's not annoy anyone.

/carebear

PS: FC I am pretty sure every single player and even people who have quit are annoyed that you guys have yet to give us a re-balance or a new engine. There is a reason why this game is dying even after the final merge.

You allowed tower swapping for fixed timers to literally destroy an entire expansion pack. This is a game to us, but we pay for your bills. Try to make us want to stay until hamsters can run no more.

Listen to your customers, not a just faction.

PPS: Happy 12 years I guess...